Question About Barbarian Abilities

[limaxophobiacq]

Welp. Seems I'm not going with Spelltongue. Or at leas not spelltongue + bloodlust as when I tried it I ended up with a +260% attack speed bonus.

 

Is Bloodlust coded to stack with everything including itself maybe? Because it doesnt happend with DaoM.

 

Also it seems to again(still?) prolong buffs even when attacking enemies without buffs, though certainly not by 5 seconds per hit but something much smaller. It's a very confusing weapon.

 

 

Steadfast + Unlabored Blade: Champion's Boon and Deathblows + Scion of Flame applied on Firebug. 

 

Would be cool when it worked, but 25% chance on kill isn't exactly reliable.

Edited October 23, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[Boeroer]

Yes, Bloodlust stacks with everything. But I never experienced that it stacks with itself. At least not with sabres. Maybe it's an interference between HoF, the attack speed & the buff duration stealing from Spelltongue and Bloodlust. When I use Spelltongue with normal auto attacks and get Bloodlust this never happened for me (see the Leech build).

 

You should write up a bug report for 3.04. Maybe they can quickly fix this.

[limaxophobiacq]

Report written. Happened with regular auto-attacks.

[Jojobobo]

Maybe mention it into the 3.04 wishlist thread too?

[Boeroer]

Yeah, that'd be good, too.

[Remix]

I've used barbarians quite a bit.

 

The thing about them is unless you build them into a tank (put points into con over res) you'll be kinda squishy at first. The barb's health pool is so large, though, even at a base of 10 (as long as you have some means of healing) it will be a pretty effective investment over res. You don't have to min-max a barb, though. Not if you plan on using it as a frontliner at least.

 

Initially, though, you're best bet is to use a pike and avoid being on the front line where possible. After level 4 or 5, though, you can switch to another weapon and operate on the front lines more. You'll have more endurance to make use of your gigantic health pool and after taking savage defiance you'll effectively have two rounds worth of max endurance by level 4 or 5.

 

Also, pairing a barb with a chanter, priest or paladin allows you to offset the defensive deficiencies of a barbarian with their buffs. So, consider that.

 

I usually use something along the lines of a build like this:

 

Max might

Base con

Base dex

Base per

Max int

Base res

 

I always pick frenzy from the start and I'm playing on potd. Savage defiance is your bread and butter and get it asap (especially since it gives a defensive boost with a subsequent upgrade talent).

Edited November 3, 2016 by Remix

[Boeroer]

If you pick Veteran's Recovery and Savage Defiance as early as possible and fetch Fulvano's Amulet early (and later Shod-in-Faith, too), and also go for 8 survival in order to get 40% healing bonus from camping (meaning +65% together), you can also dual wield at the early levels without getting knocked out.

You will be even tougher than a dual wielding fighter because he won't have any self healing ability besides Constant Recovery and less endurance and health.

But of course you will lack a bit of ACC at first because you put everything into sturdyness as soon as possible. But that's better than getting knocked out all the time and doing no damage at all while lying flat on the face. Later, after some levels, there's enough room for dps talents/abilites. With a party, you can achieve 14 survival and have +85% healing bonus. But when solo you will also need some lore (dragons!) and mechanics when solo.

 

I did a PoTD solo barb with focus on self heals and dual sabres and it worked pretty well even in Act I. And the more levels you get the more awesome your endurance and asp. health pool will be - as you said. Max CON is also fun with a barb. After lvl 11 (Heart of Fury) that solo run became a walk in the park.

 

My solo runner had those stats:

 

MIG 20

CON 20

DEX 02

PER 15

INT 18

RES 03

 

Frenzy, Bloodlust + Blood Thirst as well as dual wielding and Two Weapon Style make up for the low DEX. Very sturdy - esp. because of sky high fortitude. Was a lot of fun.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Boeroer

[Remix]

Healing bonuses are a huge must for any frontline barb. If you strategize correctly you can continuously draw from your health pool to the point where your endurance is almost a moot stat and your overall health effectively becomes your "endurance" in every encounter.

 

This goes even further if you're able to equip a solid endurance draining weapon. It will synergize with carnage and allow you to heal a decent degree of health with every hit.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Remix

[Boeroer]

That's right. Although a weapon with prone or stun on crit does more for your endurance and health pool than draining (which dosen't profit from any healing bonuses by the way). Enemies who can't fight back because they are disabled usually don't hurt you.

[Remix]

Yeah. Prone or stun + carnage is a deadly combo.

 

I have a barb paired with two chanters in my current party. As soon as I cast the chanters' stat boosting invocations on my barb simultaneously the +6 to all stats turns him into a monstrous death machine.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Remix

[Boeroer]

It's +5 as far as I know. Those buffs are nice because they last so long.

 

But if both chanters would stack-chant "The Dragon Thrashed" your barb would look like a wet noodle slapper in comparison, no matter how hard he hits.

[Remix]

Is it? It's been a while since I've checked that specifically.

 

Oh dragon-thrashed. Chanters are my preferred class as a main character for that chant. Haha. That and their ice blast invocation (seven knights?). It is probably my biggest go-to attack. Landing 3 or 4 of the "darts" on a boss is so satisfying.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Remix

[Remix]

Although because I use chanters so often I tend to try and aggro as many enemies on the map into a single encounter as possible. It's a fun little self-challenge. So buffing my barb like this can basically turn him into an aggro tank that engages new groups of enemies like a total boss.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Remix

[Kaylon]

It's +5 as far as I know. Those buffs are nice because they last so long.

 

But if both chanters would stack-chant "The Dragon Thrashed" your barb would look like a wet noodle slapper in comparison, no matter how hard he hits.

Not really, the advantage of the chanter is the big AoE with very little investment, but the dps is just average even at lv16 with 30int/mig compared to what a barb can achieve. The dps of a barbarian with Tidefall, Firebrand or Reaping Knives is 2-3 times higher.

[Remix]

It's different strengths, really. Chanters can hit more enemies with their huge AOE and avoid engagements while doing so. Barbs can repeatedly apply disables with each attack, though.

 

That's why I am currently using both in my old valia all max intellegence party.

[Boeroer]

 

Not really, the advantage of the chanter is the big AoE with very little investment, but the dps is just average even at lv16 with 30int/mig compared to what a barb can achieve. The dps of a barbarian with Tidefall, Firebrand or Reaping Knives is 2-3 times higher.

 

It's certainly not. DPS is not only the single target damage, it's the combined damage he does in the whole AoE. Do a solo fight against any bounty on PoTD (more enemies than the barb can cover with carnage) with a chanter and then a barb and then we talk again. The chanter will kill all foes a lot faster every time. One of the many advantages of the chanter is that he doesn't stop chanting when he's prone and his chants don't get interrupted. At lvl 16 with normal stats (optimized, but not fully buffed with consumables and stuff) he will deliver a Dragon Thrashed chant with 60 to 80 burn AND 60 to 80 slash damage every 4 seconds in a very, very big AoE which no barb can ever achieve. I did tons of solo fights with both classes to find new powerful builds and while I really love barbs there's nothing that kills mobs faster than a chanter with Dragon Thrashed - not even wizards. Even if we think about optimzed HoF which is very powerful - that can go horribly wrong or it's AoE is not big enough to kill all enemies. The chanter just has to stand there and let them come. Plus: He can always lob a few AoE spells on the enemies' heads while burning and slashing them.

 

And then there's two of them - instead of casting those +5 buffs on the barb (which they will likely achieve with lvl 1 phrases) the party performance would be a lot better if they both would sinply chant The Dragon Thrashed. You wouldn't even notice if the barb left the party, frustrated...

Edited November 3, 2016 by Boeroer

[Remix]

Barb's carnage also has a damage penalty applied to the enemies hit by carnage if I'm not mistaken.

 

Chanter chants do the same damage to everyone they hit (not including each individual foe's defenses and rolls).

Edited November 3, 2016 by Remix

[Remix]

 

instead of casting those +5 buffs on the barb (which they will likely achieve with lvl 1 phrases) the party performance would be a lot better if they both would sinply chant The Dragon Thrashed. You wouldn't even notice if the barb left the party, frustrated...

To be fair I was the one who said that. Not the person arguing that barbs deal more dps.

 

Personally, though, I try to cast the +5 invocations as an encounter is nearing its end.

 

If the encounter does end I have a +5 to all stats for about enough time to rush my party into a second encounter with my barb and paladin at the head.

 

I also don't use the same chanters in my party. One is a damage dealer with max might - the other is a disabling tank with min might. I'm sure I could still use dragon thrashed on the one with min might but I don't like to be too redundant if I use multiple characters with the same class.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Remix

[Raven Darkholme]

I've got to disagree with Boroer here and agree with Kaylon.

The chanter deals damage to slowly compared to a barbarian.

Dragon thrashed is really awesome when you get it at level 9 and go up against high dr targets, a barb will look lost then.

But as soon as you get to crit frequently the dps of the barb will be much higher.

Let's not forget, that stacking takes time, too and before stacking dragon trash does not ignore armor.

Before the chanters insane dps kicks in, at high level many fights will be over.

As said before that's different at lower levels on 9 to say 12 the chanter is the king of the castle.

[Kaylon]

Like I said, the chanter has the advantage of the greater AoE, but his damage is far behind the barbarian.

 

The base damage of Dragon Trashed is 20dmg evey 3s (10slash+10fire), and with 3 stacks (lv16 and 30int) it becomes every 1s - that damage can only be increased by might. Tidefall base dmg is 17 slash/thrust + 4.25*(1+mig bonus) raw + 4.25 lash and all that is increased by might and all the melee bonuses you can get. With deleterious alacrity you can swing even a 2h weapon once per second. Add to that more criticals with higher damage and you can have a better understanding of their relative dps potential. 

[Boeroer]

I'm not arguing The Dragon Thrashed vs a whole barb. I'm arguing chanter vs. barb. If you want to compare abilities only we could do Dragon vs. HoF.

 

The Dragon Thrashed also does more damage with a crit (not *1.5 though) - so that's not an argument in favor of the barb.

 

The thing is the huge radius. And dps is all the damage you do combined in a given time. If the encounter ends more quickly your dps was higher. Higher numbers that pop out of enemies' heads don't mean the overall DPS is higher. The ultimate test in game is to start encounter and count the seconds until the encounter ends.

 

When fighting bounties solo with a single handed chanter with maxed out ACC and Aspirant's Mark (and focus on self healing rather than deflection) a lvl 16 chanter always finishes the encounter more quickly for me than a barb - because he covers ALL enemies. With 22 INT and 22 PER and 20 MIG (doesn't need to be 30 - I try to argue with numbers that you can have every encounter without too much fuzz) - an item with Overseeing and the Voice of the Mountaintop he will cover an enormous radius and will hit with over 120 ACC with his chant without ANY buff. Cast Aspirant's Mark at the start of the encounter from stealth and go in. You will have killed the whole group more quickly than any barb. Maybe in theory, on paper and when everything goes smooth the barb could end the encounter more quickly - but in reality I don't see that happen too often - you will get interrupted, maybe go prone and then tour DPS stops. And as I said: the chanter can do other stuff while chanting - like dropping 3 fireballs on enemies' heads or stuff. A barb can't do this without stopping his swings.

As I said: during many tests I did not encounter a barb who could kill - let's say the Ogres in Elmshore - faster than said chanter. An I did solo runs until that point with both. You seldomly have the perfect encounter with a barb where you reach all enemies with HoF. Sometimes you have casters standing elsewhere and you have to pull (=loss of dps). Sometimes you get disabled.

 

Maybe in theory, against training dolls, the damage output of a barb can be higher, but I doubt it's the case when you actually play the game.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

You know this is great fun for me, arguing about ths stuff.

 

I had an idea...

 

Watch here: PoE Class Build Arena

Edited November 4, 2016 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

A solo chanter has more damage compared to a chanter in party just because of the way the chant works being a DoT and having to stack.

Solo fights take longer that favors the chanter.

His dps increases with time.

And the bigger AoE matters more solo, too.

[Boeroer]

See? How do you want to compare the dps potential if not competing solo? With a party there are too many possibilites, synergies and so on to really compare dps without a ton of kerfuffle.

[Raven Darkholme]

Well I just repeated what I said before but clarified what was unclear in my post before.

So both of you are right but just in different circumstances.