About Sea Exploration/naval combat

[mumbogumshoe]

So, this game is set in the Deadfire Archipelago, which means there will be a lot of Sea between all those islands, a pirate theme and, it seems likely, we'll get a ship as our stronghold. All of that I find awesome. Question is though, how will that aspect of the game be implemented.

 

Of course we could just get a map like we did of the Dyrwood, only most of it will be water. Travel between the islands consists of just clicking on an island. You're instantly transported there, the game tells you how much time has passed, you (maybe) see your ship anchored in a harbor or a bay and you start exploring the map of the island. That would totally work but imo, it would waste the potential of a setting like this. If I'm playing a game set in an archipelago with pirates and if I'm the captain of a ship, I want to explore the ocean, discover new islands and engage in a bit of piracy myself! 

 

So how could this be done without being weird and taking too much away from good old-fashioned story driven rpg-ing which I definitely want to be the main focus of the game. I mean drawing a little ship around the ocean map a la Pirates! could work I guess  but also seems a strange addition to a game like this and to make it work well and not be boring may well be out of the scope of the game. How could you make naval combat fun. In reality it seems to me to have mostly been a rather tedious affair with ships trying to outrun each other trying to get into a good position and then raking them with a broadside (or more likely, one striking their colors when that seems to be inevitable). There's a tactical element to it but I think it could get boring fast if you'd have to do it a lot - and it only makes only sense to implement something like this if it's used throughout the game.

 

What do other people think? Would you want something like this? Naval battles, ocean exploration, freebooting? Or would you rather they stick with the core mechanics of isometric rtwp rpg combat and not add new stuff like this. If you'd like to see something like this, how would you implement it?

 

 

[Ganrich]

I was thinking about this earlier and thought immediately of ship combat in Assassins Creed: Blackflag and/or the similar system in Rebel Galaxy. Add in a pause mechanic to plan your maneuvers, and you may have something. Also, ensure boarding is a possibility.

[mumbogumshoe]

Yes, I was also thinking of Assassin's Creed: Black Flag, only I don't know if they can do something like that... I mean there's the perspective for one thing (even though that's not that important) and the whole open world thing... I don't think that that's within the scope and tbh, I don't want it to go there. Open world is fine but it distracts a lot from a focused story driven game. Maybe it's just me but I almost never finish an open world game. I tend to mess about with exploration, killing things and doing the odd quest until I lose interest and stop playing. Haven't ever played an open world game where the story really gripped me.

 

Anyway, yes boarding would be mandatory!

[jones092201]

it'd be great to have an overland (or oversea, in this case) map ala Storms of Zehir. A lot of opertunities for skill use in that, and exploration.

 

another game that show an interesting way to do this is Pirates: Gold, if anyone remembers.

 

actually, that's exactly what i'd like the map and naval combat before boarding to look like. I'd imagine the devs at least talked about doing something like that, even if didnt want to in the end, or had a reason why it wouldn't work.

[floredon]

something inspired by Warcraft 2's naval combat could do, with a modern update of course.

[mumbogumshoe]

I think a Storm of Zehir like solution, an overland map with random encounters could work and there's also precedent for it in quite a few rpg's. It's a bit retro but, hey, that whole isometric rtwp thing is a bit retro...

 

Pirates! and Pirates! Gold was also the first thing that came to my mind. Actually I used to always want a game that has this sort of gameplay but where you could also explore detailed islands... So I wouldn't mind if it's well integrated. 

[mumbogumshoe]

Never played Warcraft 2... what was it like?

 

Sorry for double post... that's because I have to wait for moderator approval. Saw the new reply before my other post was approved and just answered straight away.

Edited January 27, 2017 by mumbogumshoe

[Gromnir]

impossible but optimal:

 

an optional turn-based minigame while traveling by ship.  have ship-to-ship combats take place on a extreme simple hex-based grid.  rewards and punishments depending 'pon outcome o' encounters. as character increase in power, so does size o' their mini-fleet such that we would have multi-ship engagements later in game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps this option would make for an ideal gold sink as one could invest vast sums o' gold upgrading their ship/fleet.  make sure rewards is largely cosmetic or minor faction rep boosts or whatnot.  

Edited January 27, 2017 by Gromnir

[Leferd]

I hope my caravel has lateen sails. Lateen sails are boss.

[mumbogumshoe]

Not against turn based but I think if you do this you could go rtwp as well, stay consistent with the rest of the game. Good point about the money sink, will be much more fun to outfit the ship with bigger cannons, copper plating, whatever than to build up the chapel or the hedge maze in the courtyard... much more impact on gameplay

[jones092201@gmail.com]

A little of topic, but my hope is that the ship could actually generate some income for you, rather than take all your early coin for upgrades...

[Quillon]

A little of topic, but my hope is that the ship could actually generate some income for you, rather than take all your early coin for upgrades...

 

No income necessary for we'll pay the iron price for everything 

 

What is dead may never die! But goes to Berath's Wheel and reborns as a stag!

[Gairnulf]

If they had planned any such functionality (open world, pirate, "living the life"), they would have certainly boasted about it in the announcement video.

 

I am pretty sure however that this theme will be touched on in the form of quests. There will be one whole pirate faction, with which you'll be able to interact.

[mumbogumshoe]

I agree that open world gameplay even in the form a la Pirates! is probably outside the scope of this game. That's part of the reason why I started the topic, because I was wondering how they would or could implement something like this. I disagree that it's unlikely that we see anything of the sort. Of course it's all speculation at this point but if there really is a ship as a stronghold, of which there have been hints, not to have this ship freely move around somehow and engage in some form of combat would seem strange. Also, when you decide on a setting like this, archipelago, ships, piracy, sea monsters, you have to be aware what a strong trope this whole piracy and sea exploration thing is. How many people, including me, like this sort of stuff. It would be a very strange decision then to send the player into a world like this, give them a ship, and then just use the whole piracy thing as a backdrop and not let the player engage in it themselves. Bound to disappoint a lot of people.

 

Anyway, Stom of Zehir style overland map doesn't seem unlikely to me. They did it before in a game that harkens back to the Infinity Engine games. It wouldn't take too many resources, not distract too much from the main focus of the game and also seems pleasingly retro, like IE-style gameplay itself (to me at least). We'll see.

[mothra]

Nice ideas, I think an economic way of doing it would be the scripted interactions of the first game mixed with the hireling mechanic of Caed Nua, maybe even the battle over it where you could enlist NPCs ingame and/or pay for support. Depending on your decisions in the scripted interaction it could probably end in a small map of two ships already near enough to be boarded and then an battle to either defend your ship, put out fires, raise sails to escape or storm the other vessel across planks/using hooks etc....

 

I can't see them introducing a whole system of actually steering your ship/firing cannons although it "could" be sweet.

But if it would deviate too much from the feel/themes and mechanics of the main game I would rather have them scrap it and make travel a simple "click on island, time progresses" affair.

 

Another neat thing was the base defense in the x-com games where after a few turns some of your other crew (companions not in your party) would join the battlefield or specifically assigned to special tasks as mentioned above (put out fires, fire cannons)

Edited January 28, 2017 by mothra

[mumbogumshoe]

Oh yes, haven't even thought of scripted interactions. That could work very well, especially for something like boarding another ship, swinging through the rigging, doing some crazy acrobatics. I'd love that!

[Ganrich]

Honestly, I don't see this requiring any new systems really. Have small ship models, and animations for it. Have a handful of maps for the open sea. Give the ships abilities based on upgrades. Using some weapons are positional (side cannons for example). Have some turning limits on the ship so you can't turn on a dime. Then you just use the same RtwP mechanics for your ship that you have for standard combat. Allow players to build more offense based, defense based, and speed based ship upgrades. When/if boarding takes place you do a scripted interaction. That's not to say it isn't a lot of work, but it would be a great addition. At least imho.

[Leferd]

Just add this to the game files.

 

[Ganrich]

Just add this to the game files.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKNK3SW4-O8

That's really what I was thinking about. What a great game.

[mumbogumshoe]

I loved Pirates!Gold in the 90s. One of the first games that I ever really loved. Having those two types of game combined seems like a fantastic idea to me. The only problem I see is the one I've already mentioned above, that I don't know if it would mesh so well with a story focused rpg. If it's done well it's really fun to just explore the seas, capture ships and booty, upgrade your ship, hire crew... All this might really distract from what the game is really about, doing quests, advance the story, build your character. But whether it works well together or not, something like this would be a huge part of the game that's totally different from the IE games. Not sure if most people would want that.

[Ganrich]

I loved Pirates!Gold in the 90s. One of the first games that I ever really loved. Having those two types of game combined seems like a fantastic idea to me. The only problem I see is the one I've already mentioned above, that I don't know if it would mesh so well with a story focused rpg. If it's done well it's really fun to just explore the seas, capture ships and booty, upgrade your ship, hire crew... All this might really distract from what the game is really about, doing quests, advance the story, build your character. But whether it works well together or not, something like this would be a huge part of the game that's totally different from the IE games. Not sure if most people would want that.

These are all good points. It would have to be more limited. I doubt you would scavenge defeated ships for upgrades, but you could get gold and the like. Use gold to buy upgrades like the first game. It would be limited to traveling between islands (maybe first time only), and maybe some random encounters and bounties.

 

Here are some more thoughts I had on it.

 

Offense upgrades give more offensive abilities. Adding cannons, adding different types of projectiles, and so on. Perhaps increasing damage of your current weapons.

 

Defensive upgrades do the same, but for defense. They also increase your ship's DR.

 

Mobility upgrades increase maneuverability, and speed. Perhaps giving you some abilities To Help dodge attacks and the like. Still thinking on this one.

 

Now, in the first game you had Prestige and security. These could be turned into attributes.

 

Offense (or whatever name you want to give it) - accuracy, damage, attack speed.

 

Defense (placeholder as well) - DR, Health, etc.

 

Mobility (placeholder) - movement speed, deflection, etc.

 

Now, your crew (not companions, but hirelings like Card Nua had) will increase/decrease these attributes like gear. This, allowing you to fit your ship and staff it appropriately.

 

You could also allow the PC's base class to give some abilities or an ability to further differentiate. Example - Paladin has the ability to apply Flames of Devotion to cannon round once per encounter or some such.

 

Of course, ship resting bonuses could still be applied.

 

Anyway, I'll post more if I think of any more ideas.

[teenparty]

I don't need anything fancier than BG2.