Help Designing a Melee Cipher Build

[Boeroer]

With a maxed Holy Radiance (>40 MIG,level 16, 3+3 dispositions) you can do nearly 400 damage to vessels if I remember correctly. Brilliant Radiance however is totally useless in my opinion. It doesn't do a lot of damage to non-vessels and you don't need that tiny increase against vessels. I'd never pick it again. Tested it - it's not worth a talent point.

 

I like Inspiring Radiance because it stacks with everything and let's you hit better with your party's debuffs at the start of the encounter, which makes fights easier.

And since I always use the Insp. Radiance at the start of the encounter I also like Aggrandizing Radiance because it let's your spells last a bit longer, hit more precisely, do more damage & healing and so on. And you'll have +2 move speed which is neat for a melee priest who wants to reach his target quickly after buffing. And like it was said above, the gimped healing only affects you, not the party (doesn't matter for me anyways because I simply ignore the healing part anyways).

Edited January 7, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

So I rolled up a Boreal Dwarf Cipher with 10/10/18/16/16/8 for Attributes. Using a small shield and his starting Warhammer he does builds focus incredibly slowly (a lot of hits don't even build 1 point). Obviously a Sabre and Biting Whip will help, but I think I might have to go with a two-hander or dual wielding in the early game, or not take such low Might.

 

I also took Soul Shock for a spin. It's really hurt compared to Mind Wave by its Average casting time. It seems to me that the optimal level one Powers are Antipathetic Field, Mind Wave and Whisper of Treason. Eye Strike is good an all, but there are lots of other good sources of AoE blind (chillfog) out there, not really sure about Tenuous Grasp.

[Elric Galad]

Pretty similar to mine, except for 2 more might, and 2 less dex. I wanted just a little bit more might for damage spells (you get slightly less focus with might than with dex, but you use it more efficiently).

 

Except mine fought from reach with a quatterstaff (and was not my main, she had a party to tank for her).

 

I'm totally in line with your level 1 powers.

Level 1 powers are (comparatively) weak, so their casting speed is a very huge factor. It makes them time-economically spammable, and it is exactly what you want.

Whisper of Treason 3.0 is especially good for this reason.

Antipathetic field is circonstancial but strong when well placed. It remains useful from time to time at high level.

 

Also consider some Power levels have less interesting spells than the number you can pick (level 6 post-mind plague nerf, I'm looking at you. Level 7 too...).

So you might pick eyestrike later.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Elric Galad

[JerekKruger]

I was toying with raising Might a bit, not so much for the extra damage but for the extra Fortitude defence. It's also the reason I didn't reduce Constitution, and I'll probably take Bear's Fortitude at some point.

 

I realised something about Antipathetic Field. Even if you simply cast it at your direct melee target and no one else gets hit by the beam, it's still pretty good damage compared to the other level one powers.

[MaxQuest]

0.2 not 0.25. The elemental perks provide 20% bonus.

Thanks for pointing out. I have updated my previous post.

 

What about Dragon's Bell? It has 8 DR penetration (and it's burn DR bonus stacks with everything). You can get it quite early and I guess it's a good cipher weapon until you get the BotEP.

It could indeed be decent.

Since stacking attack speed items and properties suffers of increasing returns (until you hit 0-recovery), going for DR-penetration route could be a viable alternative, until you can start critting really often, or can get the [DW+TWF+SwiftActionGloves/Durgan Enchants] or the affore-mentiontioned BotEP + Gloves/Enchants.

 

Enemy DR list for reference.

[MaxQuest]

Last question before I start my character: powers, what's good? In particular what's good early game and is Antipathetic Field worth taking for a melee Cipher?

 

For level one and two, the only powers I absolutely know I'll take are Whisper of Treason and Mental Binding.

Antipathetic field is good, and is a must if you want to go to bear cave on level 2.

Although I usually rush to the tavern to get the hirelings first, and prefer take on lvl 1: Whispers of Treason (because it's just awesome) and Soul Shock because it has one of the best dmg/focus coefficient and really easies some of early encounters. Ofc later I'd get Mind Wave and Eyestrike.

 

But already by mid-game I'll mostly use only Whispers and sometimes Mind Wave out of these first level powers. Mostly because they are fast casts and my melee cipher is equipped in plate, so there is little reason to spend extra time on this casts, when they can be thrown by a ranged cipher in cloth armor. (thus aside from Whispers, finishing Thrust or emergency Mental Binding and Wave, melee cipher mostly uses higher-costed 30f+ accessible powers, to minimize time spent on casting)

 

Boreal Dwarf Cipher with 10/10/18/16/16/8

But with your spread, taking all cc-related powers is just perfect.

You will likely use: Whispers, Mind Wave, Mental Binding, Silent Scream and Amplified Wave a great tonne.

(I haven't listed Puppet Master, because Whispers superseeds it, but this power is still a must vs dragons immune to charm. There go also Tactical Meld and Borrowed Instinct, as they are used mostly in boss fights.)

 

 

P.S. Khm, intended to edit/append to the previous post, not create a new one.

Edited January 7, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Ha! You should have listened to my recommendation and use a sabre & small shield and max MIG and INT plus Vet. Recovery incl. healing bonuses. Now you have whimpy damage with a war hammer and don't build focus.

 

Or take the same approach but with an estoc. Drake's Bell is waiting for you.

Less survivability but more focus for sure.

 

Edit: MaxQuest - as far as I remember there's only one dragon who's immune to charm. And that's one of the two who are with Llengrath. There it doesn't matter much because you can charm the other one. Or did I miss one? I think that I charmed every dragon but this one in the swamp with my Counselor Ploi paladin (Zealous Focus + Sworn Enemy + Munacra Arret).

Edited January 8, 2017 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Paladin with coordinated attack + marking weapon + Devotion for the faithful + blessing or zealous focus + anti beast chant (or anti-beast armor) + Cipher = great fun with dragons 

I would probably use Puppetmster in this case, just for the fun of having a full-powered dragon on my side.

 

By the way, do you guys know if several paladin with coordinated attack or several marking weapons stack ?

[Boeroer]

Maybe... But even if they do stack (what I suspect) it might not be very reliable. Let's say you have two marking + coordinating paladins and one cipher. How do you make sure only the cipher profits from the ACC buffs and not one of the paladins? Too much fuzz for my taste. If you can figure out a way then I'm all in!

For me, the perfect setup is a marking Darcozzi Paladini with Coordinated Attacks, Zealous Focus and Inspiring Exhortation, a priest with Inspiring Radiance and Devotions and a cipher with Tactical Meld casting it on the paladin. That way you will have +86 ACC on your cipher, +96 with Whisper of Treason. It should all stack. You could even add Borrowed Insticts. I think it stacks, too for +106. But thats too much focus waste for buffing in my opinion. +86 is enough to crit-charm any enemy most of the time as long if there's no immunity involved. When you exchange the cipher with a fighter you can nearly do the same with prone. I always crit-proned my dragons until they where dead. As far as I remember there are no dragons who are immune to prone. The +10 resistance mean nothing. Maybe the flying one is immune? Can't remember...

Edited January 8, 2017 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Borrowed instinct does not stack with devotion for the faithful accuracy part.

Oh, yes, tactical meld. But mm, I think I prefer being able to cast it right at the beginning of the fight, and tactical meld is probably too much focus for this. With all that Acc, I suppose I won't miss any dragon anyway.

 

The flying one should be immune to ground, which is not the subtype of the fighter's knockown. And fighter even has disciplined barrage and 5 more acc than cipher for even more Accuracy galore. Plus knockdown is a full attack, so you'll get 2 Prone rolls if you dual wield.

 

I think I found my plan against the alpine ^^ I was slightly worried because my party has no druid nor wizard to petrify him.

But a phase 1 Dominating the dragon to kill the adds, followed by a phase 2 knocking the dragon with my high acc fighter will do the trick ^^

Edited January 8, 2017 by Elric Galad

[JerekKruger]

Ha! You should have listened to my recommendation and use a sabre & small shield and max MIG and INT plus Vet. Recovery incl. healing bonuses. Now you have whimpy damage with a war hammer and don't build focus.

 

You make the mistake of assuming I haven't respeced or restarted

 

Also that Warhammer was just the weapon my Cipher started with. As far as I could tell, none of the Cipher cultures start with a sabre and Heodan doesn't sell one, so the earliest you can get one is by stealing Edér's or buying one from the shop in GV.

 

Maybe... But even if they do stack (what I suspect) it might not very reliable. Let's say you have two marking + coordinating paladins and one cipher. How do you make sure only the cipher profits from the ACC buffs and not one of the paladins? Too much fuzz for my taste. If you can figure out a way then I'm all in! 

 

 

How does coordinating attacks and marking weapons decide who gets the buff? I had always assumed it was based on proximity, but I've never payed that much attention.

Edited January 8, 2017 by JerekKruger

[mosspit]

So I rolled up a Boreal Dwarf Cipher with 10/10/18/16/16/8 for Attributes. Using a small shield and his starting Warhammer he does builds focus incredibly slowly (a lot of hits don't even build 1 point). Obviously a Sabre and Biting Whip will help, but I think I might have to go with a two-hander or dual wielding in the early game, or not take such low Might.

 

I also took Soul Shock for a spin. It's really hurt compared to Mind Wave by its Average casting time. It seems to me that the optimal level one Powers are Antipathetic Field, Mind Wave and Whisper of Treason. Eye Strike is good an all, but there are lots of other good sources of AoE blind (chillfog) out there, not really sure about Tenuous Grasp.

Hmmm 18dex... Guess you are aiming for some atk spd / recovery break point later huh?

 

And don't bother with Trenous Grasp. The only good thing about it is being able to cast out of combat, so to initiate combat with the target confused. But confuse status is very meh, you would have to bang on it to cause the target to attack its allies for the status to be most effective. And also no stats debuff. Tried it for a while until I had to restart, then didn't pick it subsequently. You might as well start the combat and use the focus to cast whispers.

[JerekKruger]

Hmmm 18dex... Guess you are aiming for some atk spd / recovery break point later huh?

 

Ner, it's for casting speed, although I'm not sure whether I'll keep it there.

[Elric Galad]

 

So I rolled up a Boreal Dwarf Cipher with 10/10/18/16/16/8 for Attributes. Using a small shield and his starting Warhammer he does builds focus incredibly slowly (a lot of hits don't even build 1 point). Obviously a Sabre and Biting Whip will help, but I think I might have to go with a two-hander or dual wielding in the early game, or not take such low Might.

 

I also took Soul Shock for a spin. It's really hurt compared to Mind Wave by its Average casting time. It seems to me that the optimal level one Powers are Antipathetic Field, Mind Wave and Whisper of Treason. Eye Strike is good an all, but there are lots of other good sources of AoE blind (chillfog) out there, not really sure about Tenuous Grasp.

Hmmm 18dex... Guess you are aiming for some atk spd / recovery break point later huh?

 

I don't get it. Dex is independant from recovery speed... and it is always a multiplicative factor.

[Boeroer]

But it reduces recovery, too (if any left).

 

The charm + knockdown approach with high ACC is one of the best ways to kill dragons in my opinion. I didn't even have a cipher. Only my charming paladin, melee priest and max INT knockdown fighter. All three sturdy enough to survive a few attacks. As you said: first charm the dragon and occupy him and his ads with killing each other, then later rush in and prone him until he's dead. I also had a barb, a druid and a wizard, but they just watched.  

 

So I assume cipher will work equally well - even more charms and other good stuff in the quiver and nearly same ACC if needed.

[MaxQuest]

Edit: MaxQuest - as far as I remember there's only one dragon who's immune to charm. And that's one of the two who are with Llengrath. There it doesn't matter much because you can charm the other one. Or did I miss one? I think that I charmed every dragon but this one in the swamp with my Counselor Ploi paladin (Zealous Focus + Sworn Enemy + Munacra Arret).

Actually you are right. I remember that I charmed one, dominated the other and proceeded to kill Llengrath. But that dominate wasn't really that needed.

 

How does coordinating attacks and marking weapons decide who gets the buff? I had always assumed it was based on proximity, but I've never payed that much attention.

By the way, do you guys know if several paladin with coordinated attack or several marking weapons stack?

Made a quick check:

- coordinated attack stacks with marking weapon

- coordinated attack from multiple paladins doesn't stack on the the same allied-member

- marking weapons from different characters doesn't stack on the same allied-member

- dual-wielding marking weapons stacks on the same allied-member

- the target to receive +10 accuracy, is decided at the moment when paladin receives an 'attack order' on an enemy. The target (for the buff) is the closest party-member to paladin at that moment. If the paladin receives another type of order like: stop, move or cast some spell not on that target, the 10 bonus accuracy are lost.

 

Plus knockdown is a full attack, so you'll get 2 Prone rolls if you dual wield.

It's nice to know...)

 

The charm + knockdown approach with high ACC is one of the best ways to kill dragons in my opinion.

Yeah, charm is great. Treason is also cheap, so even if it missed it can be quickly recasted. And with it's debuff to defenses it's way easier to land a disintegration or any other hard-cc.

I will consider using knockdown now too. Usually followed-up with Mental-Binding/Silent Scream or Gaze of Adragan before.

Edited January 8, 2017 by MaxQuest

[QuiteGoneJin]

But it reduces recovery, too (if any left).

 

The charm + knockdown approach with high ACC is one of the best ways to kill dragons in my opinion. I didn't even have a cipher. Only my charming paladin, melee priest and max INT knockdown fighter. All three sturdy enough to survive a few attacks. As you said: first charm the dragon and occupy him and his ads with killing each other, then later rush in and prone him until he's dead. I also had a barb, a druid and a wizard, but they just watched.

 

So I assume cipher will work equally well - even more charms and other good stuff in the quiver and nearly same ACC if needed.

Does domination work on dragon's? Thinking of that ring for non cipher parties that don't take the baby talent. 

[Boeroer]

The domination from the Ring of Changing Heart has no ACC bonus and is only 2/rest while Munacra Arret and Spirit Spiral both have 3 Whispers per rest at +10 ACC. The only advantage of the ring is that it has fast cast and can be cast out of combat.

 

All dragons but one can be charmed. The one who's immune is with Llengrath. But if you charm the other one they will attack each other, so who cares?

Edited January 8, 2017 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

@MaxQuest: whooha! Dual wielded marking weapons stack? That is totally new to me and great news. I guess I'll have to add a DW variant to my Counselor Ploi build.

 

Sadly, the only one handed marking weapons you can get are Shame and Glory + Cladhaliath. Looks really weird together. And since two spears also look stupid I guess the only tasty alternative is to clone Shame & Glory with the Helwax Mold.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Yeap, tried a paladin with Coordinating Attacks and dual-wielding Shame-or-Glory, and the closest cipher was getting +30acc.

 

As for double-spear looks... we need a troll race now)

[Boeroer]

Maybe a green Aumaua or wild orlan will do.

 

Or a Nature Godlike?

 

Oops - shame (and no glory) on me for naming it "Shame and Glory" and not "Shame or Glory". Second time this week after Dragon's Bell. You can tell I didn't play that game for a long time now.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Boeroer

[QuiteGoneJin]

@MaxQuest: whooha! Dual wielded marking weapons stack? That is totally new to me and great news. I guess I'll have to add a DW variant to my Counselor Ploi build.

 

Sadly, the only one handed marking weapons you can get are Shame and Glory + Cladhaliath. Looks really weird together. And since two spears also look stupid I guess the only tasty alternative is to clone Shame & Glory with the Helwax Mold.

How do you trigger the Helwax Mold quest? Is it completely random?

[Boeroer]

Yep. Random stronghold quest.

[JerekKruger]

I've found myself heading to Caed Nua fairly early and beelining the Main Keep upgrade specifically to maximise the number of random adventures I end up getting. Probably silly on my part but it has become a habit.

[JerekKruger]

Quick question: is it me, or is Mind Wave's targetting template messed up? Whenever I cast it the template appears centred on my character rather than the intended target. It makes it even harder to accurately use it.