want dialog option for Iovara: "Are you retarded?" = main story doesn't make sense.

[Guest]

Risky click of the day

[falchen]

Where do people in Eora think the gods came from anyway?

[Guest]

I imagine the same place that people on earth imagine their gods came from. See the post above yours for more information.

[falchen]

Yeah...I know? It was in response to how people in Earth do things based on religion, and possible reactions to man-made proof. So, like you said, a straight up comp doesn't work. Which was the point of the post.

 

Basically, for the sake of this argument 1/ let's assume the christian religion is true, god really does exist, and everyone knows this, god really did create the world, and he will judge people after their life is over, then send their spirit to heaven or hell based on how they lived. People believe god is a powerfull and all knowing spirit.

 

2/ some scientist finds proof that god is actually the last survivor of an alien race, he created the earth with his civilizations advanced terraforming tech, heaven and hell are virtual simulations where people's brains get uploaded to reward or punish people after their natural lifespan. He's still all powerfull and all knowing and everything else people believe about him.

 

The new information from 2/ wouldn't change anything, you'd still keep worshiping him so you don't end up punished with hell and to get into heaven, right?

 

Basically I asume people worship gods because of the powers they wield, they get their authority from fear of consequences and rewards for obedience.

Edited April 22, 2016 by falchen

[Tigranes]

Wait, are you being ironic with that? 

 

Because it would obviously be a game changer for hundreds of millions of people. 

 

I'm being dumb, but I can't tell because of your last sentence. That's just you, clearly as someone who doesn't believe, just assuming what you think is the only sensible reason for someone to believe.

[falchen]

Not being sarcastic, guess we are just on completely different wavelengths then and I'll have to file this under " does not compute".

 

The last sentence was reasoning why I think the people of Eora wouldn't stop worshiping their gods even if the truth about them came out, Magran not being "real" is just a sematic argument when she's sending visions or setting people on fire just the same.

Edited April 22, 2016 by falchen

[Tigranes]

I'm sure it was just my brain short-circuiting.

 

My point is that Eora's society, as a whole, would be shaken greatly by such a revelation, and it would result in social unrest - even if the majority of people ultimately retain their faith in the pantheon. It is highly unlikely to argue that everyone would shrug and say oh well, I never cared anyway I just obey for the powers. 

 

If POE2 tackled the aftermath, that's exactly what makes the revelation interesting: learning about the gods' secret in itself is, eh. What is striking is how this then causes ripples - people trying to say gods aren't real and make their own gods or move to bring down the religious authorities, people trying to rationalise the new information nin different ways causing a schism within the religion and creating different sects, and of course people still remember the Waidwen business. It's not unreasonable to expect that, having just experienced what increasingly seems like the real death of a God, and learning on top of that the artificial birth of the Gods, people might then move to broker deals with Gods to kill other ones, and start to contravene the existing rules governing the status quo (the rules that prevented Gods from killing each other in the first place), etc.

[FlintlockJazz]

I was missing a dialogue option like "So what?". Like I genuinelly don't get what the knowledge that the gods were created rather than just popping into existence at random would change for the world as a whole.

 

Why would that lead to chaos, how does that reveal mean "we can't be sure of nothing", that people's lifes are meaningless or anything else that Thaos and Iovara go on about?

 

Alternatively, why would knowing this mean people will behave like animals with nothing to guide them? The gods are still there just as powerfull as they were yesterday. If anything it would have been blowing up Eothas which would tell people that the gods can be fought and killed.

This so much.  I was like, "Yeah, I don't particularly care..."  Iovara seemed to be some mouthpiece for some great philosophical waxing that I was just not invested in and seemed to be drawing conclusions out of thin air.  Nothing you are allowed to say puts her in her place, and I cannot believe she inspired any great heretical movement at all.  I'm like "Yeah, can we wrap this up Iovara so I can chuck you into the cycle of reincarnation against your will please...?"

 

I think the last bit, about Eothas' death being a bigger deal that is the clincher for me.  If the nonexistance of gods is such a big deal for kith then the possibility to destroy them should be just as big a traumatic deal if not moreso.  Instead they have a party and then go kill some Eothasians.  All's good.

[Parasol_Syndicate]

I think it's reasonable to think that if your creators turned out to be creations, you'd see a rapid dropoff of piety. 

 

For instance, Rymrgand is supposed to be behind all entropy. Except he apparently isn't, and just advocates and benefits from same. 
Presumably there was a moon, and oceans before Ondra, too. 

I guess that gods still show mastery over their dominions, but they aren't actually joined with them. And for some people, that could be a tough sell. 

[house2fly]

I'm getting flashbacks to The Matrix, and how Cypher not only didn't mind much that his experiences in the Matrix weren't real, but actually wanted to go back to it.

[falchen]

I'm getting flashbacks to The Matrix, and how Cypher not only didn't mind much that his experiences in the Matrix weren't real, but actually wanted to go back to it.

 

Funnily enough I thought if it weren't for the betrayal part he would have had the right idea!

[Guest Ontarah]

I just wanted more dialog options that basically espoused Aloth's opinion: However the gods were created, they are here *now.*  Whether they magically poofed into existence or were created is ultimately as irrelevant as whether the earth poofed into existence or was created.  Neither removes the very realness of them in the present.  Combined with "people will act like people whether there are gods around or not."  However, my options with both her and Thaos seemed pretty much limited to "No, it can't be!  My world is shattered!" and "Lying liars that lie are evil!"

 

What I wanted was a big fat "So what?" option to her revelation that the Gods were Engwithan creations. 

 

This was especially weird that the game apparently gives you a choice between rage and despair about the "falseness" of the gods and then makes you do what the gods want anyway. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by Ontarah

[Guest Ontarah]

It can be hard for an atheist to understand why it would matter that the powerful ethereal being people worship isn't a god. It might help to think of it as being like finding out you were adopted, people react in different ways when they find out something like this even though nothing has materially changed in their lives.

 

I'm a theist and this reveal would bother me not in the least.  If anything it seems like it would be a happy source of agreement to be had with humanists considering people are the ones who made the gods.  The idea that small things added together can equal something much larger than the sum of their parts is not threatening.  After all, an Abrahamist believes we are created from dirt and an atheist believes our consciousness rises up out of strings of hydrocarbons.  Why should Gods arising out of people be so different? 

Edited May 16, 2016 by Ontarah

[Guest Ontarah]

I'm sure it was just my brain short-circuiting.

 

My point is that Eora's society, as a whole, would be shaken greatly by such a revelation, and it would result in social unrest - even if the majority of people ultimately retain their faith in the pantheon. It is highly unlikely to argue that everyone would shrug and say oh well, I never cared anyway I just obey for the powers. 

 

If POE2 tackled the aftermath, that's exactly what makes the revelation interesting: learning about the gods' secret in itself is, eh. What is striking is how this then causes ripples - people trying to say gods aren't real and make their own gods or move to bring down the religious authorities, people trying to rationalise the new information nin different ways causing a schism within the religion and creating different sects, and of course people still remember the Waidwen business. It's not unreasonable to expect that, having just experienced what increasingly seems like the real death of a God, and learning on top of that the artificial birth of the Gods, people might then move to broker deals with Gods to kill other ones, and start to contravene the existing rules governing the status quo (the rules that prevented Gods from killing each other in the first place), etc.

 

So people would go on killing each other or having breakdowns or becoming fanatics in the name of assorted ideologies?  Sounds about the same.

 

*Three post obsessive limit*

[house2fly]

It matters that they were created by people because if they were created by people they aren't gods. They're like big magic policemen created to enforce the Engwithan social order. You're only thinking of them as gods because they refer to themselves that way.

[Guest Ontarah]

Not really.  Ignosticism is a whole strain of thought that basically centers on how pointless questions about God are because God is basically a nonsense word that can mean whatever you want it to mean.  I think of them as gods because I have a definition of gods that they can fit into perfectly nicely.  Heck, the plain Jane MerriamWebster definition will suffice: "a spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people : one of various spirits or beings worshipped in some religions"

 

There's no question that revealing they were created by Engwithans would produce a ton of debate about their nature.  The question is whether these debates would be fundamentally different from all the existential and ideological quagmires people previously got themselves into when they thought the gods just materialized out of the ether.  I don't think they would be.   

 

I mean believing the gods just *were* didn't stop people from killing the avatar of Eothas.  Believing the gods just *were* did not stop the Engwithans or Iovara from digging around to find the truth.  It also didn't stop at least two prominent orders of druids from going "Eh, who needs gods anyway?"  Heck, Durance resolves to destroy Magran before it was revealed what she really was for the sleight of betraying him.  He could care less if she was birthed from the chaos before time began or whatever.  

Edited May 17, 2016 by Ontarah

[house2fly]

Right but these aren't gods. They are robots. Saying "well they're still gods to me" is like watching the bit in Return Of The Jedi where the ewoks worship C3PO and thinking "huh, maybe he really IS a god"

[Guest Ontarah]

Right but these aren't gods. They are robots. Saying "well they're still gods to me" is like watching the bit in Return Of The Jedi where the ewoks worship C3PO and thinking "huh, maybe he really IS a god"

 

Um, how are they not gods by that definition I just provided?  You can even chop off that last part if that's too general (I sort of agree it is).  This would rule out C-3PO but it doesn't rule out the Engwithan gods.  Why isn't that a valid definition?  That's kind of my point.  You saying, but they aren't *gods* ultimately has no more authority than me saying but they *are* gods.  This is precisely why where they came from in the grand scheme of things is fairly irrelevant to its actual impact on human behaviors.  Humans will carry on being humans.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Ontarah

[house2fly]

They'd fit that definition, though I think the whole thing is a little too general. It could also apply to Satan, or Saruman from Lord Of The Rings, or conceivably Barack Obama.

[Guest Ontarah]

I would personally stick "with extrahuman means" and probably "to an extremely large degree" on the end of that definition.  That would rule out Barack Obama but not necessarily Satan (who is in fact worshiped as an idea at least) and Saruman (who in LotR lore is something very like a fallen angel).  I just don't think "extrahuman" must mean "supernatural."  Many pantheistic and polytheistic gods are arguably not supernatural either because they operate within or as agents of nature and natural processes.  In those belief systems things like Hamadryads are not supernatural.  They are as much a natural facet of the forest as moss and trees.  There are in fact fewer belief systems that believe that gods are above or beyond the world - completely transcendent - as there are ones that believe they are part of it.   

Edited May 17, 2016 by Ontarah

[FlintlockJazz]

They'd fit that definition, though I think the whole thing is a little too general. It could also apply to Satan, or Saruman from Lord Of The Rings, or conceivably Barack Obama.

As would the Greek Gods who were also created according to their myths, or in the case of many of them born human.  Satan is defined as a god to some.  Loki went around shagging and getting shagged by things and was still a god.  Barack Obama is still a human, he wields influence but does not have any powers a normal human couldn't have, though once we start modifying ourselves and become transhumans and posthumans then we may become literal gods.

[Fenixp]

Right but these aren't gods. They are robots.

Just curious - and do feel free to just not answer if you don't feel like answering - are you religious? I feel like the word "God" would have a largely different meaning to a person actually believing in some and those for whom the word doesn't actually hold any special meaning, that's why I'm wondering.

[falchen]

Yea, basically this comes down to one's defition of god, my own would be amongs the lines of what Ontarah posted at the top of this page.

 

If you compare the gods from Pillars of eternity (even knowing the reveal about them) to other gods from fiction or real world cultures they aren't much different - they wouldn't be out of place next to the olympian gods or the various pantheons from Forgotten realms.

 

So if you say the Pillars gods are revealed to not be gods at all, it would be helpfull to say what criteria of godhood apply here.

[Elerond]

Gods are beings or entities that people believe to be gods. It don't matter where they come as long as people believe that they are gods.

 

Like for example part of Christianity is to believe that a man (Jesus Christ) was conceived by God (the Father Almighty) touching a girl as spirit (Holy Spirit) and that man is therefore son of God (the Father Almighty). And when this said man died it is believed that he did go to hell and then rose from the death and walked among his followers and then ascended to heaven, where he sits on right side of God (the Father Almighty) as his son and where he judges living and dead. And Christians worship these three entities as gods, but there is only one God in the Christianity (Trinity/Holy Trinity).

 

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

 

(Lutheran version of Apostles' Creed)

 

Lutherans believe in the Triune God and reject other interpretations regarding the nature of God.

(Article I of Augsburg Confession, titled as God)

Edited May 19, 2016 by Elerond

[Yonjuro]

Gods are beings or entities that people believe to be gods. It don't matter where they come as long as people believe that they are gods.

 

 

 That seems like too broad of a definition. David Berkowitz (better known as the Son of Sam killer) believed that a dog in his neighborhood was divine and was instructing him to kill people. Isn't that dog a god by your definition? Doesn't the belief need to be based on reality in some way?