New character decision

[Zeraili]

Hello, I would like to start new game and cant decide about main class.  I was wondering about melee dps and was thinking about barbarian or monk? Could You help me with decision. It would be dps with some survivability and it would be with small party of npc's What class would be better or more fun?

regards

[AndreaColombo]

Fighter

 

 

/ducks from the incoming choir of "booo"

 

 

 

 

Seriously, though. I'm personally not a fan of Barbarians because they're far from my play style and preferences; Fighters ans Monks, on the other hands, are both very good in my book. Fighters tend to be more passive on average (although they do have some active abilities) so they're the way to go if you like low-maintenance characters; Monks shine when played actively.

Edited October 19, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Boeroer]

Choose monk and take Veteran's Recovery as first talent and Torment's Reach as first ability. You'll have a sturdy melee guy with great AoE damage right from the start.

 

Barbarians are also nice. But he is weaker at the beginning of the game so many beginners think they are bad (which they are not). They become very sturdy characters later on and can do INSANE damage later on, but need quite some levels to shrug off the disadvantage of lower starting stats.

 

Fighters are reliable but can only do single target damage until later levels (and then it's limited). However, they can be build to deal impressive and consistent damage with very high accuracy. They are my favorite class to take down dragons and other bosses. Both barbarian and also monk can't reach such high levels of accuracy.

 

Overall, I think the monk is the most powerful of the three.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

Choose monk and take Veteran's Recovery as first talent and Torment's Reach as first ability. You'll have a sturdy melee guy with insane AoE damage right from the start.

This.

[JerekKruger]

Monks are absolutely great fun to play, assuming you don't mind a bit of management. The whole powering their abilities through taking damage makes them ideal offtank/damage dealers, and you can build them more in one direction or the other. Also their abilities are generally good, and also generally fun.

 

Barbarians are, as Boeroer said, quite fragile early on, which can be frustrating for newer players expecting a melee brawler who can take some hits. In the early game you'll probably want to use a reach weapon and/or wait for your tankier characters to gain aggro before engaging. That said, the Barbarian's basic ability is great, and something that might not be immediately obvious to a new player is that the Carnage attacks carry any on hit properties of the weapon the Barbarian's original attack was made with. Thus you can build Barbarians who can be great melee crowd controllers. On top of this, at higher levels the Barbarian gets some tools for survivability that makes them more forgiving, and gain an amazing comb in Dragon Leap followed by Heart of Fury: jump into the middle of a big group of enemies, activate Heart of Fury, laugh as all of them are hit by multiple carnage hits and melt.

 

Whilst Fighters weren't on your shortlist I will quickly mention that they might fit what you're looking for. They are actually (arguably) best build as an offtank/damage dealer (see the Lady of Pain build in the build section) rather than a pure tank. This might not be obvious since in many recent CRPGs, and almost all MMOs, Fighters tend to be mostly dedicated to tanking. The thing is, if you build a Fighter in PoE as a pure tank then sure, they'll be an excellent tank, but they won't do anything else. If you build them more for damage they'll still be a good tank, but they'll also be one of the best single target damage dealers out there. In particularly, if you're not keen on micromanaging your characters, a Fighter provides a good brawler type character who is largely dependent on passive abilities.

[AeonsLegend]

Probably the most versatile melee DPS class is the Cipher. Aside from big damage boosts on normal attacks they also get a plethora of cc spells, raw damage spells and siphoning spells. Works great alongside a tank on the front-line.

 

I second the fighter. Early on might be a bit linear in terms of gameplay, but even if built squishy they can be very sturdy with a few abilities and talents. Plus they have the best base stats in the game so building them squishy is very forgiving. They get a lot of great abilities late in the game, such as Charge, which decimates enemies in a line towards the squishy target you wanted to go for. No class in the game can do this.

 

Monk is very much like a fighter. Similar abilities. A bit lower on the damage end overall and takes a while to get going, but a very sturdy and versatile pick in the later stages of the game. The only trope with them as a DPS build is that most of their abilities require receiving damage before you're able to use them. So they can't use them at the start of battle.

[Raven Darkholme]

I do agree on the cipher part, but not on what you say about monk.

The monk Boroer described is the strongest solochar in Act 1 which I would definitely define as earlygame.

It has MUCH more punching power than a fighter.

[AeonsLegend]

I do agree on the cipher part, but not on what you say about monk.

The monk Boroer described is the strongest solochar in Act 1 which I would definitely define as earlygame.

It has MUCH more punching power than a fighter.

one-for-one the fighter has more damage output right off the bat because of their damage buffs. Buffs that monks do not get. Torments reach is great in debuffing and AoE damage, but the output is very similar to the Fighter if you count the passive buffs. Plus a fighter requires nothing to get going. I think they're very similar overall, but the ability Charge on the fighter just puts the monk to shame. The monk has nothing in his/her kit that can destroy 3-4 enemies in the first second of combat. And even though I enjoy the monk immensely I can't get passed the fact that their passive wound generation is completly counter intuitive to what an actual assassin style character should bring to the table, which is to decimate enemies without them being able to respond. 

[Raven Darkholme]

 

I do agree on the cipher part, but not on what you say about monk.

The monk Boroer described is the strongest solochar in Act 1 which I would definitely define as earlygame.

It has MUCH more punching power than a fighter.

one-for-one the fighter has more damage output right off the bat because of their damage buffs. Buffs that monks do not get. Torments reach is great in debuffing and AoE damage, but the output is very similar to the Fighter if you count the passive buffs. Plus a fighter requires nothing to get going. I think they're very similar overall, but the ability Charge on the fighter just puts the monk to shame. The monk has nothing in his/her kit that can destroy 3-4 enemies in the first second of combat. And even though I enjoy the monk immensely I can't get passed the fact that their passive wound generation is completly counter intuitive to what an actual assassin style character should bring to the table, which is to decimate enemies without them being able to respond. 

 

That doesn't make any sense, Charge is not early game.

Monk has torments reach, fighter has what? Knockdown?

Please.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Raven Darkholme

[Slack83er]

Noone mentioned Paladin. While this class won't ever be "the best of" something, it has some neat abilities that not only keep your party in health, but are also quite punishing, like FoD. Moreover, if you like to feel as the group leader, the paladin will undoubtedly fit, even though this game does not include class-specific quests.

[AeonsLegend]

I have also played as a DPS paladin. Really strong and can easily solo. Bleak Walkers get some nice damage buffs and enemy debuffs on kills. The accuracy aura with extra crit chance is nice too. Like the fighter min maxing is very forgiving because of their passive and high basic stats. They have a lot of really useful extra support abilities, but I found their damage a bit lacking when comparing them to the top tier classes, but they're definitely viable. They also have no innate cc abilities, which is a shame.

 

 

 

I do agree on the cipher part, but not on what you say about monk.

The monk Boroer described is the strongest solochar in Act 1 which I would definitely define as earlygame.

It has MUCH more punching power than a fighter.

one-for-one the fighter has more damage output right off the bat because of their damage buffs. Buffs that monks do not get. Torments reach is great in debuffing and AoE damage, but the output is very similar to the Fighter if you count the passive buffs. Plus a fighter requires nothing to get going. I think they're very similar overall, but the ability Charge on the fighter just puts the monk to shame. The monk has nothing in his/her kit that can destroy 3-4 enemies in the first second of combat. And even though I enjoy the monk immensely I can't get passed the fact that their passive wound generation is completly counter intuitive to what an actual assassin style character should bring to the table, which is to decimate enemies without them being able to respond. 

 

That doesn't make any sense, Charge is not early game.

Monk has torments reach, fighter has what? Knockdown?

Please.

 

 

I didn't say early game when I mentioned charge, I said it is a unique ability. Torments Reach requires a wound so it's not an off the bat use in a battle. Depending on the circumstance knockdown is much more useful than Torments Reach. It's an extra damaging cc ability that allows you to hit an enemy that cannot fight back and has lowered deflection. Torments Reach requires someone to hurt you and then you just have a bit of extra damage to fight back. I'm not saying it's bad or isn't useful, it's just not the same thing. For me, Knockdown is a much more useful skill than Torments Reach.

[Boeroer]

Charge comes very late. Until you take it (or Clear Out) your fighter can only deal single target damage and CC - and even that, let's face it, the monk can do better with fewer talents & abilities as long as you gain some wounds and are willing to invest more micromanagement. You need to have wounds to make a monk worthwhile, but then he will *always* outperform a fighter n sheer dps - even in one-on-one. He has no per-encounter limits for most of his abilities like the fighter. And with Lightning Strikes and Turning Wheel he can pile up +50% burning lash +25% shocking lash with just 1 abilitiy and 1 talent, where the fighter needs to take 2 abilities to get +25% damage. But this is true: the fighter can start right away because he needs no wounds - and he needs less micromanagement because of that.

 

Flagellant's Path is the same as Charge by the way, only that it comes earlier, with a debuff and you need wounds first. Maybe Charge's range is higher, can't say atm.

 

The best thing about a fighter compared to a monk when it comes to offense is Disciplined Barrage: this makes him very good against very tough (boss) foes. He can reach ACC values the monk can't.

 

But generally: go to the Abbey of the Fallen Moon or to Crägholt Bluffs and tell me: which kith enemy did annoy you most?

[Slack83er]

I have also played as a DPS paladin. Really strong and can easily solo. Bleak Walkers get some nice damage buffs and enemy debuffs on kills. The accuracy aura with extra crit chance is nice too. Like the fighter min maxing is very forgiving because of their passive and high basic stats. They have a lot of really useful extra support abilities, but I found their damage a bit lacking when comparing them to the top tier classes, but they're definitely viable. They also have no innate cc abilities, which is a shame.

The cc thing is sadly true. You only boost your comrades, but nothing you can do vs mobs... you leave it to others.... but whether you like it or not is a matter of playstyle.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

I didn't say early game when I mentioned charge, I said it is a unique ability. Torments Reach requires a wound so it's not an off the bat use in a battle. Depending on the circumstance knockdown is much more useful than Torments Reach. It's an extra damaging cc ability that allows you to hit an enemy that cannot fight back and has lowered deflection. Torments Reach requires someone to hurt you and then you just have a bit of extra damage to fight back. I'm not saying it's bad or isn't useful, it's just not the same thing. For me, Knockdown is a much more useful skill than Torments Reach.

The initial post of you about the monk said the monk was weaker early and stronger late, which is absolutely untrue.

Yes you didn't repeat that when you mentioned charge but you quoted my answer to your first post.

Whatever, both monk and fighter can be quite good I personally like the monk others fighter it's a question of personal preference.

[AeonsLegend]

Charge comes very late. Until you take it (or Clear Out) your fighter can only deal single target damage and CC - and even that, let's face it, the monk can do better with fewer talents & abilities as long as you gain some wounds and are willing to invest more micromanagement. You need to have wounds to make a monk worthwhile, but then he will *always* outperform a fighter n sheer dps - even in one-on-one. He has no per-encounter limits for most of his abilities like the fighter. And with Lightning Strikes and Turning Wheel he can pile up +50% burning lash +25% shocking lash with just 1 abilitiy and 1 talent, where the fighter needs to take 2 abilities to get +25% damage. But this is true: the fighter can start right away because he needs no wounds - and he needs less micromanagement because of that.

 

Flagellant's Path is the same as Charge by the way, only that it comes earlier, with a debuff and you need wounds first. Maybe Charge's range is higher, can't say atm.

 

The best thing about a fighter compared to a monk when it comes to offense is Disciplined Barrage: this makes him very good against very tough (boss) foes. He can reach ACC values the monk can't.

 

But generally: go to the Abbey of the Fallen Moon or to Crägholt Bluffs and tell me: which kith enemy did annoy you most?

 

Depending on the fight the monk can fare similar to the fighter, but after you get charge, which for me is before WM and Burial Isle you can take down enemies of your choice at the start of battle. So yes Flagellant's Path is similar in your character teleporting from a to b, but you can't use it to get to that wizard or druid or other cc-ing enemy at the start of the battle and instakill him. Also Charge hits everything between your starting point and your destination and then uses 2 auto attacks on arrival on top of the ability damage (i think it's not supposed to do that, but yeah 250+ damage on arrival is nice. In a choke point your monk is stuck beating up a tank while the enemy backline throws pain onto your party with spells. Fighters are the only class that can prevent that from happening with absolute certainty.

 

Also wounds time out after a while during battle and as far as I could tell lashes don't benefit from crit so base damage should be more useful, but I could be wrong. My main character is a DPS monk, but I've been seeing much higher damage numbers on my fighter with a similar setup.

 

In Crägholt Bluffs the jumping ability was annoying because it prones your entire party. That's not a monk ability though.

Edited October 20, 2016 by AeonsLegend

[Boeroer]

as far as I could tell lashes don't benefit from crit so base damage should be more useful, but I could be wrong.

Lashes do profit from every damage modifier, also crit bonus damage.

 

Lashes get calculated with the whole pre DR damage that gets rolled - not only your base weapon damage. So - everything counts, even bonus from might.

 

A +25% lash (like from Lightning Strikes) usually means more damage than a simple +25% to weapon damage (like from Weapon Spec. + Mastery).

 

For example: a 25% shocking lash on a weapon with 10 base damage, with Savage Attack and 20 MIG that crits (=20 damage) would add additional 5 shock damage while a +25% damage mod like Weapon Spec + Weapon Mastery would "only" add 2.5 damage. But this is with 0 shock DR. A 25% shocking lash will get reduced by 1/4 of the enemy's shock DR.

 

Lashes work with the according talents like Scion of Flame by the way.

 

Also: you don't add base damage with things like Weapon Mastery. You only add a bonus that is derived from the weapon's base damage. A crit does the same thing - it does NOT take the whole damage you rolled and does *1.5 - it merely adds +50% weapon base damage to the roll.

You can't influence weapon's base damage at all.

Charge is powerful with crits because it doesn't use your weapon's base damage but it's own - which is way higher than most weapon's base damage. When you crit with charge the effect is much better than with weapon effects.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

Alright, well the more you know

[Boeroer]

Some people look at things like Charge, Clear Out or Into the Fray and think it's bad that they don't use weapon damage but their own. Because all your fancy weapon's damage mods and enchantments don't get applied - not realizing that it's actually better because the base damage of those abilities is much higher than that of your puny weapon - resulting in a lot more damage with crits and high MIG.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

Some people look at things like Charge, Clear Out or Into the Fray and think it's bad that they don't use weapon damage but their own. Because all your fancy weapon's damage mods and enchantments don't get applied - not realizing that it's actually better because the base damage of those ability is much higher than that of your puny weapon - resulting in a lot more damage with crits and high MIG.

 

Yeah I did the Sserkal bounty hunt within 6 seconds with just my fighter with two charges a knockdown and some basic attacks. But charge did most of the work.

[Boeroer]

I don't know if it's intended that charge is followed by a weapon attack when you arrive at the target - but it sure is fun and takes out most normal foes.

It may even be that the hit that follows is a full attack - didn't test that. That would call for dual wielding. With a pike for example you only get one additional hit. I use Disciplined Barrage + Aspirant's Mark before I charge with Tall Grass atm - so usually an enemy who's prone or dead is the result. The only tiny downside of Charge is that weapons on-crit effects like prone or stun don't work - except on the final target.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

The hit that follows is a full attack. Dual wielding hits twice, but does not use the cooldown of those attacks, only of the charge ability. So on arrival you can almost attack immediately again.

[Boeroer]

Yeah, that makes dual wielding kind of mandatory with charge. That additional Full Attack without recovery and all is the real advantage of the ability which makes it really strong. It may be that this is a bug, but I would vote for leaving it in even if it is - because Charge comes so late and the fighter has few really strong dps abilites besides Charge.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[Zeraili]

Monk looks very interesting especially this Monksterlasher build. Just out of curiosity what is at the moment highest dps meele class that wont die too fast like rogue, just overall ?

[Boeroer]

Monk throughout the whole game I'd say. After lvl 11 it's barbarian because of Heart of Fury and his huge endurance pool (which he gains through level ups). My current barb tank (!) has dealt 90k more damage than my second best dps char - my wizard - and at the same time he's the sturdiest member of my team (all lvl 16). But as I said: monks are good dps guys and sturdy right from the start.

[Zeraili]

Sound nice maybe ill just add barb to monk, would be there synergy between those two? What is Your barb tank build if I can ask?  And what would be good third/fourth party member for such duo?

Edited October 20, 2016 by Zeraili