Jump to content

One definite flaw


Recommended Posts

...is that Pillars definitely lacks the "ooomph / badass / epic" factor. And this is what people usually complain about. Items aren't epic as they were in BG / ID / NWN / DA:O / even TES. Story is more of a personal chase in lieu of Jason Bourne than it is...epic as NWN / BG etc are. Abilities(most of spells especially don't feel powerful and you don't feel progression-mostly because most of power is located within the first few spell levels meh) don't have oomph nor progression. Let me give you an example of Enchantment progression in NWN*:

 

0. Daze

1. Charm / Sleep

2. Blind / Deaf

3. Hold

4. Confuse

5. Dominate Person

6. Mass Charm

7. Mass Blind / Deaf

8. Mass Hold

9. Dominate Monster / Mass Dominate Person

 

...so you begin as a simple Conjurer of parlour tricks(Daze, Charm etc) and end up Dominating the minds of Dragons, stopping whole armies in their tracks etc etc. See, THAT is progression how it should be made. There isn't anything similar in Pillars.

 

And while I do love Pillars(just bought WM exp.pass), this is a real problem: it really, but really is not epic enough.

 

*that list isn't actually from NWN, but is how the Enchantment School itself progresses. My apologies for misleading you.

 

edit: I should've used Summon Creature I - IX instead. It'd've described what I was after much, much more elegantly. In hindsight...

Edited by hrwd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well no, that's progression how it should be made *according to you*. As far as I'm concerned, 'epic' generally just equates to 'unrealistically overpowered' (usually within an even more unrealistic time span as well) and 'poorly balanced' (more often than not, anyway). It rarely leads to particularly compelling storytelling either (more saving the world from some cackling evil and being the focal point destiny *yay*). It doesn't do much for the gameplay either. If the character becomes much more powerful, the enemies are just scaled up right along with them to maintain the challenge. The Fantasy genre tends to fall into the trap of aiming for too much of the 'epic', it tends not to work very well. The Superhero genre tends to have the same problem actually (that Mary Sue incarnate Superman being its spokesman). 

 

Thankfully, the PoE devs apparently agreed with that view. Let's hope they stick to that for PoE 2. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well no, that's progression how it should be made *according to you*. As far as I'm concerned, 'epic' generally just equates to 'unrealistically overpowered' (usually within an even more unrealistic time span as well) and 'poorly balanced' (more often than not, anyway). It rarely leads to particularly compelling storytelling either (more saving the world from some cackling evil and being the focal point destiny *yay*). It doesn't do much for the gameplay either. If the character becomes much more powerful, the enemies are just scaled up right along with them to maintain the challenge. The Fantasy genre tends to fall into the trap of aiming for too much of the 'epic', it tends not to work very well. The Superhero genre tends to have the same problem actually (that Mary Sue incarnate Superman being its spokesman). 

 

Thankfully, the PoE devs apparently agreed with that view. Let's hope they stick to that for PoE 2. 

 

I don't care whether someone's a Mary Sue as long as it has an explanation within that world's lore. But when it gets crazy like "Infinite Worlds" etc in DC...that's where I draw the line. I dubbed this notorious achievement "Luke Skywalker vs badass EVUL Black Hole".

 

Different people, different tastes. I definitely want more epicness. Not too much, mind you, or it crosses in "huge armies clashing all the time"(actually this isn't so because most of stories within Fantasy are centralised around 2-4 focal points, but...meh. This is a general layman view on it for sure) aka Warhammer.

 

And...discovering what it means to be someone? **** THAT! I just want to save worlds, tyvm!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man read the description on the Wizard spells...

 

Tier 1:  Chill fog = AoE Blind, Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights = Foe AoE dazed, Slicken = AoE Prone

Tier 2: Bewildering Spectacle = Foe AoE Confused, Binding Web = AoE stuck, Curse of Blackened Sight = Foe AoE blind, Fetid Caress = Foe Paralyze

Tier 4: Confusion = Bigger Foe AoE Confused, Ninagauth's Shadowflame = AoE paralyzing fireball, Tentacles = summon that cause stuck with attacks

Tier 5 Call to slumber = Bigger Foe AoE prone, Form of the Helpless Beast = Foe polymorph

Tier 6: Arkemyr's Capricious Hex = Huge Foe AoE Paralyze, dazed, or sickened, Gaze of the Adragan = Foe AoE Petrify (an extremely powerful debuff) 

Tier 7: Concelhaut's Crushing Doom = Very powerful single target prone, Tayn's Chaotic Orb = Chain lightning that causes Petrified, Paralyzed, Stunned, or blinded

Tier 8: Wall Of Many Colors = Wall spell that does a lot of damage plus causes petrified, dominated, and paralyzed afflictions.

 

In other words, they're all there and they get more powerful as the game progresses.  All I'm seeing from your post is a lack of PoE knowledge TBH.  Item progression is awesome as well, with many interesting items that don't automatically make your character an OP killing machines, but have many different synergistic mods that you can build characters around.  

 

In case you were wondering, item progression and spell/ability progression both improve with the white march expansions.  Really I can only agree with your point on the main story.  But even that becomes more than just a personal vendetta...  when you consider what Thaos is, what he's done, and what he's created.  Whatever your reason for stopping him was at the start, it will have huge impacts on the world's setting.

Edited by Climhazzard
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man read the description on the Wizard spells...

 

Tier 1:  Chill fog = AoE Blind, Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights = Foe AoE dazed, Slicken = AoE Prone

Tier 2: Bewildering Spectacle = Foe AoE Confused, Binding Web = AoE stuck, Curse of Blackened Sight = Foe AoE blind, Fetid Caress = Foe Paralyze

Tier 4: Confusion = Bigger Foe AoE Confused, Ninagauth's Shadowflame = AoE paralyzing fireball, Tentacles = summon that cause stuck with attacks

Tier 5 Call to slumber = Bigger Foe AoE prone, Form of the Helpless Beast = Foe polymorph

Tier 6: Arkemyr's Capricious Hex = Huge Foe AoE Paralyze, dazed, or sickened, Gaze of the Adragan = Foe AoE Petrify (an extremely powerful debuff) 

Tier 7: Concelhaut's Crushing Doom = Very powerful single target prone, Tayn's Chaotic Orb = Chain lightning that causes Petrified, Paralyzed, Stunned, or blinded

Tier 8: Wall Of Many Colors = Wall spell that does a lot of damage plus causes petrified, dominated, and paralyzed afflictions.

 

In other words, they're all there and they get more powerful as the game progresses.  All I'm seeing from your post is a lack of PoE knowledge TBH.  Item progression is awesome as well, with many interesting items that don't automatically make your character an OP killing machines, but have many different synergistic mods that you can build characters around.  

 

In case you were wondering, item progression and spell/ability progression both improve with the white march expansions.  Really I can only agree with your point on the main story.  But even that becomes more than just a personal vendetta...  when you consider what Thaos is, what he's done, and what he's created.  Whatever your reason for stopping him was at the start, it will have huge impacts on the world's setting.

 

No, I haven't played WM. I'll admit that much. But when a base game beats another game + its expansion in one aspect...it beat it.

 

But I am not the only one who complained about this. A lot of people say how underwhelming Pillars are. I am fortunate that I a) was not given a refund I requested by Steam(thank GabeN for that!) and b) had enough perseverance to pull through for it was worth it. But the /meh factor put a lot of people off the Pillars table and now they doubt Tyranny because of it too(and a lot of those people, presumably, like the IE games, so...). I don't doubt it because I know that Obsidian never really accentuated their gameplay side for it sucked most of the time. Thus they accentuated their really powerful side, the writing and immersion. And they are really, really better off because of it.

 

You've got to be aware of limitations of things.

Edited by hrwd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everything's in the eye of the beholder.

Personally, I felt PoE tended to be at its best when it was telling personal little intimate stories.  A single person who gave his life fighting people more powerful than him, to protect someone he didn't even have to protect.  Another, unable to accept that their dead mate is gone.  Poignant little tales, where what you do has some bearing on the outcome for that character.

​Not that I object to the occasional "clash of massive armies", mind you.  That can be fun too.  But sometimes the emotional impact is lost, when things strive for "epicness".  A mixture is good.

​Late game spells become quite powerful, while also not negating the usefulness of earlier level spells, which is nice.  A high level wizard or druid can **** **** up.​

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I haven't played WM. I'll admit that much. But when a base game beats another game + its expansion in one aspect...it beat it.

 

But I am not the only one who complained about this. A lot of people say how underwhelming Pillars are. I am fortunate that I a) was not given a refund I requested by Steam(thank GabeN for that!) and b) had enough perseverance to pull through for it was worth it. But the /meh factor put a lot of people off the Pillars table and now they doubt Tyranny because of it too(and a lot of those people, presumably, like the IE games, so...). I don't doubt it because I know that Obsidian never really accentuated their gameplay side for it sucked most of the time. Thus they accentuated their really powerful side, the writing and immersion. And they are really, really better off because of it.

 

You've got to be aware of limitations of things.

 

 

Except that it isn't a limitation in some objective sense. You perceive it as such, others don't. Just like apparently there are people that for some inconceivable reason actually like Superman and Superman-related things, whereas I would be less bored watching paint dry. 

 

And sure, there will be other people who share your view, to the extent that they regretted buying the game and are less likely to play games from the sam developers? How many there are, who knows? Your claims about "a lot" notwithstanding, there's no reliable data on that (not that I'm aware of anyway, and given the effort required to obtain it I doubt it exists at all). In any case, it seems unlikely that many people are significantly swayed in either direction by one single facet. What makes people enjoy a game generally depends on a range of factors; if the 'level of epicness' factors into it at all, it's still just one element of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something else that is worth considering is that events on a smaller scale are more relatable. It's easy to empathise with individuals and to understand the contexts of their actions, and to appreciate how events impact upon them. When you magnify events onto an 'epic' scale that relateable personal aspect tends to be lost simply because there are too many people involved or the events involved are too far removed from real life (and therefore our own lived experience) for us to have a solid frame of reference from which to empathise. I think this is the reason that Pillars' writing and focus on individuals, couples and families' tragedies and triumphs is so effective.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pillars was designed to not be "epic". This was one of the requested things when Justin Bell composed the music. It's a universe that has a more human being dimension, not a godly/héroic one. It's more intimate, imho, because the whole watcher thing is about something threatening, scary, for the MC. I still think that Pillars 1 is more "epic" that BG1. Actually, i would say that i feel there are too many dragons in the game. This make dragons a bit too casual opponents at times.

 

I think that if there is to be some epicness in the watcher's saga this must come later, step by step. When Obs started developing Pillars, i read somewhere that they thought of creating a real saga, if everything went well. I still hope the 2nd game will be a sequel to the first, with the same MC. And if that's the case, there is plenty of time to raise the stakes all along the whole story. I quite like this more mortal focused scale in Pillars 1. This helps as... well... to me this helps to "feel" my character. And the sequel could bring the stakes to another level. I know that Obs can do it right.

Edited by Abel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...is that Pillars definitely lacks the "ooomph / badass / epic" factor. And this is what people usually complain about. Items aren't epic as they were in BG / ID / NWN / DA:O / even TES. Story is more of a personal chase in lieu of Jason Bourne than it is...epic as NWN / BG etc are. Abilities(most of spells especially don't feel powerful and you don't feel progression-mostly because most of power is located within the first few spell levels meh) don't have oomph nor progression. Let me give you an example of Enchantment progression in NWN*:

 

0. Daze

1. Charm / Sleep

2. Blind / Deaf

3. Hold

4. Confuse

5. Dominate Person

6. Mass Charm

7. Mass Blind / Deaf

8. Mass Hold

9. Dominate Monster / Mass Dominate Person

 

...so you begin as a simple Conjurer of parlour tricks(Daze, Charm etc) and end up Dominating the minds of Dragons, stopping whole armies in their tracks etc etc. See, THAT is progression how it should be made. There isn't anything similar in Pillars.

 

And while I do love Pillars(just bought WM exp.pass), this is a real problem: it really, but really is not epic enough.

 

*that list isn't actually from NWN, but is how the Enchantment School itself progresses. My apologies for misleading you.

 

edit: I should've used Summon Creature I - IX instead. It'd've described what I was after much, much more elegantly. In hindsight...

 

Tactically that enchantment progression is way off.  Think about what you would least like to happen to you in a fight.  It should look more like.

  1. Daze - Whatever, this can mean anything.
  2. Deaf - You can fight without hearing, but not as well.
  3. Temporarily obstructed vision - Someone throws sand at your face.  Sucks, but you can live through it.
  4. Confuse - Things get weird but it's hardly a death sentence.
  5. Mass Deaf - Suddenly you can't communicate with your teammates; CRPGs just don't do this spell well.
  6. Charm - This is bad.  You're temporarily turned against your friends,
  7. Blind - Oh ****!  Unless you're a super samurai, you're in a ton of trouble.
  8. Mass Blind - Double ****!  Say goodbye to team tactics, aiming ranged weapons or spells that require aim.
  9. Sleep / Hold - You're ****ed.  You're literally helpless while the enemy runs along and stabs you.
  10. Dominate Anything - Worse than dying because you kill your friends.
  11. Mass Sleep / Hold - All your friends and you are ****ed.
  12. Mass Dominate - You and your friends are turned against what you love.  If only successful on half, they cheerful help your enemies slaughter your friends, and then are killed themselves when the spell breaks.

Pillars follows a logical progression far closer than previous tabletop conversion games.  But more importantly, it has all those things you listed.

Pillars has you fight a whole army, and I end up dominating Dragons most of the time I fight them.  

 

Summoning is a better example, but in that case the order is just a little misplaced.  Keep in mind that a max druid is summoning a stag made out of fire; conceptually that's at about the right power level.  A max chanter is summoning what, swamp spores?  That's very powerful mechanically, but not terribly impressive.  Based on the the impressiveness of the myths I would say summons should go:

Druid: Slimes, Wolves, Giant Spiders (summon spider was a neat spell and should be replicated), Tigers, Elementals, Dryads, Greater Elementals, Primal Beasts.

Chanter: Wyrms (Xaurips would really be better), Skeletons, Will o' Wisp, Shades, Ogres, Drake, (Vithrack would make a cool appearance), Dragon

 

Except for dragon, the vast majority of those summons are already in.  They just need to be put in order.

Edited by anameforobsidian
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well no, that's progression how it should be made *according to you*. As far as I'm concerned, 'epic' generally just equates to 'unrealistically overpowered'

 

In case the irony was lost in the discussion, let me remind you here that this game revolves around a small group of priests blowing up a god with a nuclear weapon.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sick of saving the world all the time, and I'm very happy that POE isn't overdosed on 'epic'. (In fact, you are a special snowflake with special watcher powers unmasking and ending a centuries-long conspiracy and finding the hidden truth about the gods of the world... so the fact that this isn't very 'epic' says something about how hyperbolic the genre is.)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Well no, that's progression how it should be made *according to you*. As far as I'm concerned, 'epic' generally just equates to 'unrealistically overpowered'

In case the irony was lost in the discussion, let me remind you here that this game revolves around a small group of priests blowing up a god with a nuclear weapon.

 

 

Firstly, nuclear weapons are vastly more powerful than the Godhammer was; they'd be missing a bit more than a bridge if it had been. Secondly, Waidwen's exact status wasn't quite so clear-cut as that. 

 

But more to the point, I wouldn't call what they did 'unrealistically overpowered'. They did research, gathered materials, constructed their bomb, laid their trap and succeeded. This was a concerted and time-consuming effort by a larger group of skilled individuals, aided by Magran. There is a gulf of difference with the 'epic' described above, of an individual mage effortlessly defeating dragons and laying waste to whole armies with the flick of a wand (usually also a mage who a surprisingly short time before that was still a laughably weak level 1 mageling). 

Edited by Loren Tyr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And at the same time those armies and dragons can be singlehandedly defeated by some monk that wanted to become a farmer couple months ago.

 

Admit it, only casters somehow mess with your suspention of disbeleif.

 

And when, exactly, have I claimed to have no problem with non-casters being overpowered? I like balance and (relative) believability indiscriminately. The casting classes in general, and mages in particular, do tend to be the worst offenders in this regard however.  

 

But by all means, blather away. Don't let facts get in the way of your baseless assumptions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...is that Pillars definitely lacks the "ooomph / badass / epic" factor. And this is what people usually complain about. Items aren't epic as they were in BG / ID / NWN / DA:O / even TES. Story is more of a personal chase in lieu of Jason Bourne than it is...epic as NWN / BG etc are. Abilities(most of spells especially don't feel powerful and you don't feel progression-mostly because most of power is located within the first few spell levels meh) don't have oomph nor progression. Let me give you an example of Enchantment progression in NWN*:

 

For what it's worth, I think the OP's point has some merit. Of course it's subjective and others prefer the less-epic world of Eora and PoE, but I have to be honest and say that I felt the loot to be a bit underwhelming and "samey-samey". Some of that can perhaps be applied to spells too, though I didn't really miss the "epicness" in that part of the game.

 

The world itself I liked, and look forward to how we can explore it further in PoE2, probably in a different region. But after killing so many nasty things in PoE, I did miss some more "oomph" from the weapons and other loot we came across. It may not be a universal complaint, but I've seen it often enough for it to hopefully register at Obsidian HQ.

 

(It should be mentioned, however, that I haven't bought WM yet, so whatever the developers introduced there, I haven't seen yet.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

...is that Pillars definitely lacks the "ooomph / badass / epic" factor. And this is what people usually complain about. Items aren't epic as they were in BG / ID / NWN / DA:O / even TES. Story is more of a personal chase in lieu of Jason Bourne than it is...epic as NWN / BG etc are. Abilities(most of spells especially don't feel powerful and you don't feel progression-mostly because most of power is located within the first few spell levels meh) don't have oomph nor progression. Let me give you an example of Enchantment progression in NWN*:

 

For what it's worth, I think the OP's point has some merit. Of course it's subjective and others prefer the less-epic world of Eora and PoE, but I have to be honest and say that I felt the loot to be a bit underwhelming and "samey-samey". Some of that can perhaps be applied to spells too, though I didn't really miss the "epicness" in that part of the game.

 

The world itself I liked, and look forward to how we can explore it further in PoE2, probably in a different region. But after killing so many nasty things in PoE, I did miss some more "oomph" from the weapons and other loot we came across. It may not be a universal complaint, but I've seen it often enough for it to hopefully register at Obsidian HQ.

 

(It should be mentioned, however, that I haven't bought WM yet, so whatever the developers introduced there, I haven't seen yet.)

 

 

WM introduces some really powerful stuff. To me, it's even a bit too overpowered at times. But, for some reason that i can't clearly identify, even though these items are really powerful, i don't feel they are epic. Don't know, maybe it's all about the way you get them? Having Saint Ydwen's Redeemer as loot on a mercenary is not exactly the same thing as having the holy sword as loot after killing Firkraag, and the same can be said with the ring dropped by Kangaax, or the staff dropped by the wizard in the lich area in Atkathla.

 

I'm a bit disappointed, too, that PoE lacks a cliché i love: the fact that you can make yourself an armor with dragon's scales. When killing dragons, you get meat... sigh.

Edited by Abel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can, actually, make yourself an armor with dragon's scales. It just happens that in PoE this is translated in terms of the Superb and Legendary enchantment. This robs it of the feeling of uniqueness.

 

I wish in PoE2 we will be able to 'Dragonize' (by analogy with durganize) armor with some truly unique enchantment, with diferrent dragons types providing diferrent enchantments (white dragon scales, adra dragon scales, and only 1 per dragon).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...