Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?

[Ben No.3]

So I opened your first source, and I got this:

"As Eurocrats are imposed on Greece and Italy, DANIEL HANNAN say's he'd rather be governed by the first 100 people in the phone book than unelected professors"

Now Mr. Hannan... How would the first 100 people in te phone book be more elected than the professors you are talking about?

 

Anyway, do exuse me... I need to take a close look at Mr. Jones text.

[Ben No.3]

Comment on that text you linked

 

"Europe's [...]Jean Monnet (Founding Father Of The EU in a letter to a friend 30th April 1952).”

 

COMMENT: Sources please? Right now this is at best an heavy invasion of privacy, at worst it is simply made up

 

“On June 12th [...] Euro Fascists, whose credentials are appearing ever more Totalitarian in structure and ruthless in application, simply ignored the voice of the Irish voter, demanding there be a another vote, and this time, the rebellious Irish would have to get it right, or else.”

 

COMMENT: First of all, the term “Euro Fascist”, is simply incorrect. Fascism is a term to describe the political system and ideology set in place by Mussolini. Later, it was commonly used to describe other extremely nationalist, racist and tyrannic systems, such as nazi Germany. However, that generalisation of the term is not commonly accepted amongst historians.

Whichever definition you follow, it is definitely simply technically wrong to say the EU or its supporters are fascist.

 

The pressure to revote on the matter was born out of economical concern for both Ireland and the EU. It was also born out of political ideology, the treaty was meant to be a sign of unity.

 

COMMENT: And Ireland reversed the decision. Which just once again shows how horribly outdated this document is. It also talks of the threat of european federalism. Two problems: AT no point he shows us WHY that is a threat, and federalism is in no way similar to fascism. SO which is it?

As the document is only after a few paragraphs in heavy dispute with itself, I cannot take this in any way seriously. I fear this document lacks any validity.

 

“On October [...] There will be no more serious obstacles left to Federalisation. The long dreamed of (by the Federalists that is) a United States Of Europe will inevitably become a reality.”

 

COMMENT: And Ireland reversed the decision. Which just once again shows how horribly outdated this document is. It also talks of the threat of european federalism. Two problems: AT no point he shows us WHY that is a threat, and federalism is in no way similar to fascism. SO which is it?

 

As the document is only after a few paragraphs in heavy dispute with itself, I cannot take this in any way seriously. I fear this document lacks any validity.

 

And tell me, how can you still take Farage seriously?

Edited October 28, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chippy]

The subject is whether or not the EU respects the democracy of the countries that are a part of it - you can evaluate each piece of evidence to whatever standards of validity you hold, and attack the character of people like NIgel Farage as you like (I think he's used to it by now) and it makes for an interesting read - but are you denying that the EU overturned the many examples of the democratic vote in each of the countries from the examples given?.   I just did a quick search on this, there are multiple examples that could fill an entire page of sources - but why bother; what the EU did in Greece is the perfect example.

[Ben No.3]

Greece is an example of collective failure. None of the involved parties, be it the Greek government, the people of Greece, the media in both Greece and the rest of the EU, or the EU itself were acting correctly.

[Chippy]

Thank you - it's nice to see civil discussion and the mutual acknowledgement of argument - I may be pushing my luck here, but maybe you can see how people in my position (who can reflect and evaluate on 4 generations of family being screwed over by government) arrive at the conclusion and are wary of governments who ignore the will of the people, and the democratic process by justifying themselves as "we the collective people of Europe" over "you, the individual nationalists" know what's right and best for everyone, and vote against it.

[Ben No.3]

Thank you - it's nice to see civil discussion and the mutual acknowledgement of argument - I may be pushing my luck here, but maybe you can see how people in my position (who can reflect and evaluate on 4 generations of family being screwed over by government) arrive at the conclusion and are wary of governments who ignore the will of the people, and the democratic process by justifying themselves as "we the collective people of Europe" over "you, the individual nationalists" know what's right and best for everyone, and vote against it.

Pushing your luck I'm afraid. I see the argument, but I don't see it as a very good one. The EU ultimately is good-it has assured one of the longest periods of peace in Europe. And while it definitely has its flaws, those flaws need to be corrected to create a EU that works. Te solution is fixing, not leaving. The last EU parliament election, only 30% of EU citizens voted. Now that's a horrible figure, and we need to get people to get more into politics. But the solution can't be "let's see if we like it and if not let's leave", it should be "we signed up for this, let's fix it". And before considering leaving, people should start considering voting.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chippy]

So were just going in circles then, because once again; I'm behind Nigel Farage in his criticism that I didn't vote for the EU.

 

 

 

Thank you - it's nice to see civil discussion and the mutual acknowledgement of argument - I may be pushing my luck here, but maybe you can see how people in my position (who can reflect and evaluate on 4 generations of family being screwed over by government) arrive at the conclusion and are wary of governments who ignore the will of the people, and the democratic process by justifying themselves as "we the collective people of Europe" over "you, the individual nationalists" know what's right and best for everyone, and vote against it.

Pushing your luck I'm afraid. I see the argument, but I don't see it as a very good one. The EU ultimately is good-it has assured one of the longest periods of peace in Europe. And while it definitely has its flaws, those flaws need to be corrected to create a EU that works. Te solution is fixing, not leaving. The last EU parliament election, only 30% of EU citizens voted. Now that's a horrible figure, and we need to get people to get more into politics. But the solution can't be "let's see if we like it and if not let's leave", it should be "we signed up for this, let's fix it". And before considering leaving, people should start considering voting.

 

So were going in circles then, as I'm behind Nigel Farage in that I didn't vote for unelected politicians in the EU directing how the British elected party runs the country.

 

[Ben No.3]

But the government you elected decided who it sends to Brussels. And besides, that is how alliances work: you give up some sovereignty for collective strength. you can not expect to get the benefits from being part of the EU without having the downsides.

 

And about Farage... That man was praising Brexit as if there was no tomorrow, and after it came he quit. Doesn't Taft tell you something? Maybe that he never thought it would happen and saw his place as an oppositional politician?

 

But yeah... I'm enjoying a civilised debate as well... Things got awful here before

Edited October 28, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chippy]

But who decides the specifics of sovereignty you give up across the whole of society?.  For the working class, the inheritance tax is the most crippling tax any government can impose, and every other government has said they'll remove it on election.  Anyone can see that they're either lying, or it's imposed by the EU.  So you've got an entire class of people who can only expect their living conditions to stay the same from one generation to the next (unless their kids somehow springboard over the public school education given them), and as soon as something major happens in the economy - for instance, house prices in the UK, you have a situation where children are working just as long and just as hard as their parents, but are decades behind in terms of quality of life.

 

As far as Farage goes, I honestly think he's trying to raise the image of the party from accusations of right wing racists, etc.  He said the conservatives would have ignored him anyway.  I linked to a video in my previous post that shows waht he gets wherever he goes, but it doesn't seem to be visible.

[BruceVC]

But who decides the specifics of sovereignty you give up across the whole of society?.  For the working class, the inheritance tax is the most crippling tax any government can impose, and every other government has said they'll remove it on election.  Anyone can see that they're either lying, or it's imposed by the EU.  So you've got an entire class of people who can only expect their living conditions to stay the same from one generation to the next (unless their kids somehow springboard over the public school education given them), and as soon as something major happens in the economy - for instance, house prices in the UK, you have a situation where children are working just as long and just as hard as their parents, but are decades behind in terms of quality of life.

 

As far as Farage goes, I honestly think he's trying to raise the image of the party from accusations of right wing racists, etc.  He said the conservatives would have ignored him anyway.  I linked to a video in my previous post that shows waht he gets wherever he goes, but it doesn't seem to be visible.

My primary issue with Farage is he feels the need to publicly insult the EU parliament, why not just keep the peace?

 

Also how instrumental was he in influencing the UK to leave? My understanding is Brexit was something many people in the Conservative party, like Boris, wanted?

[Volourn]

The EU pariliament deserves to be insulted - publicly and otherwise. They are Nazis who bully, attack, murder, rape, steal, brainwash, and every other  truthful horrible thing that can be said. EVIL. EVIL TO THE CORE.

[BruceVC]

The EU pariliament deserves to be insulted - publicly and otherwise. They are Nazis who bully, attack, murder, rape, steal, brainwash, and every other  truthful horrible thing that can be said. EVIL. EVIL TO THE CORE.

I reject this post completely, the EU has to enforce certain rules and laws in order for the union to function

 

This is to be expected and is necessary. What is a example of this severe EU bullying:?

[Volourn]

l0l

[BruceVC]

l0l

Exactly my point, you cant think of a valid reason  

[Ben No.3]

I'm hoping volourns comment was satire? Sounds like it...

If not... Here we go again. Round 2638 (DING DING)

Edited October 29, 2016 by Ben No.3

[BruceVC]

I'm hoping volourns comment was satire? Sounds like it...

If not... Here we go again. Round 2638 (DING DING)

volo will give you some weak and irrelevant reason, if he bothers to answer, about why he think " the EU are Nazis " 

 

I'm sure you must have realised by now volo is one of the members on this forum who most of the time you cant expect to have a serious debate with. My advice is dont create an expectation around volo, if you assume he will debate normally you will often get disappointed

[Namutree]

I'm hoping volourns comment was satire? Sounds like it...

If not... Here we go again. Round 2638 (DING DING)

Meet Volourn. Things to know:

 

1: The EU are nazi SJW's.

2: The USA are nazi SJWs.

3: Canada is the land of nazi SJW's.

4: Volourn's parents were killed by nazi SJW's; which is ironic considering they were nazi SJW's too.

5: You are a nazi SJW.

[BruceVC]

 

I'm hoping volourns comment was satire? Sounds like it...

If not... Here we go again. Round 2638 (DING DING)

Meet Volourn. Things to know:

 

1: The EU are nazi SJW's.

2: The USA are nazi SJWs.

3: Canada is the land of nazi SJW's.

4: Volourn's parents were killed by nazi SJW's; which is ironic considering they were nazi SJW's too.

5: You are a nazi SJW.

 

 

1. SJW  are SJW Nazis
2. Feminists are SJW Nazis
3. Any world leader who cares about equality and tolerance is a SJW Nazis 

[Ben No.3]

I see... Well... Everyone can only do what he is able to, especially when it comes to problems that might require a more complex approach (one that might require thinking)... Such as the difference between political left and right (SJW nazis... Made my day ) or the history of Canada

Edited October 29, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

Also chippy... You are right, taxes heavily affect the working class. That is why it is important to have a sort of scaling... The more income you have, the higher the percentage of it you need to pay as tax. Sounds reasonable enough, doesn't it? Then, you also need to think about the fact that the taxes (or the way they are spent) cReate thousands of jobs.

And as I said, the countries participating in any sort of alliance or federation will give up some sovereignty. It's how it works. On the other hand, there is a lot to gain.

[Namutree]

The more income you have, the higher the percentage of it you need to pay as tax. 

And the wealthy decide that's bull**** when the taxes are due (regardless of the BS they spew in public to virtue signal). Then they go to their politician friends to come up with work-arounds.

 

Then other politicians spend time trying to fight the work-arounds until the wealthy threaten to abandon said economy (behind closed doors). Then the work-arounds are accepted politically, but not publicly so.

 

Over time more and more work-around's get made to placate the wealthy while the tax system gets more and more complex. Eventually things get so complex that tax collecting gets too troublesome for the government to handle. This forces the state to increase the size of tax related bureaucracy at ever increasing costs. 

 

The system becomes a corrupt cluster-f*ck which costs so much money to actually deal with on an annual basis that you would have had far more revenue just accepting that people shouldn't be punished for being successful.

 

Your tax system ends up punishing those fighting to get out of poverty, but does nothing to curtail the wealthy and established; ultimately it actually increases their advantage.

 

Keep taxes simple, enforceable, and fair for all parties involved. You'll deal with less public dishonesty (from elites and politicians), less government waste, less tax evasion, and less of a hassle for tax payers.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Namutree

[Ben No.3]

Let me give you an practical example of what I mean: Germany's taxes:

Annual income up to 8000€=no taxes

Annual income of 8000€-13500€=14%-24%

Annual income of 13500€-53000€=24%-42%

Annual income of 53000€-251000€=42%

Annual income of more than 251000€=45%

 

For the to x%-y% brackets the taxes rise proportionally to income ( so for example at an annual income of 40000€ taxes are around 35%). By the way, in 2015 Germany's BIP per capita was around 45000€ (a bit more actually). About tax evasion... 2012 there were for example around 16.000 (a bit less actually) cases of tax evasion brought to court.

 

I'd say it is a very good system. Taxes are high, but they are well spend (for example excellent state schools... Now that's really important!!)

 

Source: http://www.erfolg-als-freiberufler.de/steuertabelle-steuersatz.php

(Won't be useful as its German, but at least you will see I didn't just make these numbers up... have a look at the graph)

https://de.statista.com/infografik/1061/steuerpruefung-und-steuerhinterziehung-in-deutschland/

(same thing, for tax evasion)

Edited October 30, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

 

http://de.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

(Same thing, for BIP per capita)

Edited October 30, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Azdeus]

About tax evasion... 2012 there were for example around 16.000 (a bit less actually) cases of tax evasion brought to court.

 

In all likelyhood, those were small company owners or semi-rich people.

 

It was the case here in Sweden, but probably it's the same in DE, that despite there being a lot of people taxevading, the extent was just recently brought to light with for instance the Panama documents. There were alot of Swedish tax-money missing, and the documents showed alot of people that were evading taxes in different ways, including criminals and known drugdealers, but despite this exactly 0 people have been brought charges with thus so far. And banks here willingly help people evade. Some of the rich people have a direct line to the chiefs of tax offices here.

 

The rich get richer and the poor can get stuffed I suppose.

[Gfted1]

Holy moley, I would need a second job just to pay my taxes in Germany.