Kohl of Uncanny Discernment: higher level weaker Spyglass?

[RhinoKneel]

So in my treasure collecting I came across a new item called the Kohl of Uncanny Discernment. While reading it's effects, they sounded strikingly similar to what Spyglass does and in fact it is, but worse.

 

https://imgur.com/a/teH1I

 

So instead of doing a Wisdom/Perception check of 4 to get something that can also add a d6 to other perception checks and available from the base set, you have to do an Intelligence/Perception 6 check for only a d4 addition and available after the base set.

 

I have played through a few of the physical games and I don't think this is an actual card like a few treasures are so not sure what the purpose of this card truly is...

[Namyra]

There's a few other instances where higher level cards are strictly weaker than their lower level counterparts (Wand of Shield vs. Amulet of Life and Battleaxe vs. Longsword come to mind).

 

That said, the Kohl of Uncanny Discernment is still a good card (like Spyglass is), and there's one thing that jumps out at me that might make it more valuable to certain characters. None that are out right now, though. It has the Alchemical trait, so Alchemists might be able to do something with it that they can't with the Spyglass.

[Hannibal_PJV]

Yes, that alchemical trait can be really usefull.

And having two spy Glass and some of these will make scouting so easy! Want to have!

Edited May 9, 2016 by Hannibal_PJV

[269Hawkmoon]

Even that it is easier to acquire for characters with decent intelligence and horrible wisdom is ok with me.

[Brainwave]

Higher level items being weaker than lower level versions has always seemed counter intuitive to me as well. (Even if the alcemical trait is an upgrade - it could be at least equal to th spyglass in other regards)

[da_mayor]

I kind of agree (For me it was the Deathbane Light Crossbow +1 vs. the Light Crossbow +1), but I see another point of view.

 

From a design PoV, it's not JUST about adding more powerful stuff to the box.  It's also about shaping the box to have the things you want them to have when people are playing the new scenario.

 

That all goes to HELL when you start adding random quantities of random cards from chests to the box, but it's a lovely principle.

[Brainwave]

Yeah I mean cards of the same level that aren't balanced against each other (quarterstaff vs mace comes to mind) don't bother me. But as a player when you unlock new cards it's kind of disheartening when they aren't really as good as what you already have.

 

Another example that comes to mind was when I played Skull and Shackles with a friend and he was playing the S&S version of Lini. Everytime we'd open a new pack he'd get excited about possible new animal allies and was continually let down. There were one or two that he did add along the way but he also had animals from the base set still in his deck at the end and I remember there were multiple animals added in the later packs that were complete let downs.

[Borissimo]

I agree with everyone's complaints about later-deck boons being worse than boons you already have. However, I don't think that this Kohl falls into that category. Let's look at the stats side by side:

 

Spyglass

Check to acquire: Wisdom/Perception 4

Ability 1: Reveal to add 1d6 to your Perception check

Ability 2: Discard to scout the top 2 cards of your location deck and put them back in any order

 

Kohl of Whatever the Balls

Check to acquire: Intelligence/Perception 6

Ability 1: Reveal to add 1d4 to your Perception check

Ability 2: Discard to scout the top 2 cards of your location deck and put them back in any order

 

Color added to show differences. Let's compare: the Kohl has a harder check to acquire, but some characters (most notably Ezren) will appreciate the intelligence option. This isn't a big deal. Then the Kohl adds only a d4 instead of d6 to your perception check ... but guys, let's be real here! Who picks up a Spyglass thinking, "ooooooo, +1D6 to my perception checks??? MONEY!!!" Nobody. The power of the spyglass is its scouting ability, and that's identical for the Kohl.

 

Is it the most creative item in the world? No. But it essentially adds another copy of Spyglass to your box, which is amazing. If you found a treasure chest card called Schmaugury that basically did the same thing as Augury but had an acquire check that was harder by 1 or whatever, would you complain that it was worse than Augury? No, you'd be freakin' thrilled to have another Augury!

 

As far as I'm concerned, Obsidian can fill the treasure chests with as many of Kohls of Glassy Spying, Schmauguries, Deathbone Late Crassbows, and Father Schmantuses as they want, as long as it's only the quality boons that are getting copied.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Borissimo

[Brainwave]

Ok I agree hardly anyone ever uses the spyglass for its first ability. But so what? That doesn't mean that if you're going to introduce a new version of the spyglass you can't make it more unique or different in some way instead of basically a carbon copy of the original card, with a weaker version of the power nobody uses and slightly better acquire rolls. Good card or bad card it's kind of underwhelming to open a new pack and get another copy of the same card I already had with a different name. I'd feel the same way if we were talking about the Holy Moly Candle, Augury or anything else.

[Borissimo]

How would you make the spyglass "more unique or different?" When we're talking about scouting cards, there's not much granularity to work with. Every card in the treasure chests needs to be designed, drawn, have its mechanics implemented ... it's a lot of work to make all of these cards, and I don't mind if Obsidian gives themselves a free pass every now and then by simply adding an extra copy of a high-quality boon to the box. Bring on the Holy Moly Candle!

[Brainwave]

1) Examine the top 2 cards, if one is X type you may encounter it.

 

2) Examine the top 2 cards, if neither is X type you may put the cards on the bottom of the deck.

 

3) Examine the top 2 cards. You may then choose to shuffle that deck.

 

4) Examine the top 2 cards of any location deck.

 

5) Examine the top 2 cards of your location deck or your character deck.

 

6) Examine the top 2 cards of a location deck on another players turn. If that player encounters any of those cards on that turn, add a d4 to any X type checks regarding those cards.

 

7) Examine the top 2 cards of your location deck. If one of those cards is a henchman add a d4 to any closing rolls this turn.

 

8 Discard up to 3 cards. You may examine and rearrange the top X cards of your location deck where X equals the amount of cards discarded plus one.

 

9) Bury up to 3 cards. You may examine and rearrange the top X cards of your location deck where X equals the amount of cards buried plus two.

 

10) Bury this card to examine the top 3 cards of your location deck, rearrange and encounter the top card.

 

None of that even gets into making the first ability of the "spyglass" more useful.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Brainwave

[Hannibal_PJV]

Yep there Are some archtypes.

Spy class

- see one card

- see two cards (maybe arrange, maybe not)

- see three cards (maybe arrange, maybe not)

And so on.

And a variation, where you can see cards at the buttom of location deck. Yep, there Are those too...

 

So we see "same" card with different names many time in this game.

Most of the above Are used in some Waynen the game. Some Are character powers,msomemare spells, some Are allies, but the basic funktionality is the same.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Hannibal_PJV

[Dunesparrow]

Hey there.

 

Kohl of Uncanny Discernment is a real card from the Monk class deck.

 

Thanks

[da_mayor]

Hey there.

 

Kohl of Uncanny Discernment is a real card from the Monk class deck.

 

Thanks

 

...and the Alchemist Class Deck (with different art!).

[Borissimo]

Oh hey, that's good to know! Well, hopefully that settles that. I wouldn't mind seeing more class deck cards; they have an "official" feel to them.

[da_mayor]

There're a few among the Chest cards.  The non-magical Greatclub is only in class decks, as is the non-magical Ranseur and the Spiked Chain +1.  A few others came outta nowhere (that I know of, yet), like the Battleaxe +1, Quarterstaff +1, and the Shortbow +1 (Though there IS a Force Shortbow +1 in Wrath of the Righteous...).

[wakasm]

Edit - Linked wrong Alchemist - I meant to link to Damiel, who, I can't find the character class pack scanned anywhere for linking.  

 

 

Weaker for the characters currently available... Ridiculously stronger when in the hands of someone like Cogsnap  Damiel. 

 

(Not sure how to link properly on mobile)

Edited May 12, 2016 by wakasm

[da_mayor]

Since you don't have to banish it to use it (and it doesn't define a Ranged Combat Check), I don't think Cogsnap will have much more use for it than everyone else (except that he might be able to pull it ouf of the Vault using his third power).  Unless one of his Roles says differently...

[wakasm]

You are right.  I got my alchemists mixed up and was on mobile at the time.  Also to add to my confusion, there is the Skulls and Shackles version of Damiel... and then the Character Class Pack.  I can't find a scan of the Character Class Pack... but it is in the character pdf download on Paizo.  

 

It's Damiel who has the ability I was thinking.   So your "weaker spyglass" aka Kohl of Uncanny Discernment also becomes a card to boost your combat, and eventually, most of your non-combat checks.  (his Intelligence is a d10 and Dex is a d12).   This is in addition to being a great card already for scouting purposes. 

 

Which is just an example as to how specialized classes can often take advantage of seemingly weaker cards.  (same with a lot of the discard 1 time use potions too that seem weak without an Alchemist in the mix)

 

               

You may discard a card that has the Alchemical trait (□ or any 2 cards) to add your Intelligence skill
 to your Dexterity combat check (□ or your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution non-combat check).

---------------   Mind Chemist Specialization also gives --------------------

□ You may bury (□ or discard) a card that has the Alchemical trait to add your Dexterity skill (□+2) 
to your Intelligence (□ or Wisdom or Charisma) check. (□ Then you may draw a card.) 

However, one could argue that cogsnap being able to discard a card to get a free item after a monster encounter is would make Kohl of Uncanny Discernment a bit more versatile a swell, since it can both scout and be used to farm for gear.   But no, not ridiculously more useful. 

Edited May 12, 2016 by wakasm

[Brainwave]

Has there been any suggestion that at some point S&S heroes or other non RotR heroes may be playable with the RotR app? If so I concede you've got a point but otherwise this conversation is much more applicable to the card game, in which any of the card sets can be played with any of the characters.

[wakasm]

Has there been any suggestion that at some point S&S heroes or other non RotR heroes may be playable with the RotR app? If so I concede you've got a point but otherwise this conversation is much more applicable to the card game, in which any of the card sets can be played with any of the characters.

 

Why wouldn't they? This character I am talking about isn't even the S&S version but the Character Class "Alchemist" version, which is aimed at being an accessory to the main game. For a F2P game where you need gold sinks... it would be silly for them to not eventually add them.   Had the game been launched with less bugs, i'd be even more inclined to think that these classes would be added even faster than S&S or Wrath, especially since you can purchase individual characters to begin with with gold/money for a whole new experience.

 

Regardless... my point was to illustrate how some of these weird "weaker" cards are designed in the first place.  They were designed with the extra character classes in mind. Alchemist/Alchemy is the clearest example of that... since it's actually a keyword found in the base game where no such class exists.  They designed cards with that in mind knowing later they would be releasing character add-on packs for classes. 

 

The digital game should be able to do everything the card game can do (plus more).

 

Let us not forget Dunesparrow's comment: 

 

Kohl of Uncanny Discernment is a real card from the Monk class deck.

 

 

Which is further evidence that the other classes will be coming one way or another assuming the game survives long enough to do so. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by wakasm

[Dunesparrow]

Hey there.

 

During the first Stream, I asked if we will be able to combine sets together. I think Nathan Davies said no. I am often wrong and this could be one of those times. If so I am sorry.

I would love this to be a feature of Pathfinder Adventures, but the list of planned features/functionality is probably super long already.

 

Devs haven't made any statements regarding whether characters from class decks would or wouldn't be useable not be useable with base sets.

I am hopefully that they will be useable.

 

Devs have stated a couple of times, that they are planning/intending to make all the things.

 

I interpreted "all the things" to mean:

 

Each base set, Character add-on and adventure path

Each character from the class decks

The bonus Goblin characters

Iconic character cards

 

There is so much content for PACG already, with more class decks coming every other month as well as a new base set; Mummy's Mask due in October this year.

 

So in conclusion: Patience is a virtue, especially when shown to software developers.

 

Thanks

[FatePAC]

No mixing of sets is disappointing. Hopefully they at least allows the unlocking of more cards from other sets in the chest.

[wakasm]

No mixing of sets is disappointing. Hopefully they at least allows the unlocking of more cards from other sets in the chest.

 

No mixing of sets make sense... because of the mechanics of each set.  (ships in Shackles, Mythic Paths-Charges-Cohorts-Corrupted Cards in Wrath, set specific keywords such as swash-buckling/corrupted).  I could see them restricting set specific characters to their sets as well, because of things like cohorts.  

 

However, character class add-ons are set independent so I see no reason why they wouldn't let you use characters in all sets/quest mode.  It really is the most obvious gold sink they could add besides adventures. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by wakasm

[Dunesparrow]

Hey there.

 

I concur with Wakasm.

 

Mixing sets can dilute the thematic feel of the sets.

Set specific characters usually have abilities and roles that are beneficial to that set, but lacklustre in other situations.

Also, in my opinion, there is some powers creep in characters from different sets.

 

Thanks