Subclasses - Questions/Concerns

[JerekKruger]

Maybe the other Fighter subclass could be a Reposte type character. It has a few defensive modals (lets say one for Deflection and Fortitude, and another for Reflex and Will), but a slower attack speed, but when the fighter is grazed or missed by an attack against the defensive stat the current modal protects against he gets an attack? You could even increase the accuracy/damage of the attack based on if it is a Crit/hit/graze/miss. Like a fit gives no bonus, but the bonus slowly gets higher if it's a hit, and higher still if it's a graze, etc. It may be a bit to similar to the Black Jacket, but it's a bit of an opposite concept to it as well. Just an idea.

 

 

I think this is an excellent idea for either a Fighter or Rogue subclass (Rogue because it's already sort of a thing for Rogues, though builds built around Riposte have never really worked that well).

[Ganrich]

Yup, it would definitely be difficult to balance a class design like that, but it would be cool. It could work for rogues too, but I don't know how well it would work with their sneak attacks and the like. It may be too much micro for that class. Who knows? We have to know more about the class changes to make an educated guess there.

[JerekKruger]

Yup, it would definitely be difficult to balance a class design like that, but it would be cool. It could work for rogues too, but I don't know how well it would work with their sneak attacks and the like. It may be too much micro for that class. Who knows? We have to know more about the class changes to make an educated guess there.

 

So long as it's a sufficiently powerful ability, it could be a replacement for Sneak Attack? The class would be a duellist I guess, and sneak attacks never really fitted with that archetype to my mind.

[Ganrich]

 

Yup, it would definitely be difficult to balance a class design like that, but it would be cool. It could work for rogues too, but I don't know how well it would work with their sneak attacks and the like. It may be too much micro for that class. Who knows? We have to know more about the class changes to make an educated guess there.

 

 

So long as it's a sufficiently powerful ability, it could be a replacement for Sneak Attack? The class would be a duellist I guess, and sneak attacks never really fitted with that archetype to my mind.

Perhaps, but at that point is the subclass a rogue? With a Fighter, it could retain many abilities and talents of the Fighter class. If it's a Rogue without Sneak Attack then what Talents can it persue? Not very many Rogue talents because it has no Sneak Attacks. So, it won't benefit from a lot of Rogue abilities. There could be a way around that, but it might fit Fighter more, in this case anyway. You could limit it to Medium or light armor to further inhibit it as well, but I know Josh doesn't like such limitation.

 

I guess you could only have Sneak attacks apply on reposte attacks. That might work.

[injurai]

I'm kind of curious. We know each class will have 2 subclasses. But we also know "pure" is one of those options. Could it be viewed as each class having sort of 3 equal but different variants? What I mean by that is something more analogous to OG WoW's talent trees? Or will Pure vs Kits really feel quite different? Do the subclass kits open up something that pure doesn't get? Say, pure gets to scale the core components more heavily, but doesn't actually have abilities that the subclasses are entirely barred from. Or is pure just a third kit that stylistically stays closer to the traditional role of said class, but indeed as abilities unique from the subclasses? Do the subclasses make your give up actual abilities from the pure class?

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I guess one way of looking at it is the following. Is the "core" of the class the set of all things "pure, kit1, and kit2" have in common. Or does "pure" represent the core of the class abilities.

[Ganrich]

@injurai - Knowing Josh Sawyer, these will be equal variants on the core class. They want to ensure that the base class is still a good and viable choice.

 

Edit for clarity: The subclass will likely give up certain benefits, but gain others. For instance the a Black Jacket loses accuracy, but gains more proficiencies with more weapons. He has a quick swap capability. When using a weapon the enemy is weak against he does greater damage and penetration. So, his bonuses to damage and penetration make up for the lack of accuracy IF you switch weapons to something the enemy is weak against. This lets him switch to the tool that is best for the enemy at hand, and stay close to the core Fighter.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Ganrich

[injurai]

Well, I'm wondering more in relation to skills and talents that are unique only to a particular kit. I do expect that each subclass invokes trades offs relative to the "pure" variant. The pure serving as sort of the "control" for the class as a whole. More the stuff that your giving-up/gaining down the road as you level.

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​Will the subclasses basically get entirely new abilities, without giving up abilities that pure has? Or maybe abilities aren't exactly tied to subclasses in the first place? Are subclasses just one-time trade offs on character creation? I think I just need a more in-depth explanation as to how exactly they work. I feel I get multi-classes, just not sub-classes.

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​It's the "how" are the trade-offs being implemented rather than that they are happening. How we will see those through out the leveling process. But maybe it's too early and Obsidian still is working this out.

[Ganrich]

I would expect a few Talents/feats for each subclass that are specific to them, but I also expect the subclasses to retain most of the core class's talent pool. It will have some unique abilities, and may lose a few talents/abilities that it has access to as a ramification. I'm expecting variations on a theme with slight gameplay differences, but nothing much more. The few we have info on don't seem to be drastically different from their base class, but a little flavor here and there.

 

The Ghost Heart Ranger still has animal companion Talents/abilities, but the difference lies in the companion's defenses and the fact that you need to summon it. It may have a few Talents available specific to the spirit animal companion.

[Gromnir]

am thinking any concerns 'bout sub-class is premature.  am knowing we mentioned this already, but josh described sub-classes using "kit" language.  unfortunate, and perfect reasonable, people thought o' bg2 kits.  the thing is, am suspecting josh were thinking o' ad&d kits.  difference?  bg2 kits were largely munchkin bait-- foolish not to take a kit.  kits from bg2, for the most part, were overpowered when compared to the base classes.  many ad&d kits were as broken as bg2 kits, but such were hardly true in all or even most cases.  most ad&d kits were offering some minor flavor change to a base class.

 

black isle had an opportunity to add kits to an ie game: iwd2.  initially iwd2 were gonna be ad&d 2e.  the developers posted their kit suggestions on the old black isle/interplay boards.  the black isle developer iwd2 kits were not like bg2 kits.  iwd2 kits offered minor benefits and disadvantages.  minor.  

 

one poe sub-class already described were a monk, yes?  higher wound threshold disadvantage balanced by longer last drug consumables. 

 

the more realistic danger we foresee regarding subclasses is opposite o' what am observing in this thread and elsewhere.  real danger is once folks see poe sub-classes, they is gonna be underwhelmed and angry.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 5, 2017 by Gromnir

[Ganrich]

I won't be angry, but I expect the same, Gromnir.

 

Nothing major, but enough flavor to make using the kit enjoyable is all I ask. The subclasses will also feed the Multiclass system well. We don't know enough about the individual subclases to figure any of these out, but I'm sure there will be interesting combos.

[Fardragon]

If we assume that paladin orders and cleric deities are subclasses, then it seems likely that other subclasses work the same way. So you get nothing for your original pick. It simply unlocks some Talents and Abilities whilst locking others.

[JerekKruger]

If we assume that paladin orders and cleric deities are subclasses, then it seems likely that other subclasses work the same way. So you get nothing for your original pick. It simply unlocks some Talents and Abilities whilst locking others.

 

Yes and no. Josh has said that he wants the base class to remain a viable option as well. If you could create a PoE Paladin with no Order, who got no Order related talents, it would be at best no worse than Paladins with an Order, and possibly worse. As such I expect every kit will have a innate difference including both some advantages and some disadvantages over the base class.

 

So what's the yes? Well, tied into Gromnir's post, I wouldn't be surprised if subclasses end up about the same scope as PoE Paladin Orders in how different they are to the base class. I think a lot of people are imagining a complete reworking of ability trees for each subclass but I suspect it's more likely each subclass will come with one innate difference (for example the Black Jacket gets the ability to switch weapons instantly, but has -5 accuracy) and then a couple of talents or abilities that further emphasise that difference (for the Black Jacket, one which increases accuracy when attacking an enemy's lowest DR for example).

 

Of course, this is purely speculation, but I agree with Gromnir that it's quite likely that subclasses will end up being a lot less distinct from their base class than a lot of people are expecting. I will be happy to find out I'm wrong though

[Fardragon]

You can create a paladin with "no order" simply by not selecting any order-specific abilities. That may be what Josh means by the base class still being viable, rather than subclass A/subclass B/vanilla triple options on character creation.

 

For example the obvious counterpart to "Black Jacket" (Jack-of-all-weapons) is the "Weapon Master" (master-of-one). Since the Weapon Master would get access to enhanced weapon focus and specialisation in thier chosen weapon, Black Jacket would have "lower accuracy" relatively, without needing an built in penalty.

[blotter]

You can create a paladin with "no order" simply by not selecting any order-specific abilities. That may be what Josh means by the base class still being viable, rather than subclass A/subclass B/vanilla triple options on character creation.

 

Not really, as things currently stand, update #7 specifies that paladin orders and priest deities are required subclasses, as was stated earlier in this thread. So I wouldn't expect any orderless paladins unless that changes.

[injurai]

I thought he said recently that for Priests and Paladins, your order was the subclasses and that it was required. So I'm not sure if no order is possible. I think it might have been on SA that he said that.

[Fardragon]

Paladins have to choose an order, but they don't have to take any of the abilities associated with it.

[SaruNi]

 

Yup, it would definitely be difficult to balance a class design like that, but it would be cool. It could work for rogues too, but I don't know how well it would work with their sneak attacks and the like. It may be too much micro for that class. Who knows? We have to know more about the class changes to make an educated guess there.

 

So long as it's a sufficiently powerful ability, it could be a replacement for Sneak Attack? The class would be a duellist I guess, and sneak attacks never really fitted with that archetype to my mind.

 

 

1. In PoE, Rogue "sneak attack" hasn't been primarily about attacking from hiding or backstabbing---it's been about attacking when opponents have been partly incapacitated (hobbled, blinded, stunned, etc.). So the concept of a Rogue Duelist/Swashbuckler type who hobbles/off-balances/trips or blinds opponents to land sneak attacks makes perfect sense. Think of the classic Duelist/Swashbuckler who disarms his opponent or knocks him off balance or dodges out of the way and trips him, etc., then attacks when he's vulnerable.

 

Improved riposte, evasion, and CC could be balanced as with the Black Jacket or consumables Monk by making Sneak Attack and/or Backstab have weaker base damage (except maybe under certain conditions---weaker unless in the form of a riposte, or Backstab weaker unless the opponent is also incapacitated). Or base Rogue abilities could cost more or be delayed until later levels (for example, Shadowing Beyond, which if it returns will no longer be once per rest, but instead based on Empower points).

 

2. One difference between base classes and subclasses might be that subclasses require more micro and/or more item use. For example, Black Jacket requires switching between different weapons to match specific opponents (quickswitching when fighting multiple opponents of different types). The monk subclass uses drugs. The ranger subclass requires more micro because she needs to summon her pet during combat.

 

3. But with the exception of assassin and shapeshifter, the new subclasses are comparatively unique (and awesome because of it). Duelist/Swashbuckler has been done before. Traps were underutilized items in PoE 1, and multiclassing probably takes away the main advantage of using traps (CC for fighters, etc.)... but trap-centric rogues have also been done a lot (a Ranger subclass based around traps + archery might be more interesting than just another typical Archer Ranger... maybe the pet can walk over the Ranger's traps without triggering them, and the Ranger can take a talent which allows for one or two additional traps at a time, but the subclass gets fewer overall Empower points per rest and has to take points in Mechanics to lay traps effectively). Something unique and relatively unexpected for the second rogue subclass would be best. 

 

4.  Of course, the pirate theme might make people want a piratey subclass, like a Swashbuckler, but preferably something more original and lore-specific. Maybe a nautical theme---resistance (or eventually immunity) to prone / hobbled / stuck and elemental AoE (from being on the tossing deck of a ship, or on ships during storms, fires, even resistance to confusion, or if we think of the ancient myth of the sirens perhaps resistance to charm too... maybe even resistance to rare poisons from around the world), to create synergy with "friendly fire" from other classes (and/or the Rogue's own use of items/scrolls/traps)? (Or, like the Black Jacket's extra weapon specializations, maybe this Rogue could start out with bonus resistance to prone/hobbled and choose extra defensive abilities. Perhaps get an added defensive bonus against enemies that are hobbled or have similar afflictions---like a defensive bonus whenever Sneak Attack would apply, including within a few seconds of the beginning of combat or after coming out of stealth/invisibility.)  An evasion / riposte tanky rogue with CC (maybe including distraction, decoys, etc.), good battlefield movement, and optionally enhanced traps or item usage too (pirates and booby-trapped buried treasure, pirates and ancient arcane treasures...). Aside from traps, are there any items or interesting item-related mechanics that most people probably didn't use much in PoE 1 that would be interesting for a pirate-like Rogue?

 

A Duelist could then be more of a Fighter/Rogue multiclass than a pure Rogue subclass.

Edited February 6, 2017 by SaruNi