Deflection and Resolve...

[AndreaColombo]

^ So you would have DEX affect both Action Speed and Deflection, while armor would bestow a recovery penalty as well as a Deflection penalty?

 

While I understand the rationale, that would make DEX a tad too good and an absolute must-pump stat for anyone using armor (and especially so heavy armor.) It would also further polarize tanks in heavy armor versus DPS in lighter armor—a polarization that was already a fairly big issue when the game released (and was later ameliorated by improvements to the A.I., the introduction of Durgan Steel, and our understanding of how to stack attack speed bonuses.)

 

I also understand the argument for INT, but I would personally find the inconsistency rather jarring if the same effect was achieved via different attributes depending on the class (and I bet it would be a nightmare to code—don't even wanna think of the bugs that would ensue!) A bit too simulationist for my taste. I'm all for having a balanced attribute system (and the current system, while not perfect, is fairly good in that regard imo), and I appreciate consistency between attributes and their effects, but ultimately this is a game: Having fun should take precedence over being realistic when both things can't be achieved simultaneously to a satisfactory degree, or without exceedingly hacky code.

[kvaak]

^ So you would have DEX affect both Action Speed and Deflection, while armor would bestow a recovery penalty as well as a Deflection penalty?

 

While I understand the rationale, that would make DEX a tad too good and an absolute must-pump stat for anyone using armor (and especially so heavy armor.) It would also further polarize tanks in heavy armor versus DPS in lighter armor—a polarization that was already a fairly big issue when the game released (and was later ameliorated by improvements to the A.I., the introduction of Durgan Steel, and our understanding of how to stack attack speed bonuses.)

 

I also understand the argument for INT, but I would personally find the inconsistency rather jarring if the same effect was achieved via different attributes depending on the class (and I bet it would be a nightmare to code—don't even wanna think of the bugs that would ensue!) A bit too simulationist for my taste. I'm all for having a balanced attribute system (and the current system, while not perfect, is fairly good in that regard imo), and I appreciate consistency between attributes and their effects, but ultimately this is a game: Having fun should take precedence over being realistic when both things can't be achieved simultaneously to a satisfactory degree, or without exceedingly hacky code.

 

I'll vouch for anything that makes heavy armor even worse than it is already.

 

[AndreaColombo]

^ Why is that?

[kvaak]

I probably shouldn't assume everyone is familiar with the phenomenon.

 

Read that as "heavy armour is already terrible for most of the game, why would you ever make it even WORSE?"

Edited March 13, 2016 by kvaak

[AndreaColombo]

^ Fair enough. I disagree with that—I prefer to stack speed bonuses and wear plate armor than to wear light armor and need no buffs to be quick. Appreciate that YMMV.

[Crucis]

^ So you would have DEX affect both Action Speed and Deflection, while armor would bestow a recovery penalty as well as a Deflection penalty?

 

While I understand the rationale, that would make DEX a tad too good and an absolute must-pump stat for anyone using armor (and especially so heavy armor.) It would also further polarize tanks in heavy armor versus DPS in lighter armor—a polarization that was already a fairly big issue when the game released (and was later ameliorated by improvements to the A.I., the introduction of Durgan Steel, and our understanding of how to stack attack speed bonuses.)

 

I also understand the argument for INT, but I would personally find the inconsistency rather jarring if the same effect was achieved via different attributes depending on the class (and I bet it would be a nightmare to code—don't even wanna think of the bugs that would ensue!) A bit too simulationist for my taste. I'm all for having a balanced attribute system (and the current system, while not perfect, is fairly good in that regard imo), and I appreciate consistency between attributes and their effects, but ultimately this is a game: Having fun should take precedence over being realistic when both things can't be achieved simultaneously to a satisfactory degree, or without exceedingly hacky code.

 

 

A.  Agility, aka DEX, is always going to be important in any rational system.  That's just life.  You can't avoid being hit by a sword if you're not agile.  It's as simple as that.  Yes, I'm sure that skill factors in there, but that's very adequately covered by DEFL bonuses as you level up, since I think that one can safely say that characters as they level up are becoming more skillful.

 

B. I personally find the "consistency" to be rather jarring.  And would find a supposed lack of consistency to be more rational.  People aren't going to draw their power (in this case, the "power" to extend duration and AoE of spells and abilities) from the same source.  Some will do it due to their intelligence.  Some will do it due to their strength of will or belief. 

 

I personally find it jarring to see every well built barbarian being ridiculously intelligent.  IMO, they should be drawing their power to enhance their abilities' durations and AoE's from their force of will, which would absolutely be a RES thing.

 

Sometimes there is some value to consistency.  But quite often, the old Emerson quote holds true.  "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."  I think that this is one of those cases where excessive consistency is a negative, not a positive.

 

C.  Having fun matters.  But having things be more rational in the game system, IMO, is a lot more "fun" than systems that are ridiculously irrational and annoying, in the name of game balance.  The latter sentiment presupposes that it's not possible to produce a system that's both rational AND balanced, which I find to be a grossly flawed rationale.

[kvaak]

It's certainly doable but if you use slow two-handed weapons you'll never realistically hit the attack speed cap. As monster damage increases much faster than available DR you're much better off using stuff like Wael's Eyes and grabbing bits and pieces of DR where you can.

 

If you're a dual-wielding fighter then certainly, the extra DR is well worth it. I tend to use slower weapons a lot so usually only my sponge wants plate.

Edited March 13, 2016 by kvaak

[AndreaColombo]

A.  Agility, aka DEX, is always going to be important in any rational system.  That's just life.  You can't avoid being hit by a sword if you're not agile.  It's as simple as that.  Yes, I'm sure that skill factors in there, but that's very adequately covered by DEFL bonuses as you level up, since I think that one can safely say that characters as they level up are becoming more skillful.

 

B. I personally find the "consistency" to be rather jarring.  And would find a supposed lack of consistency to be more rational.  People aren't going to draw their power (in this case, the "power" to extend duration and AoE of spells and abilities) from the same source.  Some will do it due to their intelligence.  Some will do it due to their strength of will or belief. 

 

I personally find it jarring to see every well built barbarian being ridiculously intelligent.  IMO, they should be drawing their power to enhance their abilities' durations and AoE's from their force of will, which would absolutely be a RES thing.

 

Sometimes there is some value to consistency.  But quite often, the old Emerson quote holds true.  "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."  I think that this is one of those cases where excessive consistency is a negative, not a positive.

 

C.  Having fun matters.  But having things be more rational in the game system, IMO, is a lot more "fun" than systems that are ridiculously irrational and annoying, in the name of game balance.  The latter sentiment presupposes that it's not possible to produce a system that's both rational AND balanced, which I find to be a grossly flawed rationale.

 

A. I'm not arguing your logic. All I'm saying is that DEX would be mechanically too good if it improved both Action Speed and Deflection.

 

B. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Yes, I too find it jarring that Barbarians need be intelligent in this setting, but that's because the class design includes the Carnage ability (which was never inherent to any Barbarian in any other setting.) Now I'm not saying there should be no Carnage; it's kewl and everything. The side effect is that in this system it benefits from INT. I'm willing to pay this price to have a fun ability (but I'm mostly taking this example to make a general point here; I don't particularly like to play Barbarian characters in any setting.)

 

C. Again, I'm not saying you can't have a system that is both rational and fun. I'm saying it's really hard to design and possibly even harder to code. Given the time and resources at their disposal, I think Obsidian have done a very good job with the current system—it is certainly more balanced and interesting than AD&D's (and, frankly, than any D&D edition's as far as I'm concerned.) It could be better, but ain't that always the case with everything? I don't really think PoE's attribute system is "ridiculously irrational and annoying."

 

It's certainly doable but if you use slow two-handed weapons you'll never realistically hit the attack speed cap.

 

You most certainly can. My main Fighter build reaches 0 recovery with a two-hander, plate armor, and Vulnerable Attack. Sure, I need a potion of DAOM for that but, as I said, I would rather buff and wear plate (which vicariously makes me look totally badass) than to wear lighter armor and do without buffs. A matter of personal preference, really.

 

If you stack attack speed bonuses, reaching 0 recovery is rather easy and you don't even need DEX for that.

Edited March 13, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Elerond]

When we divide character to 6 attributes that describe them then possibility for system that can simulates real world in any meaningful degree is lost.

 

But it is always possibly come up simulative rationales that explain what said attributes can give character abilities/bonuses that rule systems says that they do.

 

Priority in PoE's attribute system's design was not make system simulative, but to enable as many builds as possible. Although they didn't succeed in some cases that well. Like for example they failed to make constitution attractive attribute overall and for some classes some attributes are just too important. But maybe they get closer to their in second try if they make PoE2

[KDubya]

How do all of you "deflection = dodging & dexterity" explain a Dragon having a huge deflection?

 

Is something the size of a house moving 'matrix' style causing your gun shot to miss? Or does the dragon just shrug off blows that don't hit very small vulnerable spots, similar to how a high resolve guy can push past the pain and keep fighting. I imagine a high resolve guy as getting hit but just ignoring the pain.

[wanderon]

I don't have much trouble with the devs balancing stuff by assigning things to the attributes they have chosen that may or may not make sense given our normal understanding of the word they chose to use to describe or define the attribute. I have no trouble accepting that that's just the way things work in their (soul driven) world. In fact I much prefer they choose familiar terms than to make up "in game" terms to describe terms like might, dex con etc.

 

Resolve effects deflection? OK by me! That's much better than the resolve attribute being labeled Evloser in order to have it work the way they wish without having people say hey thats crazy you can't do that deflection is better suited to  Ytiretxed... 

[Crucis]

How do all of you "deflection = dodging & dexterity" explain a Dragon having a huge deflection?

 

Is something the size of a house moving 'matrix' style causing your gun shot to miss? Or does the dragon just shrug off blows that don't hit very small vulnerable spots, similar to how a high resolve guy can push past the pain and keep fighting. I imagine a high resolve guy as getting hit but just ignoring the pain.

 

Easy.  Dragon's shouldn't have huge deflection scores.

 

Frankly, I'm not a fan of dragons in these games anyways.  They always seem so illogical.  Why do I say that?  You have a creature that can fly and can breath fire.  Why in the hell is that thing ever coming within weapons range (at least melee range) of your party in the first place???!!!  It should be staying up in the air and blasting away with its breath weapons.  (I suppose that the adra dragon is an exception here because I'm kinda thinking that it can't fly, though I could be wrong on that.) 

 

Beyond that, dragons are just too cliched, IMO.  For all the talk about avoiding the old D&D and Forgotten Realms cliches from the old IE games, the devs couldn't resist the biggest cliche around.  Dragons.    Would it have been so difficult or wrong to have a setting without dragons as the ultimate monsters to fight?

[Brimsurfer]

It's just gameplay balance, what the stats are named might as well be arbitrary. If it bothers you just pretend Deflection is called Defense and Resolve is Toughnes

 

Nope, that doesn't work.....

[Brimsurfer]

The problem with putting Deflection on DEX or PER is that RES would become useless, and the other stat would become too good unless you removed the bonus it already gives (and I think bonuses currently given are all fitting and good except the case in point, which isn't super fitting.)

 

Perhaps swap Accuracy and Deflection across PER and RES? But honestly, would that make that much of a difference at this point?

Res will not become useless at all....it refers to inner strength, determination, emotional intensity, its contributes to the presence of personality and toughness against influences...........so it should contribute to resistances, multiple saving throws, should also contribute to ability durations and size and effectiveness of auras, I mean stuff like that........

 

I already said they will probably have to go back to drawing board to fix this in a way that it would make sense because what I am suggesting may result in a some overlapping between resolve and intelligence because at the moment it doesn't make sense that how come a characters intelligence increases the ability auras, specially in case of Paladin and Chanters......

 

I mean honestly if you really think about the attributes and the stats to which they contribute, doesn't really make a whole lotta sense specially in some cases.........

[Valorian]

Let's resume our beloved attribute talk now that Josh has delivered his at GDC.

 

Attributes: More impactful and less formulaic (less blanket attributes that have +/- X without exceptions), pls.

The main goal was to prevent bad attribute builds, buuuut.... you put stars near attributes to further halp people. With stars near good attributes for each class already in place, you could maybe experiment with injecting a little bit more RP verisimilitude into them, no? 

 

I'll try.

Might: 5% damage (doesn't affect crossbows and guns). Woo-hoo, an attribute with an exception; ignores some weapons! Xbows and guns now great choice for people who decided to dump might.

Constitution: 8% HP

Dexterity: 3% action speed and +/- 2 deflection (wowzers, looks many powerful)

Perception: +/- 2 accuracy (and some interrupt). But seems worse than Dex!? One is better at defense, the other at offense.

Intellect: +/- lots of aoe and duration. Powerful RP attribute. Important in games where you talk to people and solve complex (heh) problems.

Resolve: +/- lots of aoe and duration (and some concentration). Powerful RP attribute. Important in games where you talk to people.

 

But the last two both affect aoe and duration!? They work on a case by case scenario (much work, but good work). A fighter's constant recovery, for example, would be affected by resolve and his knock down by intellect.

If, after assigning intellect and resolve to each ability (good work), one of them ends up underused; it'll bestow +/- 3 to Will instead of 2.

 

It would be very important to read ability/talent descriptions before picking them.

 

 

 

[Jojobobo]

I think as others have said, attributes are empowered by your soul and hence are more thematic attributing to both physical and mental manifestations of prowess. Therefore Might contributes not only to physical strength, but also to force of will given that it boosts the power of spells as well.

 

As such, I think it's perfectly fine that Resolve contributes to Deflection. If your talking about your determination to outlast and outmatch your foes, then thematically I think that fits quite nicely with Deflection - your steely determination empowers you to be able to take hits for lesser damage.

 

For Dexterity, I don't agree it should benefit Deflection. It already benefits Reflex, which is the ability to dodge incoming attacks that are dodge-able (e.g. a ranged attack you can see coming). Dodging in melee is much more difficult than dodging an AoE attack you can see flying throw the sky towards you, it makes much more sense that the attribute governing your determination would allow you to take these hits.

 

Personally, I really like how PoE took normal attributes and made them apply to much more than what they normally would (Might contributing not only to physical strength but overall forcefulness in a general sense). For me it's one of the things that really sets it apart as a combat-based RPG, as there really isn't a dump stat to be found and it gave things like caster classes reasons to take attributes that were normally the purview of fighter classes - both in a practical and thematic sense.

[Valorian]

How? Coz magic, coz soul and so on.

It's too easy and too cheap to explain everything away like that. Often sucks mystery out of supernatural mystery (wow how? bah, probably because soul/magic or conglomerate of souls/god). PoE's setting and the concept of souls is fine, but it's important to keep the dosage at acceptable levels. Humans of Eora physically resemble humans of Earth, but imagine Eoran humans walking on their hands by default. Some human players would ask for an explanation and that explanation could or could not be "Accept it, it's becoz souls!".

Therefore it's even more important, when introducing peculiar concepts like PoE's Might, to explain how it works and why it works like that in detail. Is physical strength always the same as spiritual strength etc. I have my theory, but a plausible "official" description is always welcome.

[wanderon]

How? Coz magic, coz soul and so on.

It's too easy and too cheap to explain everything away like that. Often sucks mystery out of supernatural mystery (wow how? bah, probably because soul/magic or conglomerate of souls/god). PoE's setting and the concept of souls is fine, but it's important to keep the dosage at acceptable levels. Humans of Eora physically resemble humans of Earth, but imagine Eoran humans walking on their hands by default. Some human players would ask for an explanation and that explanation could or could not be "Accept it, it's becoz souls!".

Therefore it's even more important, when introducing peculiar concepts like PoE's Might, to explain how it works and why it works like that in detail. Is physical strength always the same as spiritual strength etc. I have my theory, but a plausible "official" description is always welcome.

 

Huh? I thought you just had to be a game developer to decide how your game would work and define it's working in your own way...

[Brimsurfer]

Developers don't know how to balance the system they created so they are dumping stats over which ever attribute, no matter how nonsensical it is, trying to make the system work..........but its all nonsense........

 

Character Resolve has never played a primary role in enabling someone to deflect incoming hits in physical fights, may be it does contribute some what partially because a person's strong mental and emotional state does contribute on some level to all his actions, but there is no way that Resolve should be the primary attribute dictating entirely, if a character is able to deflect incoming hits or not.......it must be either Perception, Dexterity or Might or perhaps all three of them partially..........

[wanderon]

Somehow I just can't get into the whole "How Things Must Work" according to Brimsurfer myself...YMMV

[redneckdevil]

My personal opinion is resolve effecting deflection is more like staring down a battlefield and not being intimidated or sweeped up in the chaos. U have so much resolve that ur not freaking out with the battle but focused and in control of urself (also willpower).

[globalCooldown]

My personal opinion is resolve effecting deflection is more like staring down a battlefield and not being intimidated or sweeped up in the chaos. U have so much resolve that ur not freaking out with the battle but focused and in control of urself (also willpower).

Honestly, this is a pretty good way to look at it. Your Resolve lets you focus more on the battle and on keeping your defenses up, instead of jumping at things. You're able to keep your nerve as well as someone who's seen many more battles than you actually have.

[HippoJ]

MIGHT - "simple past tense of 'may,' used to express possibility."  This should govern how nonlinear you are, and how much you can switch dispositions mid-game.  Also should add to sneak attack damage as you keep opponents guessing, if you think about it.

 

CONSTITUTION - "the system of fundamental principles according to which a nation, state, corporation, or the like, is governed."  Attribute checks for citing the laws of the Dyrwood in dialog.  Used to craft legal documents for your companions to use in combat.

 

DEXTERITY - "skill or adroitness in using the hands or body; agility."  Useful only for monks who don't wear armor, cause everyone else is using weapons or covering their body with armor.  Dump stat.

 

PERCEPTION - "immediate or intuitive recognition or appreciation, as of moral, psychological, or aesthetic qualities; insight; intuition."  Unlock non-combat quest chain to become a literature critic in Defiance Bay.  Also lets you question npcs' faith, and gives a bonus to identifying items.

 

INTELLIGENCE - "the gathering or distribution of information, especially secret information."  Bonus spy bounties at Caed Nua, and unlocks the 'Special Agent' prestige class.

 

RESOLVE - "to come to a definite or earnest decision about; determine."  Primary stat for settling companion arguments.  Also reduces animation speeds for dialog choices and cool-down for changing out party members.

[gkathellar]

 

 

My personal opinion is resolve effecting deflection is more like staring down a battlefield and not being intimidated or sweeped up in the chaos. U have so much resolve that ur not freaking out with the battle but focused and in control of urself (also willpower).

Honestly, this is a pretty good way to look at it. Your Resolve lets you focus more on the battle and on keeping your defenses up, instead of jumping at things. You're able to keep your nerve as well as someone who's seen many more battles than you actually have.

Also the spiritual forcefields.

[kvaak]

Also the spiritual forcefields.

 

Plot armor, now finally a visible attribute. It sort of works for dialogue too if you think of it as "armor" in a very broad sense!