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Russian Hacking Scandal : Why it matters


BruceVC

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Sup All

 

I have realized that for some people there is a  misunderstanding around the relevance and perceived impact around this whole " Russia hacked the DNC ", personally I have always been very concerned about the Russian hacking but I never explained the context and history of aspects of cyber-warfare perpetrated  by the likes of Russia and why it should matter. This post is a discussion around this

 

First important consideration is this whole Russian hacking is not about changing  the election result, Trump won, and is not even about the hacking of the DNC. This is about something much more significant and is more about the principle and global position  of " should the global community accept this type of interference and potential impact that the Russian hacking represents " 

 

Many countries engage in aspects of cyber-warfare\hacking and in many cases this is state sponsored, state sponsored means the actual government is involved which means hackers have increased access to resources and state funds which logically makes the hacking more effective than some guy living in a basement trying to discover if aliens are in control of the CIA

 

For example China has hacked the USA in the interests of corporate espionage on numerous examples

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/chinas-great-brain-robbery-hacking-us-companies-national-security-emergency-1538590

 

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2015/07/09/hack-of-security-clearance-system-affected-21-5-million-people-federal-authorities-say/?utm_term=.129e3ed13ed4

 

NK hacked Sony

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/north-korea-behind-sony-hack-u-s-officials-n270451

 

Israel and the USA  hacked Iran and created the Stuxnet virus to impact their nuclear program

 

http://www.jpost.com/Iranian-Threat/News/Stuxnet-virus-set-back-Irans-nuclear-program-by-2-years

 

But in almost all these cases, except Stuxnet, the objective of the hacking was corporate espionage or a political statement. So in other words the Chinese want access to the corporate and government IP of the USA  so they can grow there own economy 

 

But the Russians under Putin have been doing something more insidious and more advanced than any other country over the last 10 years. They have taken hacking to a different level and there hacking has directly impacted the government institutions and infrastructure of numerous countries....there objective through cyber-warfare is not just economic gain, which is normal,  but rather an attempt to implement social and political change. Some good links to read for a summary of this

 

An overview of Russian hacking over the last 10 years  targeting the USA and other states 

 

http://www.techpolicydaily.com/technology/russians-hacking-dnc-america/

 

The attacks on Estonia 

 

http://archive.wired.com/politics/security/magazine/15-09/ff_estonia?currentPage=all

 

The attacks on Georgia 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberattacks_during_the_Russo-Georgian_War

 

The attacks on Ukraine

 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/22/dnc-hack-crowdstrike-ukraine-malware-russia

 

So in closing anyone who cares or supports the principle of a government being independent or anyone who cares about a free society needs to ask themselves a very important question " do I believe a foreign country has the right to impact my government institutions, like a power grid,  through hacking and cyber-warfare" 

 

If the answer is " no " then these Russian hacks should matter because as I mentioned in the beginning this is not about the DNC but rather the fact Russia has the view and ability to attempt to influence the social and political stability of a country like the USA  the same way it has impacted other countries like Estonia and Georgia 

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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BruceVC... I would recommend looking up "Echelon". BBC has some good articles on it.

 

Unless of course you believe no western country would ever spy on another country.

 

 Raise hands all those who thinks western intelligence services would never try to 'help' leaders to power that might be more favourable to them?

 

It's not that many doubt the Russians tried to meddle in things, it's just that I suspect most expect everyone to do it and only pointing fingers at one participant in that particular game of realpolitik seems a bit odd.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Fear mongering from the left at this point. They had eight years to tackle this so called attack on our democracy. They waited till Trump won. 

But just to reiterate the broader point, this is not about the left or the right

 

 

There is a real and sustained attempt by Russia to implement political change throughout the world through advanced degrees of cyber-warfare

 

I have posted real links and evidence. This is not about fear mongering because that would suggest its not real or not a substantive risk , this is real. The question is " do you care that  any country can impact the social and political  stability of the USA " 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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BruceVC... I would recommend looking up "Echelon". BBC has some good articles on it.

 

Unless of course you believe no western country would ever spy on another country.

 

 Raise hands all those who thinks western intelligence services would never try to 'help' leaders to power that might be more favourable to them?

 

It's not that many doubt the Russians tried to meddle in things, it's just that I suspect most expect everyone to do it and only pointing fingers at one participant in that particular game of realpolitik seems a bit odd.

But again I have acknowledged certain  countries spy or are involved in cyber-warfare. I also gave examples 

 

But no country has directly used cyber-warfare like the Russians lately   to impact foreign  governments institutions like  the power grid of a  country, this is unprecedented 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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We can either discuss cyber espionage as a whole or this situation.

We don't know if it was Russian hacking, no one presented any credible evidence.

 

Cyber espionage is the same as all espionage. Everyone is doing this to other and everybody tries to protect themselves from it.

We cannot morally accuse Russia (or anyone) for doing it as we all (countries) do it. It's part of the global politics, it's a sad reality but reality nonetheless.

 

Trying to discuss the bigger picture based on this would be like discussing racism based on hoaxed situations.

We need to discuss the Russian hacking of the DNC, thats what the thread is about  but as it pertains to Russia this is about a history and culture of these types of events so the context needs to include how Russia has been involved in interfering in numerous governments for the last 10 years through there skill around  cyber-warfare

 

There is no doubt Russia was involved. It makes any discussion around this topic impossible to have if a person actually tries to claim  " Russia wasn't involved or there is no evidence "

 

17 different US  security agencies have stated this, why would you doubt this?

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/10/21/17-intelligence-agencies-russia-behind-hacking/92514592/

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Bruce, assume for the moment the hacking of the DNC is what everyone takes at face value: a deliberate attack by the Russian government. Although it is certainly a criminal act, it is NOT an attack on the United States any more than if the target had been Bank of America, AT&T, Ford Motor, etc. The DNC is not a a part of the US Government in any way. It is a private institution responsible for it's own conduct and cyber security. The term "hacking the election" is being thrown around here in the US but that is not what happened. At worst a state actor perpetrated a criminal act against a private institution. The remedy is to buy better server security and engage in better business practices.

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"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men"

- St. Francis of Assisi

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Bruce, assume for the moment the hacking of the DNC is what everyone takes at face value: a deliberate attack by the Russian government. Although it is certainly a criminal act, it is NOT an attack on the United States any more than if the target had been Bank of America, AT&T, Ford Motor, etc. The DNC is not a a part of the US Government in any way. It is a private institution responsible for it's own conduct and cyber security. The term "hacking the election" is being thrown around here in the US but that is not what happened. At worst a state actor perpetrated a criminal act against a private institution. The remedy is to buy better server security and engage in better business practices.

Despite some Republicans disputing this Russia also hacked the RNC

 

 http://www.rawstory.com/2016/12/russia-withheld-hacked-rnc-emails-to-help-trumps-campaign-report/

 

But I dont think this will change your mind about whether this was an attack on the USA so let me ask you this 

 

Dont you believe in a Democracy the election process needs to be as free and fair as possible, for example we know there is always some negligible  degree of domestic vote rigging in all Democracies which we expect and normally doesnt impact the end voting outcome 

 

If you believe the process of the election should be sacrosanct then surely you can see that hacking the computer system that maintains vital information around any political party should be considered an attack on the election system  because you are undermining one of the core components of that Democracy , a political party

 

And if you seek to undermine the Democracy of any country then is  that not  an attack on that country ?

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Te DNC has nothing what so ever to do with the conduct of the election. It has nothing to do with polling, vote tally, any of it. They are a private institution that coordinates fundraising and other campaign activities of democrat candidates. So no, the release of that info did not make the election less free or fair.

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"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men"

- St. Francis of Assisi

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17 different US  security agencies have stated this, why would you doubt this?

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/10/21/17-intelligence-agencies-russia-behind-hacking/92514592/

Because there is no evidence. And these agencies are responsible for security are they not?

I think I already stated that, but if those 17 agencies would state that Russia "hacked the election" AND their chiefs would all place resignation letters the same day, because they feel responsible, I would consider that something happened.

Right now it's just word against word.

 

 

Dont you believe in a Democracy the election process needs to be as free and fair as possible, for example we know there is always some negligible  degree of domestic vote rigging in all Democracies which we expect and normally doesn't impact the end voting outcome 

 

If you believe the process of the election should be sacrosanct then surely you can see that hacking the computer system that maintains vital information around any political party should be considered an attack on the election system  because you are undermining one of the core components of that Democracy , a political party

 

And if you seek to undermine the Democracy of any country then is  that not  an attack on that country ?

So: "If you don't believe in this theory then you don't believe in Democracy"?

That's an old leftist song and no one buys this narration anymore, sorry.

Wanting proof for claims has little to nothing to do with democracy.

If anything wanting proof and holding gov agencies responsible is STRENGHTENING Democracy.

 

Do you think that Russia is a good example of a Democracy? 

 

Do you prefer the Russian view of the world to lets say the view of the EU has where we recognize and enforce human rights and tolerance ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Bruce, no one is arguing Russia is not a bad actor on the world stage. The thing about the DNC hack is it does not rise to level of State espionage that so many people, particularly on the left want to make it. Once again taking at face value that a hack is what it was and not an "inside job". 

 

And I hate to say this but the DNC brought this on themselves. Not only for poor server security but had their people conducted themselves with even a modicum of professionalism and the common e-mail etiquette that most corporations insist upon this would have been a non-story from the get go. Yes they were exposed for trying to "rig" their primary elections. Nothing illegal about that, it's their Primary. They don't even have to have one. If it offends voter's sense of fair play, well that was a thing to consider before the act. And the fact they were doing it was exposed. But it's not like it wasn't happening Hillary Clinton was cheating in the debates. It was exposed. Not like it wasn't happening. Their e-mail correspondence demonstrated they were... and I'll be kind... not very nice people. It was hardly headline news. But anyone who has spent 10 minutes in the 21st Century should know not to put anything in an e-mail that might embarrass you if someone else read it. Because once you hit "send" you have 0 control over it after. 

 

But all of this aside. The DNC, the RNC, the Clinton Campaign, the Trump Campaign, these are not the United States. If this had been a hack of the Department of Defense, Department of Treasury, the Secret Service, etc then we'll call it state espionage.

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"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men"

- St. Francis of Assisi

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Bruce, no one is arguing Russia is not a bad actor on the world stage. The thing about the DNC hack is it does not rise to level of State espionage that so many people, particularly on the left want to make it. Once again taking at face value that a hack is what it was and not an "inside job". 

 

And I hate to say this but the DNC brought this on themselves. Not only for poor server security but had their people conducted themselves with even a modicum of professionalism and the common e-mail etiquette that most corporations insist upon this would have been a non-story from the get go. Yes they were exposed for trying to "rig" their primary elections. Nothing illegal about that, it's their Primary. They don't even have to have one. If it offends voter's sense of fair play, well that was a thing to consider before the act. And the fact they were doing it was exposed. But it's not like it wasn't happening Hillary Clinton was cheating in the debates. It was exposed. Not like it wasn't happening. Their e-mail correspondence demonstrated they were... and I'll be kind... not very nice people. It was hardly headline news. But anyone who has spent 10 minutes in the 21st Century should know not to put anything in an e-mail that might embarrass you if someone else read it. Because once you hit "send" you have 0 control over it after. 

 

But all of this aside. The DNC, the RNC, the Clinton Campaign, the Trump Campaign, these are not the United States. If this had been a hack of the Department of Defense, Department of Treasury, the Secret Service, etc then we'll call it state espionage.

There are several Republicans equally concerned, people like  Lindsey Graham

 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/gop-senators-join-dems-condemn-russian-political-hacking/

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Wow, even PBS is spreading disinformation. The very first sentence: The Republicans on the Senate Armed Services Committee are joining with Democrats in calling for an examination of reports that Russia interfered in the presidential election. They DID NOT interfere with the election. They interfered with the DNC. I'm sure Lindsey Graham isn't happy about it. I'm not happy about it either. The takeaway is for the DNC to take batter care of it's business. Everyone seems to be missing that point. None of this would have happened without some bad acts and mistakes by the DNC.

 

Bruce what do think the remedy for this is? We have all typed thousands of words of text complain or discussing it. What do you suggest should be DONE about it though? Should the bombers be manned and on-station? Should the keys be in the missile silos? Should the DNC sue the Russian Government? What do you suggest is the remedy?

"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men"

- St. Francis of Assisi

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Wow, even PBS is spreading disinformation. The very first sentence: The Republicans on the Senate Armed Services Committee are joining with Democrats in calling for an examination of reports that Russia interfered in the presidential election. They DID NOT interfere with the election. They interfered with the DNC. I'm sure Lindsey Graham isn't happy about it. I'm not happy about it either. The takeaway is for the DNC to take batter care of it's business. Everyone seems to be missing that point. None of this would have happened without some bad acts and mistakes by the DNC.

 

Bruce what do think the remedy for this is? We have all typed thousands of words of text complain or discussing it. What do you suggest should be DONE about it though? Should the bombers be manned and on-station? Should the keys be in the missile silos? Should the DNC sue the Russian Government? What do you suggest is the remedy?

I'm glad you asked " what should be done next ", that is a very relevant question

 

The current punitive steps Obama took is fine for the short term, it sends a message.

 

 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/us/politics/russia-election-hacking-sanctions.html?_r=0

 

 

But going forward we need Trump to at least acknowledge the threat, failing that we need reinvestment in the USA cyber-warfare division so the USA can protect itself going forward and Russia needs to be made aware these types of cyber-attacks are unacceptable

 

Sanctions can be increased if Russia ignores this but no one is suggesting the USA  must go to war with Russia....thats ridiculous and will never happen because of mutually assured destruction  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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OK, let me ask you a question then. If Sasol was hacked by Russian hackers would the South African Government be justified in expelling Russian diplomatic staff from the county?

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"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men"

- St. Francis of Assisi

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1) Considering that OpenSSL has now been compromised again, it practically means that NSA and any other agancy in any other country has been pretty much listening and probing each others communications the last five or six years.

 

https://zerobin.net/?06dae5d45335d2b4#m8FRD5qfMgH1rxjVH4oAjHvOMxJArCGp9UIogpmsnHg=

 

2) Trying to influence an election indirectly through the use of propaganda has existed as long as there's been elections, and other means before that. This is realpolitik 101.

 

What one should question is how to safeguard against it and what instruments should be used who in turn are objective enough not to influence the elections themselves.

Edited by Meshugger

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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OK, let me ask you a question then. If Sasol was hacked by Russian hackers would the South African Government be justified in expelling Russian diplomatic staff from the county?

Thats a good question  :geek:

 

In the case of SA  currently no they wouldn't be justified as the private sector is suppose to be separate .....but personally I would prefer SA  would be more concerned with this type of cyber attack but we are still dealing with  certain disruptive  social, economic  and political realities that are due to Apartheid and bad government decisions, so SA  is probably a bad example 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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2) Trying to influence an election indirectly through the use of propaganda has existed as long as there's been elections, and other means before that. This is realpolitik 101.

 

 

And? Should we just accept it now in  a connected and digital age ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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OK, let me ask you a question then. If Sasol was hacked by Russian hackers would the South African Government be justified in expelling Russian diplomatic staff from the county?

Thats a good question  :geek:

 

In the case of SA  currently no they wouldn't be justified as the private sector is suppose to be separate .....but personally I would prefer SA  would be more concerned with this type of cyber attack but we are still dealing with  certain disruptive  social, economic  and political realities that are due to Apartheid and bad government decisions, so SA  is probably a bad example 

 

The DNC is also a private enterprise and separate from the operation of the US Government. So maybe the President's actions here were inappropriate?

"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men"

- St. Francis of Assisi

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I really don't understand Barack Obama. The Chinese Navy commits an overt act of war, seizing an unmanned US vessel in international waters in full view of it's mother ship and not only refuses to return it but threatens military action against any attempt to retrieve it and the President is as meek as a kitten about it. The Russians might have hacked into the DNC and released some embarrassing information about  things they actually WERE doing and he's moving troops to the Russian border. It makes no sense to me.

"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men"

- St. Francis of Assisi

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Because China is a threat to certain interests and Russia isn't. Same way they can get all in a rage over ISIS barbarianism but handwave away Saudi Arabia or Greatest Ally doing shady ****.

"To be fair, if I was married to Milla Jovovich, I would also be happy just making movies that show off her butt." - Hurlsnot

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2) Trying to influence an election indirectly through the use of propaganda has existed as long as there's been elections, and other means before that. This is realpolitik 101.

 

 

And? Should we just accept it now in  a connected and digital age ?

 

 

As the rest of my post suggest, yes, you should roll over, cry and admit defeat that you're dealing with forces that you cannot fight in any possible way.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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I really don't understand Barack Obama. The Chinese Navy commits an overt act of war, seizing an unmanned US vessel in international waters in full view of it's mother ship and not only refuses to return it but threatens military action against any attempt to retrieve it and the President is as meek as a kitten about it. The Russians might have hacked into the DNC and released some embarrassing information about  things they actually WERE doing and he's moving troops to the Russian border. It makes no sense to me.

Because Obola's only true enemy in the world are Republicans.

"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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Because China is a threat to certain interests and Russia isn't. Same way they can get all in a rage over ISIS barbarianism but handwave away Saudi Arabia or Greatest Ally doing shady ****.

KP  its inaccurate and unfair to compare Saudi Arabia to ISIS

 

ISIS  is much, much worse 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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