US Election 2016, part II

[Gromnir]

“These fatal shootings are not isolated incidents”

 

"Symptomatic of the broader challenges within our criminal justice system"

 

obama was "deeply disturbed" by video of the shooting in baton rouge" 

 

etc.

 

these is just recent.  were worse after ferguson in part 'cause o' early failure to say nothing 'til tensions had boiled over.  w/o knowing any actual facts, and seeming embracing the limited narrative presented in the media, obama is taking what is, 'til we know more, two isolated incidents that may actual turn out to be justified (or not) and turning 'em into an opportunity to advance a particular agenda.

 

the guy in minnesota had a gun on his lap and were pulled over 'cause the cop in question were concerned that the driver might be a suspect identified in a BOLO?  well, that woulda' been information we woulda' liked to have known before concluding that the shooting were symptomatic o' bigger racial issues, eh?  

 

obama has not been helping.  fail from failure to respond as in ferguson when it took riots to get a comment from him, and now we got him arguably rushing to judgement?  again, am not certain what would be the perfect thing to say as we suspect that advising restraint would only further enrage some segments o' society, but obama has not been helping with his commentary.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

“These fatal shootings are not isolated incidents”

 

"Symptomatic of the broader challenges within our criminal justice system"

 

obama was "deeply disturbed" by video of the shooting in baton rouge" 

 

etc.

 

these is just recent.  were worse after ferguson in part 'cause o' early failure to say nothing 'til tensions had boiled over.  w/o knowing any actual facts, and seeming embracing the limited narrative presented in the media, obama is taking what is, 'til we know more, two isolated incidents that may actual turn out to be justified (or not) and turning 'em into an opportunity to advance a particular agenda.

 

the guy in minnesota had a gun on his lap and were pulled over 'cause the cop in question were concerned that the driver might be a suspect identified in a BOLO?  well, that woulda' been information we woulda' liked to have known before concluding that the shooting were symptomatic o' bigger racial issues, eh?  

 

obama has not been helping.  fail from failure to respond as in ferguson when it took riots to get a comment from him, and now we got him arguably rushing to judgement?  again, am not certain what would be the perfect thing to say as we suspect that advising restraint would only further enrage some segments o' society, but obama has not been helping with his commentary.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Interesting post , I have a question is Obama not suppose to show any  sympathy towards certain police killings? Is he not suppose to get involved on a personal level especially considering the fact most of us acknowledge there are some real inconsistencies about how some African  Americans are treated in US society?

 

Also he condemned the Police killings at Dallas 

[Gromnir]

 

(am not gonna aid bruce in promulgating another monstrous reply/quote mess) 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Interesting post , I have a question is Obama not suppose to show any  sympathy towards certain police killings? Is he not suppose to get involved on a personal level especially considering the fact most of us acknowledge there are some real inconsistencies about how some African  Americans are treated in US society?

 

Also he condemned the Police killings at Dallas 

 

 

...

 

am not seeing a point.  if obama had stayed complete silent on the dallas shootings, particular after seeming to rush to judgement on the earlier shootings in louisiana and minnesota, there woulda' been a p00p storm o' epic proportions.  no gold star for obama for the no-brainer.

 

and don't fail for false dichotomy.  is not condemn shootings as part o' a symptomatic problem OR ____________.  obama can sympathize and advocate restrain while _________.  again, fill in the blanks with any number o' responses.  is no dichotomy as bruce seems to wanna present.

 

we expect sympathy, but we also expect obama to be Presidential. failure to say anything that mighta' helped prevent ferguson riots were disappointing.  drawing conclusions 'bout larger problems related to police practices based on no more than a grainy video o' an armed man being wrestled to the ground and then shot AND video taken AFTER the shooting o' a person pulled over 'cause o' response to a BOLO?  sorry, but the commentary at this point is irresponsible.  w/o knowing more, to conclude that the recent shootings is symptomatic o' bigger problems for police is just... wrong.

 

be sympathetic.  be concerned. but be freaking Presidential.  for chrissakes, one reason we dislike trump is 'cause he shoots his mouth off when speaking from a point o' ignorance. obama did the exact same thing you has criticized in trump, yes?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 10, 2016 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

 

 

(am not gonna aid bruce in promulgating another monstrous reply/quote mess) 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Interesting post , I have a question is Obama not suppose to show any  sympathy towards certain police killings? Is he not suppose to get involved on a personal level especially considering the fact most of us acknowledge there are some real inconsistencies about how some African  Americans are treated in US society?

 

Also he condemned the Police killings at Dallas 

 

 

...

 

am not seeing a point.  if obama had stayed complete silent on the dallas shootings, particular after seeming to rush to judgement on the earlier shootings in louisiana and minnesota, there woulda' been a p00p storm o' epic proportions.  no gold star for obama for the no-brainer.

 

and don't fail for false dichotomy.  is not condemn shootings as part o' a symptomatic problem OR ____________.  obama can sympathize and advocate restrain while _________.  again, fill in the blanks with any number o' responses.  is no dichotomy as bruce seems to wanna present.

 

we expect sympathy, but we also expect obama to be Presidential. failure to say anything that mighta' helped prevent ferguson riots were disappointing.  drawing conclusions 'bout larger problems related to police practices based on no more than a grainy video o' an armed man being wrestled to the ground and then shot AND video taken AFTER the shooting o' a person pulled over 'cause o' response to a BOLO?  sorry, but the commentary at this point is irresponsible.  w/o knowing more, to conclude that the recent shootings is symptomatic o' bigger problems for police is just... wrong.

 

be sympathetic.  be concerned. but be freaking Presidential.  for chrissakes, one reason we dislike trump is 'cause he shoots his mouth off when speaking from a point o' ignorance. obama did the exact same thing you has criticized in trump, yes?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Maybe we arent on the same page, we all know there are issues within some sectors of the US police force. You know this, Obama knows this, I know this. 

 

Many African Americans from the Trayvon Martin story felt very agitated about how they perceive they were being treated by the Police, so I doubt Obama would have prevented the Ferguson riots or any other for that matter by his words. 

 

So for me people have this expectation for how they expect Obama to behave but all he did was recognize an issue that exits in the US society and then say " changes need to be made " ...he didn't vilify or demon the entire Police force in the USA? And I'm sure his overall view on how some African Americans are treated would be based on his own life story and not just some video

 

Unless what he said wasn't true which is a different story 

[Wrath of Dagon]

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/08/politics/sarah-palin-black-lives-matter/index.html

 

The irritating and hypocritical words of Sarah Palin, she has the audacity to say 

"Shame on our culture's influencers who would stir contention and division that could lead to evil such as that in Dallas."

 

 Thats rich coming from an avid supporter of Trumps numerous comments that were very  racially divisive and intentionally stirred contention

 

Trump never called for anyone to be killed, and his comments are misunderstood as racist. He's actually speaking about real threats and not about race. As for Obola, every time there's a controversial police shooting, which will happen inevitably, he pushes the narrative that racist white cops are out to kill blacks, even before the full facts are known. Edited July 10, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gromnir]

 

 

*sigh*

 

whether you believe there is larger problems in the US system o' justice (and trayvon martin is a horrible example for reasons we mentioned elsewhere on these boards... bad bruce,)  the shootings in MN and LA do not necessarily represent such problems. to use the incidents in louisiana and minnesota to advance possible unrelated agenda issues is irresponsible at best. 

 

be Presidential. 

 

am agreeing that there is a problem in the US given the current relationship 'tween law enforcement and citizens... particularly young, black and male citizens.  you think obama's recent comments did anything to reduce the tension? regardless, at this point in time, to claim that the videos from louisiana and minnesota were anything other than isolated incidents, and to claim that they is symptomatic o' larger problems facing the justice system is wrong.  advance dialogue by advancing the possibly false perception that the recent shootings in louisiana and minnesota were symptomatic?  is not necessarily a lie, but is pretty darn close... and is irresponsible given the current racial tensions. 

 

we do, as a nation, need more dialogue on the issues o' how police interact with citizens.  as leferd mentions elsewhere, the fed is actual taking steps to deal with those issues.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/88037-dallas-sniper-shootings/?p=1826545

 

so why didn't obama do as did leferd?  acknowledge that there is a deep perception problem and explain that the Federal government is committed to dealing with the problem through education programs that is already in place.  counsel restraint.  advise 'gainst premature rushes to judgement.  be a President.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

Trump never called for anyone to be killed, and his comments are misunderstood as racist. He's actually speaking about real threats and not about race. As for Obola, every time there's a controversial police shooting, which will happen inevitably, he pushes the narrative that racist white cops are out to kill blacks, even before the full facts are known.

 

WOD I dont think Trump  is racist or even anti-Latino. He is just very driven in his objectives and doesnt care who gets impacted when he follows a certain  strategy

 

He decided on a certain strategy to win the Republican nomination, he completely out manouved the Republican established and won but at what cost. Seriously you cannot ignore the following

 

1. Latinos have been unfairly targeted, a strange risk to take just to pander to some of his supporters 
2. He decided in the beginning of his campaign that PC was wrong and he would never apologize. This whole " I dont apologize " view is actually a much bigger issue than you may realize
3. He then made the egregious mistake of offending the majority of women in the US in various ways, that Megan Kelly interview summarizes this
4. He intentionally brought a level of belligerence and personal attacks on his fellow Republicans and degraded the Republican nomination

 

He did encourage racial divides in the USA because he  came across as arrogant and dismissive of anyone who differed with him and seemed to suggest " white supremacy " to me?

[HoonDing]

Presidential elections will be postponed for lack of better candidates.

Obama for life.

[BruceVC]

 

 

*sigh*

 

whether you believe there is larger problems in the US system o' justice (and trayvon martin is a horrible example for reasons we mentioned elsewhere on these boards... bad bruce,)  the shootings in MN and LA do not necessarily represent such problems. to use the incidents in louisiana and minnesota to advance possible unrelated agenda issues is irresponsible at best. 

 

be Presidential. 

 

am agreeing that there is a problem in the US given the current relationship 'tween law enforcement and citizens... particularly young, black and male citizens.  you think obama's recent comments did anything to reduce the tension? regardless, at this point in time, to claim that the videos from louisiana and minnesota were anything other than isolated incidents, and to claim that they is symptomatic o' larger problems facing the justice system is wrong.  advance dialogue by advancing the possibly false perception that the recent shootings in louisiana and minnesota were symptomatic?  is not necessarily a lie, but is pretty darn close... and is irresponsible given the current racial tensions. 

 

we do, as a nation, need more dialogue on the issues o' how police interact with citizens.  as leferd mentions elsewhere, the fed is actual taking steps to deal with those issues.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/88037-dallas-sniper-shootings/?p=1826545

 

so why didn't obama do as did leferd?  acknowledge that there is a deep perception problem and explain that the Federal government is committed to dealing with the problem through education programs that is already in place.  counsel restraint.  advise 'gainst premature rushes to judgement.  be a President.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You dont like Obama much? Thats fine I know we can still have an objective debate on him

 

What possible  agenda do you think he is pushing? Maybe I need to understand how you view Obama to see where you coming from on 

 

Whats interesting about Obama is this whole " he polarized the USA " is a minor thing compared to how we differ on his foreign policy decisions but only time we prove who is right about that 

[Gromnir]

as an aside, am all in favor o' individual citizens speaking their mind on the current issues.  many folks is gonna be wingnuts and/or idiots.  many folks is gonna be bigoted and irresponsible. many folks is gonna have preconceptions that defy any attempt to advance any kinda dialectic. good. let the marketplace o' ideas work as it is 'posed to.  let folks share beliefs and concerns.  encourage folks to share beliefs and concerns.

 

"to courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. if there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."

 

is a freedom we have here that bruce does not.  is a belief we share that seems to baffle bruce.  we can have white supremacists and members o' the black panthers arguing 'bout issues w/o any chance o' criminalization based on ideas being shared.

 

President is different.  the President shouldn't simple shoot his mouth off and raise concerns as does the ordinary citizen. racial tensions IS high.  can be concerned and advise restraint w/o premature characterization o' events, no? 

 

oh, and don't reduce to "you don't like obama much."  is petty.  we like obama just fine when it comes to any number o' issues, but we also don't ignore his failures.  ferguson silence were fail.  call the events in minnesota and louisiana symptomatic and deeply concerning were wrong. 

 

as for the agenda issue...

 

are you channeling vol?

 

what are we talking 'bout at the moment?  is a fear in the US that cops indulge in excessive uses o' force, particularly with young, black men.  it is an issue.  the problem needs discussion. obama has been accused o' complacency regarding the issue.  the recent videos gave him an opportunity to address the issue. sadly, he jumped the gun... no pun intended. his comments has a tendency to polarize rather than unify AND he might be complete wrong that the incidents is anything other than isolated and devoid o' any meaningful racial element.

 

am not gonna get into you with it on foreign policy. 

 

 

again, if the accusation is that trump adds to the chaos, then how is obama comments any different. w/o any genuine idea o' what took place in minnesota and louisiana, he helped advance a narrative that may very well turn out to be wrong.  worse, we see no way to view his comments as having done anything other than polarize opinion.  those who look at the videos and see police brutality is gonna cheer on obama for speaking truth.  other folks who can't ever see police negligence were equal angered by obama comments.  and then there is folks such as Gromnir... folks who would ordinarily refuse to pick any kind o' side in the debate 'til we get more info.  folks such as Gromnir listen to obama comments and has a tendency to be pushed to one extreme or the other.  see obama as voicing a legit concern that need be raised regardless o' the timeliness, or folks who wonder at how a President could be so irresponsible as to suggest a link 'tween events and a larger problem when so little info is available.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

as an aside, am all in favor o' individual citizens speaking their mind on the current issues.  many folks is gonna be wingnuts and/or idiots.  many folks is gonna be bigoted and irresponsible. many folks is gonna have preconceptions that defy any attempt to advance any kinda dialectic. good. let the marketplace o' ideas work as it is 'posed to.  let folks share beliefs and concerns.  encourage folks to share beliefs and concerns.

 

"to courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. if there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."

 

is a freedom we have here that bruce does not.  is a belief we share that seems to baffle bruce.  we can have white supremacists and members o' the black panthers arguing 'bout issues w/o any chance o' criminalization based on ideas being shared.

 

President is different.  the President shouldn't simple shoot his mouth off and raise concerns as does the ordinary citizen. racial tensions IS high.  can be concerned and advise restraint w/o premature characterization o' events, no? 

 

oh, and don't reduce to "you don't like obama much."  is petty.  we like obama just fine when it comes to any number o' issues, but we also don't ignore his failures.  ferguson silence were fail.  call the events in minnesota and louisiana symptomatic and deeply concerning were wrong. 

 

as for the agenda issue...

 

are you channeling vol?

 

what are we talking 'bout at the moment?  is a fear in the US that cops indulge in excessive uses o' force, particularly with young, black men.  it is an issue.  the problem needs discussion. obama has been accused o' complacency regarding the issue.  the recent videos gave him an opportunity to address the issue. sadly, he jumped the gun... no pun intended. his comments has a tendency to polarize rather than unify AND he might be complete wrong that the incidents is anything other than isolated and devoid o' any meaningful racial element.

 

am not gonna get into you with it on foreign policy. 

 

 

again, if the accusation is that trump adds to the chaos, then how is obama comments any different. w/o any genuine idea o' what took place in minnesota and louisiana, he helped advance a narrative that may very well turn out to be wrong.  worse, we see no way to view his comments as having done anything other than polarize opinion.  those who look at the videos and see police brutality is gonna cheer on obama for speaking truth.  other folks who can't ever see police negligence were equal angered by obama comments.  and then there is folks such as Gromnir... folks who would ordinarily refuse to pick any kind o' side in the debate 'til we get more info.  folks such as Gromnir listen to obama comments and has a tendency to be pushed to one extreme or the other.  see obama as voicing a legit concern that need be raised regardless o' the timeliness, or folks who wonder at how a President could be so irresponsible as to suggest a link 'tween events and a larger problem when so little info is available.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Dont misunderstand  me I do understand how you view things like freedom of speech, I just dont think its applicable in the SA context ...in fact I know it wont work here 

 

So for me what you see as an agenda I see as a valid social issue but now I see your broader point, the president should maintain himself with a certain level of decorum and yes he did make certain comments personal. I have no issue with that but I can see how that might have made people think he was being unpresidential 

 

Well foreign policy decisions can be summarized for me as 

 

• He respected the veto of the UNSC in regards to Syria, we should respect this 
• He refused to agree with Israel and Saudi and just bomb Iran..the negotiations with Iran  have worked for the moment 
• The idea that the US has to be seen to be strong by invading a country due to some red line being crossed seems unnecessary considering what a mess the region is 
• Obama has made meaningful foreign policy decisions like using drones and stopping Ebola 
• He pulled the troops out of Iraq 
• He avoided unnecessary confrontation with Russia and unintentionally the Russias have destroyed there own economy ...this is a better lesson for them than some US military rhetoric 
• He has still assisted traditional and real allies like the UK in certain conflicts like Libya

 

So what issues with his foreign policy decisions do you have?

 

For me this whole police violence has been exaggerated on some levels and the media is feeding the hype .....even though they mean well 

•  

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Trump never called for anyone to be killed, and his comments are misunderstood as racist. He's actually speaking about real threats and not about race. As for Obola, every time there's a controversial police shooting, which will happen inevitably, he pushes the narrative that racist white cops are out to kill blacks, even before the full facts are known.

WOD I dont think Trump  is racist or even anti-Latino. He is just very driven in his objectives and doesnt care who gets impacted when he follows a certain  strategy

 

He decided on a certain strategy to win the Republican nomination, he completely out manouved the Republican established and won but at what cost. Seriously you cannot ignore the following

 

Latinos have been unfairly targeted, a strange risk to take just to pander to some of his supporters

 

Trump never targeted "Latinos", he targeted illegal aliens. What he said it the truth and needed to be said, although he could've been less inflammatory. I've never denied the man has his faults. http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/07/05/200k-criminal-aliens-booked-texas-jails-past-5-years-says-dps/

He decided in the beginning of his campaign that PC was wrong and he would never apologize. This whole " I dont apologize " view is actually a much bigger issue than you may realize

He's right in not apologizing, once the sharks smell blood, they close in for the kill. If we lived in a more responsible and civil society I'd agree with you.

He then made the egregious mistake of offending the majority of women in the US in various ways, that Megan Kelly interview summarizes this

He made some off-color remarks in the past, but most men have. Again, I'm not denying he has faults. The first question Kelly asked at the debate wasn't a question at all, but a vicious attack which no one would be in a position to answer, the equivalent of "When did you stop beating your wife?" Someone had clearly charged her with taking out Trump, and Kelly is insufferably self-righteous and smug. Trump was right to react the way he did, but he shouldn't have obsessed with her so much. Then again it's all part of the show.

He intentionally brought a level of belligerence and personal attacks on his fellow Republicans and degraded the Republican nomination

He was attacked as much as he attacked. He's pretty ruthless in going after what he wants, but that's not necessarily all bad in a president.

 

He did encourage racial divides in the USA because he  came across as arrogant and dismissive of anyone who differed with him and seemed to suggest " white supremacy " to me?

Don't think so, although a couple of occasions he could've handled better.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Trump never called for anyone to be killed, and his comments are misunderstood as racist. He's actually speaking about real threats and not about race. As for Obola, every time there's a controversial police shooting, which will happen inevitably, he pushes the narrative that racist white cops are out to kill blacks, even before the full facts are known.

WOD I dont think Trump  is racist or even anti-Latino. He is just very driven in his objectives and doesnt care who gets impacted when he follows a certain  strategy

 

He decided on a certain strategy to win the Republican nomination, he completely out manouved the Republican established and won but at what cost. Seriously you cannot ignore the following

 

Latinos have been unfairly targeted, a strange risk to take just to pander to some of his supporters

 

Trump never targeted "Latinos", he targeted illegal aliens. What he said it the truth and needed to be said, although he could've been less inflammatory. I've never denied the man has his faults. http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/07/05/200k-criminal-aliens-booked-texas-jails-past-5-years-says-dps/

He decided in the beginning of his campaign that PC was wrong and he would never apologize. This whole " I dont apologize " view is actually a much bigger issue than you may realize

He's right in not apologizing, once the sharks smell blood, they close in for the kill. If we lived in a more responsible and civil society I'd agree with you.

He then made the egregious mistake of offending the majority of women in the US in various ways, that Megan Kelly interview summarizes this

He made some off-color remarks in the past, but most men have. Again, I'm not denying he has faults. The first question Kelly asked at the debate wasn't a question at all, but a vicious attack which no one would be in a position to answer, the equivalent of "When did you stop beating your wife?" Someone had clearly charged her with taking out Trump, and Kelly is insufferably self-righteous and smug. Trump was right to react the way he did, but he shouldn't have obsessed with her so much. Then again it's all part of the show.

He intentionally brought a level of belligerence and personal attacks on his fellow Republicans and degraded the Republican nomination

He was attacked as much as he attacked. He's pretty ruthless in going after what he wants, but that's not necessarily all bad in a president.

 

He did encourage racial divides in the USA because he  came across as arrogant and dismissive of anyone who differed with him and seemed to suggest " white supremacy " to me?

Don't think so, although a couple of occasions he could've handled better.

 

Yes we do see some things differently around Trump but lets wait till after the election because I have  a much more detailed point to raise but only once Hilary wins ...and I wont be gloating but rather discussing some interesting developments I have observed in the USA 

[Volourn]

Yeah Huialry can win and every time a rape victim doesn't get justice she can laugh at them. She is REALLY good at that.

 

And, Trayvon Martin.. am I getting my names wrong but does that case have nothing to do with police? Wasn't he the one killed by the Latino... oops white civilian/neighbourhood watch guy? Or am I getting the name wrong?

[BruceVC]

Yeah Huialry can win and every time a rape victim doesn't get justice she can laugh at them. She is REALLY good at that.

 

And, Trayvon Martin.. am I getting my names wrong but does that case have nothing to do with police? Wasn't he the one killed by the Latino... oops white civilian/neighbourhood watch guy? Or am I getting the name wrong?

Volo!!!!  Stop being racist, he was not Latino,yes he was neighborhood watch ...that case was the beginning of the perceived bias society and the courts had towards African Americans. It started here 

[Valsuelm]

The more the word 'racism' is misused, the more it loses it's meaning. Sadly, through increasingly rampant misuse over the last few years, it's well on it's way to meaningless. On this forum, and in the world at large....

[Volourn]

"Volo!!!!  Stop being racist, he was not Latino,yes he was neighborhood watch ...that case was the beginning of the perceived bias society and the courts had towards African Americans. It started here "

 

The people being racist re the ones calling him white just to prove 'only whites canm be racist' when anyone with eyes can see he was not white. I guarantee you if some white guy had killed the neighbourhood watch guy he would have have been referred to as white.

 

Also, the people who hate blacks the most ar eblacks since it black criminals who enjoy  murdering innocent black children .  That grandmother whose vid has been linked is 100% right.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Volourn

[kgambit]

 

So what issues with his foreign policy decisions do you have?

 

 

 

Haven't we played this game before? 

[BruceVC]

 

 

So what issues with his foreign policy decisions do you have?

 

 

 

Haven't we played this game before? 

 

Lets recap, list the issues and we can discuss them. I stand by mine and can produce links 

[Gromnir]

 

 

So what issues with his foreign policy decisions do you have?

 

 

 

Haven't we played this game before? 

 

yes.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Bartimaeus]

Over 100 pages of going around in circles, guys. What a journey it's been.

[kgambit]

 

 

 

So what issues with his foreign policy decisions do you have?

 

 

 

Haven't we played this game before? 

 

Lets recap, list the issues and we can discuss them. I stand by mine and can produce links 

 

 

No because we've been done this road before multiple times.  It's like riding a merry-go-around .....

 

And you seriously don't remember this?  And I thought you had a photographic memory ........

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79124-road-to-the-white-house-2016/page-9?do=findComment&comment=1701567

 

And once again, Obama was not responsible for the troop withdrawal from Iraq.  That was dictated by the existing SOFA agreement that expired in 2011 and put in place by George Bush.  Without a negotiated extension, the troop withdrawal was going to happen anyway.  Giving him credit for the troop withdrawal is a huge stretch; especially in light of the fact he actually attempted to negotiate a NEW SOFA which would have kept troops in place.*

 

 

In fairness, I'll give him credit for the massive effort to stop the further spread of the Ebola outbreak, normalizing relations with Cuba and focusing more on relations in SE Asia.  Beyond that, I can't think of many positives from his foreign policy. 

 

*Zoraptor would arguably point out that the Iraqi parliament wanted the troops gone so a SOFA extension was highly unlikely.  While that's certainly got a lot of merit, it is immaterial.  It doesn't matter whether it was the Iraqis or USA that were being intractable during negotiations.  The point is that when the negotiations failed, the existing troop withdrawal deadline took effect and Obama had no hand in establishing that timeframe. 

Edited July 11, 2016 by kgambit

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

So what issues with his foreign policy decisions do you have?

 

 

 

Haven't we played this game before? 

 

Lets recap, list the issues and we can discuss them. I stand by mine and can produce links 

 

 

No because we've been done this road before multiple times.  It's like riding a merry-go-around .....

 

And you seriously don't remember this?  And I thought you had a photographic memory ........

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79124-road-to-the-white-house-2016/page-9?do=findComment&comment=1701567

 

And once again, Obama was not responsible for the troop withdrawal from Iraq.  That was dictated by the existing SOFA agreement that expired in 2011 and put in place by George Bush.  Without a negotiated extension, the troop withdrawal was going to happen anyway.  Giving him credit for something that was going to happen if he did nothing seems a huge stretch; especially in light of the fact he actually attempted to negotiate a NEW SOFA which would have kept troops in place.*

 

 

In fairness, I'll give him credit for the massive effort to stop the further spread of the Ebola outbreak, normalizing relations with Cuba and focusing more on relations in SE Asia.  Beyond that, I can't think of many positives from his foreign policy. 

 

*Zoraptor would arguably point out that the Iraqi parliament wanted the troops gone so a SOFA extension was highly unlikely.  While that's certainly got a lot of merit, it is immaterial.  It doesn't matter whether it was the Iraqis or USA that were being intractable during negotiations.  The point is that when they failed, the existing troop withdrawal deadline took effect

 

Yes but I only remember things that are true or relevant .....imagine if I remembered all the nonsense I heard 

 

Sure, okay the withdrawal troops was sort of discussed before Obama but was it ....read this

 

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/02/14/82082/despite-opposing-withdrawal-from-iraq-cheney-takes-credit-for-withdrawal-success/

[kgambit]

 

 

 

 

 

So what issues with his foreign policy decisions do you have?

 

 

 

Haven't we played this game before? 

 

Lets recap, list the issues and we can discuss them. I stand by mine and can produce links 

 

 

No because we've been done this road before multiple times.  It's like riding a merry-go-around .....

 

And you seriously don't remember this?  And I thought you had a photographic memory ........

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79124-road-to-the-white-house-2016/page-9?do=findComment&comment=1701567

 

And once again, Obama was not responsible for the troop withdrawal from Iraq.  That was dictated by the existing SOFA agreement that expired in 2011 and put in place by George Bush.  Without a negotiated extension, the troop withdrawal was going to happen anyway.  Giving him credit for something that was going to happen if he did nothing seems a huge stretch; especially in light of the fact he actually attempted to negotiate a NEW SOFA which would have kept troops in place.*

 

 

In fairness, I'll give him credit for the massive effort to stop the further spread of the Ebola outbreak, normalizing relations with Cuba and focusing more on relations in SE Asia.  Beyond that, I can't think of many positives from his foreign policy. 

 

*Zoraptor would arguably point out that the Iraqi parliament wanted the troops gone so a SOFA extension was highly unlikely.  While that's certainly got a lot of merit, it is immaterial.  It doesn't matter whether it was the Iraqis or USA that were being intractable during negotiations.  The point is that when they failed, the existing troop withdrawal deadline took effect

 

Yes but I only remember things that are true or relevant .....imagine if I remembered all the nonsense I heard 

 

Sure, okay the withdrawal troops was sort of discussed before Obama but was it ....read this

 

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/02/14/82082/despite-opposing-withdrawal-from-iraq-cheney-takes-credit-for-withdrawal-success/

 

 

Don't be snarky young grasshopper.  It's not my fault that you have difficult distinguishing fact from fantasy.  

 

It wasn't sort of discussed before Obama - the timeline was agreed to before Obama took office,  It specified that combat troops would be withdrawn from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. combat forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011. 

 

Check the timeline:  On June 30, 2009 all US Combat troops withdrew from Iraqi urban areas - exactly as dictated by the SOFA.  By the end of 2011, with the exception of ~700 US Trainers, (mostly civilian) all US military personnel were gone. 

 

For heavens sake, Obama tried to shift the narrative that the withdrawal of US troops led to the rise of ISIS in Iraq by saying it was the Iraqi people who were responsible for the troop withdrawal (referring to their refusal to grant US soldiers immunity from prosecution by Iraqi courts).  

 

If you think my description of the events and timeline is inaccurate then provide a link that shows exactly how it is in error.  Surely you should be able to do so since you stand by your claims and can produce links to back them up.   Or you can continue your delusions about what transpired because it fits your Obama narrative. 

 

Edit:  I won't be  holding my breath waiting for your proof. 

Edited July 11, 2016 by kgambit

[Volourn]

Yeah, that withdrawal was very successful. You know... with ISIS taking over large chunks of Iraq. You know with mass murder of Iraqis in the middle of Baghdad occurring just recently. Yup. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED OBAMA AND CHENEY MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.