A Reqeust for a walk toggle this Time

[Leferd]

In case people here don't know, Karkarov is one of the original principals of the IE Mod.

[oddrheia]

Perhaps we could approach the topic in new light:

 

If walk toggle was such a useless feature that nobody actually uses it, why do most western mmos have it?

 

If walk toggle was such a useless feature that nobody actually uses it, why do some reputable developers implement it post release on request? (Dragon Age: Inquisition is a shiny example. Shipped without, now has it)

 

I do not think anyone in this thread argues it is super important to everyone. We do argue it is of greater importance to some than was made evident before, and we want devs to take notice, while there is still some small chance to pen it in.

 

I'd urge the people who are a hostile to the idea to live and let live. It's a toggle for pete's sake, not a feature/design/lore/mechanics/graphic engine overhaul request.

[Leferd]

MMOs and DAI had multiple years of actual production with hundreds of developers and hundred million dollar+ budgets. Deadfire has less than a year for the actual production with a relatively small team and a minuscule budget.

 

*edit* which is not to say that it won't be added in a post release patch. Again, get to it when they can get to it, but its implementation shouldn't supersede more important core features and bug fixing.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Leferd

[NegativeEdge]

Characters sprinting around like a clown-car in IE games is awful. I'm currently playing Planescape and only toggle run for engaging enemies and backtracking - the walk animations are superior to the running ones and I get to enjoy these insanely beautiful and atmospheric environments as very high quality and cool sprites move through them. Nothing to do with immersion, I just enjoy the art. Barrelling past it is blasphemy, what's the hurry? my only complaint is no footsteps audio.

 

Planescape also discards the massive decline of tab-to-win highlighting added in lesser versions of BG & other IE games - another feature I'd like as a returning toggleable in POE2.

[oddrheia]

MMOs and DAI had multiple years of actual production with hundreds of developers and hundred million dollar+ budgets. Deadfire has less than a year for the actual production with a relatively small team and a minuscule budget.

 

I think you just deliberately choosing not to see my point.

 

Inquisition did have had higher production budget than Deadfire, but it was also built on a completely new engine.  Deadfire will not be.  It will be largely based on Pillars of Eternity 1.

 

 

Pillars of eternity 1 had a framework for pc party walking. Dragon Age: Inquisition had a framework for a pc party walking. Both showcased it in cutscenes.

 

The Inquisition devs chose to flip a switch to enable players to use it outside of cut scenes, and did it in a very very short time-frame after the game release. No matter the budgetary constrains, or lack or thereof, nobody does it for a feature that is insignificant to the player base.

 

Mmos have larger budgets than Pillars? Sure! But the percentage of role-players there isn't as large compared to say,  pvpes, progression/casual raiders, socializers, achievment hunters and players who drop by to see the story before they move on to the next best thing. Yet the feature is still included.

[Icesong]

In case people here don't know, Karkarov is one of the original principals of the IE Mod.

I had understood IE Mod is an amalgamation of mods that anyone can contribute to. So, I don't think it's remarkable that the other modders who worked on it didn't use it; there's probably lots of stuff in IE Mod they also don't use. I don't think it's relevant whether they used it or not, either. If he has any insight into the coding behind getting walking to work, I'd be interested in that. 

[oddrheia]

*edit* which is not to say that it won't be added in a post release patch. Again, get to it when they can get to it, but its implementation shouldn't supersede more important core features and bug fixing.

 

In all the honesty, I would be ok with it being added in a post release patch, but if you look at Pillars of Eternity 1 as a precedent, I am not hopeful. It is far more likely that if it doesn't get added on release, it never will. Ergo all the lobbying on my part, anyway.

 

The first request for a walk toggle for Pillars 1 surfaced during the early beta. After that, an occasional thread would pop up, and get ignored (unlike this one, thanks Aarik D and Josh!!!) The latest one was made on 20th of March 2016, just before final couple of patches, I believe.

[Leferd]

I'm not against its implementation, but as has been implied, there's a cost-benefit decision associated to its inclusion. Can Josh, Adam, or a producer assign resources for its implementation prior to release? Sure, absolutely. But at what cost? They have a tight schedule with limited resources to properly implement core gameplay elements.

 

Walking isn't a core gameplay feature for this game. It's condiments on the side. Cufflinks with a shirt. Mushrooms in a bolognese. A red headband on an irate Cliff Robinson. It adds some flavor and style to the game, but that's it.

 

Also consider MMOs and DAI. The primary exploration perspective is third person over-the-shoulder. It'd make more sense to include a walk option because "immersion" from a low angle personal view is more central to the game concept as you are exploring the game from the perspective of your character.

 

Eternity takes a more abstract isometric perspective, relying more on player imagination to fuel the immersive aspects. The player has the "God" view from above. The focus isn't on the player character exploring the sights on a personal level. Instead, it's a wide angle panorama of the area where the player is able to move the camera to view the map independently from the party.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Leferd

[oddrheia]

I'm not against its implementation, but as has been implied, there's a cost-benefit decision associated to its inclusion. Can Josh, Adam, or a producer assign resources for its implementation prior to release? Sure, absolutely. But at what cost? They have a tight schedule with limited resources to properly implement core gameplay elements.

 

Walking isn't a core gameplay feature for this game. It's condiments on the side. Cufflinks with a shirt. Mushrooms in a bolognese. A red headband on an irate Cliff Robinson. It adds some flavor and style to the game, but that's it.

 

 

 

I guess that's where I'll call myself an optimist and hope that time/resources needed for the walking toggle implementation are not so unreasonably high as to discard it.  It may be a 'cufflink on shirt', but so is some other flavor they adding to the game. I mean, there is an npc walking around lighting lanterns. It's cool as hell, but I could argue it's also not a 'core gameplay' feature, either.  It's a nice atmospheric immersion feature for sure, and I love it... but my point stands. Walking toggle is also about atmospheric immersion.

 

Also consider MMOs and DAI. The primary exploration perspective is third person over-the-shoulder. It'd make more sense to include a walk option because "immersion" from a low angle personal view is more central to the game concept as you are exploring the game from the perspective of your character.

 

Eternity takes a more abstract isometric perspective, relying more on player imagination to fuel the immersive aspects. The player has the "God" view from above. The focus isn't on the player character exploring the sights on a personal level. Instead, it's a wide angle panorama of the area where the player is able to move the camera to view the map independently from the party.

 

See, that's where you and I will never see eye to eye. For me the isometric view made the party dashing everywhere much more jarring than just moving faster in over the shoulder perspective. It was exactly because of the "God" view from above, that I could contrast the environment to what my party was doing.  They could run around like there is a fire somewhere in Defiance Bay, they could sneak around everywhere like skulking thieves, but they couldn't manage to walk...

Edited March 4, 2017 by oddrheia

[Leferd]

Well, I'll end with this. I hope Obsidian raises $4.98 million after the sixty days so they get the option to spend resources to properly implement many of the C-Level fixes and features (including a walk toggle) without having to commit to the resource black hole that is adding another companion.

[Cerebro83]

I agree on this one. I would love sea monsters and fishing, but don't care that much about a sidekick > companion conversion and would rather have some more quality of life and immersion features, like walking toggle, cyan circles for neutral NPCs, enchantable hats and helmets (so no one is forced to use the stupid looking ones just because they give bonuses) etc.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Cerebro83

[Grotesque]

the walk toggle should've been a stretch-goal.

[Karkarov]

 

In case people here don't know, Karkarov is one of the original principals of the IE Mod.

I had understood IE Mod is an amalgamation of mods that anyone can contribute to. So, I don't think it's remarkable that the other modders who worked on it didn't use it; there's probably lots of stuff in IE Mod they also don't use. I don't think it's relevant whether they used it or not, either. If he has any insight into the coding behind getting walking to work, I'd be interested in that.

The vast majority of features the IE Mod has were put in from very early on.  After Bester "passed the project on" very little new got added, it was mostly just patching what was there so it could continue to work with newer versions of the game.  Which was a herculean task by itself.

 

Interesting side note, the "move at full speed while in stealth" was added by Bester and Sensuki because they wanted to move faster in stealth.  No one ever had to "ask" for it.  They also added the "enhanced" increased game speed because they wanted to move across maps even faster than you could with the built in increased speed.

 

I think that tells you pretty clearly where the principle designers of the mod landed on the "walk toggle" spectrum.  Also the "intent" of a designer is always of huge importance in anything they produce.  It informs their decisions, drives their design goals, and defines their priorities.

 

In response to Leferd's last post, I can't say I concur.  I feel that if they get that close to the 5 mil they should just go ahead and do the companion anyway.  I suspect that is what will happen to, assuming they don't make 5 mil to begin with.

[Icesong]

 

The vast majority of features the IE Mod has were put in from very early on.  After Bester "passed the project on" very little new got added, it was mostly just patching what was there so it could continue to work with newer versions of the game.  Which was a herculean task by itself.

 

Interesting side note, the "move at full speed while in stealth" was added by Bester and Sensuki because they wanted to move faster in stealth.  No one ever had to "ask" for it.  They also added the "enhanced" increased game speed because they wanted to move across maps even faster than you could with the built in increased speed.

 

I think that tells you pretty clearly where the principle designers of the mod landed on the "walk toggle" spectrum.  Also the "intent" of a designer is always of huge importance in anything they produce.  It informs their decisions, drives their design goals, and defines their priorities.

 

In response to Leferd's last post, I can't say I concur.  I feel that if they get that close to the 5 mil they should just go ahead and do the companion anyway.  I suspect that is what will happen to, assuming they don't make 5 mil to begin with.

 

I see, and it is interesting, but I still don't see why their preferences on walk toggle is of any importance to this particular discussion. That modders were able to add walking is a point "my" side is arguing, and IE Mod is the one to do it, but it wasn't one of the principle designers who did it and ultimately the point is that it was possible. How easily is the question. 

 

Did the principle designers of IE Mod not include walking on their own because it was too hard to do or because they just didn't think to do it, being outside their "intent"?

Edited March 4, 2017 by Icesong

[Karkarov]

Did the principle designers of IE Mod not include walking on their own because it was too hard to do or because they just didn't think to do it, being outside their "intent"?

Because they didn't care so they didn't even try.  I think it was some loud voices on the codex that got them to do it.  How hard was it to code?  Don't know, but it couldn't have been too hard or Bester would not have done it as he didn't want to put a ton of effort into it.

 

Here is the thing though.  That was Eternity 1, on Unity 4.  This is Eternity 2 with Unity 5.  Just because it was "somewhat easy" on the old version doesn't mean the same is true now.  We don't even know if they have made walking animations for the PC's, and if they haven't walking basically is a no go.

[Joral]

 

Did the principle designers of IE Mod not include walking on their own because it was too hard to do or because they just didn't think to do it, being outside their "intent"?

Because they didn't care so they didn't even try.  I think it was some loud voices on the codex that got them to do it.  How hard was it to code?  Don't know, but it couldn't have been too hard or Bester would not have done it as he didn't want to put a ton of effort into it.

 

Here is the thing though.  That was Eternity 1, on Unity 4.  This is Eternity 2 with Unity 5.  Just because it was "somewhat easy" on the old version doesn't mean the same is true now.  We don't even know if they have made walking animations for the PC's, and if they haven't walking basically is a no go.

 

 

They have walk animations for the PC's they have been showing them of in some of the vids. Such as slowing to a walk while walking through water or while walking on sand etc. And they have admitted out-rite that it would be very simple for them to add in.

[Cerebro83]

I believe walking animations for the PCs is almost a given. They used them in cutscenes in POE1 and told us that they have increased the number of animations in Deadfire by a large margin. If we have small stuff like Eder filling his pipe, I see absolutely no reason to ignore walking. There will be cutscenes in Deadfire as well and we saw human (and human-like) NPCs walk in the trailer videos. Those NPCs use the same body type, so I see no issues on this front.

 

Regarding Bester and Sensuki: Then they care less about roleplaying and more about mechanics, combat, min-maxing, testing strategies etc... A valid preference, but I don't see a point in telling that they didn't care about walking. Some people asked for it and someone was kind enough to include it. It works perfectly fine and I am very grateful for that. If any then it strenghtens the point that it could not have been that much of a burden, so time and resources should not be a mayor factor here. (I guess it wouldn't take more time or resources than big head mode...)

[Karkarov]

Regarding Bester and Sensuki: Then they care less about roleplaying and more about mechanics, combat, min-maxing, testing strategies etc... A valid preference, but I don't see a point in telling that they didn't care about walking. Some people asked for it and someone was kind enough to include it. It works perfectly fine and I am very grateful for that. If any then it strenghtens the point that it could not have been that much of a burden, so time and resources should not be a mayor factor here. (I guess it wouldn't take more time or resources than big head mode...)

You are overlooking the "they didn't test it" part.  Obsidian will have to test it, in all maps, entering cutscenes, in combat, etc etc.  Testing is almost always takes the most time when you include something new.  So I don't disagree putting it in game would be "easy" but Obsidian is not two guys doing it for a buddy, they have to do it right.

[Yonjuro]

 

....

You are overlooking the "they didn't test it" part.  Obsidian will have to test it, in all maps, entering cutscenes, in combat, etc etc. 

 

 

 Yes, and interactions with all of the other animations. It's multiplicative. Adding the feature is easy - verifying that it works and fixing all of the bugs is hard (or, rather, time consuming).

 

 Anybody with a computer science background who would like to get rich and retire early: fix the "butterfly-flaps-its-wings-on-the-other-side-of-the-world-and-causes-a-hurricane" problem for games with a clever formalism (and/or with static analysis).

[Cerebro83]

You are overlooking the "they didn't test it" part.  Obsidian will have to test it, in all maps, entering cutscenes, in combat, etc etc.  Testing is almost always takes the most time when you include something new.  So I don't disagree putting it in game would be "easy" but Obsidian is not two guys doing it for a buddy, they have to do it right.

 

No, I don't overlook it, I personally just don't think it's that big of a deal. It's not like there are many different mechanics that intertwine with other aspects of the game - it's a simple on/off flag that changes one set of animation to another. Very similar to running and scouting, which is already in the game. To make it super simple: replace the scouting animation with walking - done. I literally "walked" through POE1 from beginning to end and did not encounter any problems. So if this feature didn't get tested before being implemented into IE mod, it either was coded perfectly in the first place or there is simply not that much behind the curtain that can cause problems...

 

But hey, that's just my opinion and you guys are more than welcome to disagree. I just don't think we'll end on the same page anytime soon. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Cerebro83

[illathid]

 

You are overlooking the "they didn't test it" part.  Obsidian will have to test it, in all maps, entering cutscenes, in combat, etc etc.  Testing is almost always takes the most time when you include something new.  So I don't disagree putting it in game would be "easy" but Obsidian is not two guys doing it for a buddy, they have to do it right.

 

No, I don't overlook it, I personally just don't think it's that big of a deal. It's not like there are many different mechanics that intertwine with other aspects of the game - it's a simple on/off flag that changes one set of animation to another. Very similar to running and scouting, which is already in the game. To make it super simple: replace the scouting animation with walking - done. I literally "walked" through POE1 from beginning to end and did not encounter any problems. So if this feature didn't get tested before being implemented into IE mod, it either was coded perfectly in the first place or there is simply not that much behind the curtain that can cause problems...

 

But hey, that's just my opinion and you guys are more than welcome to disagree. I just don't think we'll end on the same page anytime soon. 

 

 

It's not so much a matter of whether it causes problems or not. But rather by adding it means you have to check for problems even if there are none, because that's what good developers do.

[Guest 4ward]

 

characters are sprinting around through unexplored maps and in combat like usain bolt doing 100m runs. It‘s not necessarily about speed but how awkward that looks. The cautious exploring of maps like in BG2 made more sense. The abrupt change from standstill to running and vice versa looks awkward. It needs to get back to the old IE games with walking as standard movement with a starting delay so that the chars also don‘t look like robots as Sensuki mentioned years ago. Add a travel mode for already explored maps - that could be a fade out/fade in scene or them walking fast – while that also might look awkward it‘s acceptable since it‘s travel mode. Adding further animations to have chars getting into movement make more smooth isn‘t required but just simply making walking the standard movement.

[Heijoushin]

I haven't really been following this thread, but have you guys really been discussing walking for 7 pages? Must be a pretty controversial feature...

[Cerebro83]

It is. Some people here think it's the devil.   

Edited March 6, 2017 by Cerebro83

[Karkarov]

I haven't really been following this thread, but have you guys really been discussing walking for 7 pages? Must be a pretty controversial feature...

It isn't, just a few people think the ability to walk somehow is required for a good RPG.  If this were dark souls or something I would agree, but it isn't.  In this game if I want to move slowly and cautiously I just turn on sneak mode.

 

And by "a few people" I mean like 3-5.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Karkarov