Is Dichotomous Soul still worth it?

[KDubya]

In my current Juggernaut 3.0 run I am questioning the worth of Dichotomous Soul (the one that summons the twins for 15 seconds at the cost of eight wounds.) It was a no brainer but now I'm not so sure.

 

Before in 2.0 the summoned twins lasted 20 seconds, had use of spell cast items on equipment and summoned fairly quickly. Now they last only 15 seconds, I believe that the use of spell cast items has been stopped and have a lengthy summoning time that includes a lotus position animation. They do have a boatload of hitpoints so there is still that.

 

I suppose my biggest issue is with the summon animation and time. If I get eight wounds it means that I am in the middle of a big combat. To stop everything, get into a lotus position and summon the twins results in a fair bit more damage incoming and zero outgoing damage for the entire animation sequence. Since the wound counter stops at ten all the extra incoming damage is wasted.

 

I'm thinking of swapping it for Iron Wheel for the +1 DR per wound,  Turning Wheel for the +5% fire lash per wound or Enervating Blows for the Weaken on crit.  For the eight wounds I could prone four guys with Force of Anguish for 10+ seconds, bang out seven Lightning Strikes fueled Torment's Reach and clear the map, reposition with a Flagellant's Path or some combination .

 

What do y'all think about the new Dichotomous Soul?

[Stasis_Sword]

For me personally it all comes down to the summoning time. I feel like I could prone 4 enemies with force of anguish and turn the tide of the entire encounter before those twins show up. Don't get me wrong they're great when they get there, but surviving until then can be a pain.

[nem0]

I would say they are definitely worth it but I understand your frustration. They do 40 damage a hit for me at max level, 1 has a stuck effect, and the other a burn DoT for about 20 damage.  It is a great way to use maxed out wounds and also take the heat off your monk or party if damage is coming too fast(summon and flagellant).  You could anguish instead but there are a lot of enemies now that are immune to prone as well as fortitude generally being the highest defense of most enemies.  I believe they also do their respective element in damage which means that you have another source of damage that isn't crush like all monk abilities. 

 

That said it is time consuming so you shouldn't spam it but it is a very good ability if you use it in the right situation and probably more impactful than any other single ability you can get as far as value.

[Boeroer]

I skip them. Not worth it unless you are playing a slow tank with sword & shield or a ranged monk who gets shot in the back by his friends.

[rheingold]

I skip them. Not worth it unless you are playing a slow tank with sword & shield or a ranged monk who gets shot in the back by his friends.

Jeepers what kind of friends do you have?

[Boeroer]

Helpful ones? How else can you summon your Long Pain without going into melee?

[KDubya]

I would say they are definitely worth it but I understand your frustration. They do 40 damage a hit for me at max level, 1 has a stuck effect, and the other a burn DoT for about 20 damage.  It is a great way to use maxed out wounds and also take the heat off your monk or party if damage is coming too fast(summon and flagellant).  You could anguish instead but there are a lot of enemies now that are immune to prone as well as fortitude generally being the highest defense of most enemies.  I believe they also do their respective element in damage which means that you have another source of damage that isn't crush like all monk abilities. 

 

That said it is time consuming so you shouldn't spam it but it is a very good ability if you use it in the right situation and probably more impactful than any other single ability you can get as far as value.

 

Not saying it is a bad ability. Before it was jaw droppingly powerful. Sometimes the Twins would not unsummon after combat and I'd send them to clear maps alone, on PotD at Cragholdt they solo'd the ogre.

 

The issue is what else you could take instead. With Juggernaut 3.0 doubling down on durability and damage, abilities are tight. At level thirteen you can grab the Twins or Iron Wheel. After swapping to Savior's Hide (Hide armor) instead of heavy plate an extra +8 DR is pretty big. Plus you still have the eight wounds to spend on the abilities you already have like Force of Anguish, Torment's Reach and Flagellant's Path.

 

As it is I always use my wounds on Torment's and Lightning Strikes, Flagellant's if I have a big block to zoom across or if I want to get to the casters, and Force of Anguish to selectively prone guys for 10+ seconds. Having another situational wound burner of eight wounds is a pretty steep price.

 

The next question will be what to take at level 15 - Turning Wheel for extra damage, Enervating Blows for a passive on crit Weaken or drab Dichotomous Souls. Since my Perception is at base I am leaning towards Turning Wheel  which will add damage to my Torment Spam and stack with the Chanter fire lash and Lightning Strikes for a third lash, fourth with Torment's. Full Attack plus 50% crush lash plus 25% lightning lash plus 25%lightning lash plus 5% X # of wounds is a pretty big number.

[Boeroer]

The best thing about Iron Wheel is (in my opinion), that it's like adjusting DR during the fight: when you need wounds fast, you have low DR and gain wounds quickly. When you're full with wounds you'll have high DR - which lets you live longer. It' better to wear lighter armor then. Not only will you profit from this "first wounds fast, then lower damage" mechanic, but your speed will also be much higher. In my opinion it's one of the best monk's abilities - if he doesn't plan to spend his wounds asap. But even then it can be great if you get CC'd. While you are paralyzed and can't do anything - your Iron Wheel will keep you alive. Great Synergy with any kind of healing over time.

[MaxQuest]

Hmm. Their cost being 8 wounds make it look like this:

 

Dichotomous Summon or 8 x Torment's Reach + talent point. That's no deal twins for me.

 

The next question will be what to take at level 15 - Turning Wheel for extra damage, Enervating Blows for a passive on crit Weaken or drab Dichotomous Souls. Since my Perception is at base I am leaning towards Turning Wheel

Agreed with your choice. High Per and have stunning weapons? A: Enervating Blows (as the debuff is applied before the damage, and it will be easier to stun the target on the same hit). Otherwise: Turning Wheel for the extra damage.

[Elric Galad]

What annoys me with Turning Wheel is that it starts dealing real damages only when you have 5+ wounds stacked due to lash mechanics.
Iron wheel starts being effective once you get a couple of wounds stacked, which happens all the time. Plus it is really nice when you're monk is stunned and get gangbanged. It is the ability that makes Ondra monks so annoying to kill in spite of their very low base DR, even when paralyzed.

I would always take Iron Wheel, whatever the build.

 

But ok, we're not discussing about Turning Wheel vs Iron Wheel.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

By the way: Turning Wheel and Enervating Blows now work with retaliation. Lightning Strikes doesn't.
Enervating Blows, Sura's Supper Plate and that Lavender thingy or Binding Rope make a great retaliation debuff: apply sickened/stuck and weakened when getting hit is quite nice. Enemies' will and fortitude will drop a lot. Good synergy with Force of Anguish: lots of prone-crits.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Boeroer

[Mygaffer]

I just picked up dichotomous soul and have been unimpressed. Perhaps if the copies lasted a little longer but right now it feels like those wounds are better spent elsewhere. 

 

Good thing we can resepc now.

[Boeroer]

It used to be great - now it's just meh.

[nem0]

Are binding rope, lavender wreath, and retaliation working in conjunction now? According to a monk build posted they weren't working together.

[Boeroer]

In 3.02 it still surpresses each other - same in the 3.03 beta I think (didn't test that, but nobody said otherwise and it's not in the patch notes).

You can add retaliation to Binding Rope XOR Lavender Wreath with Sura's Supper Plate - since it's a weapon it's retaliation enchantment stacks with the rest.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Boeroer