Main Story, an atheist cliche?

[gogocactus]

Yes the ending is kind of hamfisted but that's not what I meant and not everybody disagrees with me, game does relay an underlying political / non religious value and to me it felt like that it was done to the extent where it kind of ruined the game, at least for me....

I have yet to see a single person agree with you in general, or on the fact that the game tries to forward a specific political agenda.

Edited March 7, 2016 by gogocactus

[house2fly]

 

 

 

If you want to say the ending's delivery is sudden and hamfisted, OK. I partly agree, although the question mark over the gods is established throughout the game via the Eothas/Waidwen problem, and the thematic question of faith and belief is reinforced by almost every single companion as well. 

 

That's really not what you're saying, though. The reason everybody is disagreeing with you is because you make an illogical jump to a random belief (game pushes a radical agenda) based on a factually incorrect basis (that Act 4's message is an atheist one).

 

Yes the ending is kind of hamfisted but that's not what I meant and not everybody disagrees with me, game does relay an underlying political / non religious value and to me it felt like that it was done to the extent where it kind of ruined the game, at least for me....

 

Why was the game ruined by relaying an underlying value?

 

Because then its not care free fun anymore, somebody is trying to push something in my face deliberately, doesn't that ruin your fun?

 

No, I enjoy plot twists and I also enjoy stories which have the potential for applicability to the real world.

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

 

 

If you want to say the ending's delivery is sudden and hamfisted, OK. I partly agree, although the question mark over the gods is established throughout the game via the Eothas/Waidwen problem, and the thematic question of faith and belief is reinforced by almost every single companion as well. 

 

That's really not what you're saying, though. The reason everybody is disagreeing with you is because you make an illogical jump to a random belief (game pushes a radical agenda) based on a factually incorrect basis (that Act 4's message is an atheist one).

 

Yes the ending is kind of hamfisted but that's not what I meant and not everybody disagrees with me, game does relay an underlying political / non religious value and to me it felt like that it was done to the extent where it kind of ruined the game, at least for me....

 

Why was the game ruined by relaying an underlying value?

 

Because then its not care free fun anymore, somebody is trying to push something in my face deliberately, doesn't that ruin your fun?

 

No, I enjoy plot twists and I also enjoy stories which have the potential for applicability to the real world.

 

And yet it was argued above that it is just a story and has no implications on real world ............

[house2fly]

And yet it was argued above that it is just a story and has no implications on real world ............

I don't agree with that argument.

[Miquel93]

 

 

POE asks a question directly, through Iovara: "what if we can be assured of nothing?"  Given that you're at the climax of the game when you're asked this question, I'd say it's as close as you get to a summing-up of the game's themes in a single line.  Not "what if there is no God?" but "what if there's no way to be sure whether or not there is a God?"  I would have assumed that if you're religious the answer would be "faith" but it's interesting to me that Brimsurfer is so offended that the question would even be asked.

 

But the game at no point makes any assertion that Iovora could be wrong as well and that there is a distinct possibility that the deities are real and are superior to man's will and spirituality.... game fails to make similar assertion at every point and yet its an RPG, that denies a player a crucial aspect of the role to play in this setting......all player dialogue choices are along the same lines which suggested all of the above that I have been saying........

 

 

You're not understanding the point. The gods are false, that's not what it's in doubt, it's the fact that the engwithan found no proof of a god that gave them purpuse, much like our own world. If there's a real deity in Eora, like ours, doesn't care and doesn't manifest in the world. That's the dilema that starts the plot. Thaos saw the question of a god existence unanswered and made his own, Iovara, after knowing about the falsehood of the gos, faced the same question, and arrived to the opposite conclusion. That's the point of the game, questions above answers.

[house2fly]

I suppose if you want a counterpoint look at Eder.  His god literally got killed, and he still prayed at the temple for years even in the face of growing religious intolerance, still worships and defends his worship to you.  He has faith even when there's no reason to.

[Zenbane]

There is no singular belief system that falls under term Christianity, there are over 21000 different Christian religions in world and they have quite lot differences between them. And they don't even always agree with core tenets of Christian faith(s).

There is a single core belief that all forms of Christianity subscribe to. I will give you a hint: it is in the world "Christianity"

 

If we look definition of atheism from other sources we find that people use definitions like this

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities"

Well I'm glad you know how to use a search engine, but my point still stands: Christianity is a belief system; Atheism is a lack of belief.

 

Nothing you've presented effectively disproves that fundamental truth.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Zenbane

[gkathellar]

Most of Buddhist religions/philosophies believe in existence of souls but not existence of god(s). In their belief there is no divine entity nor there ever has been one.

This is a pretty common Western misconception, because in Buddhism, gods (devas) are generally acknowledged to exist but not actually worshipped. You can't even get through the Buddha's backstory without bumping into Brahma, the Hindu creator. The crucial point is that gods are seen not as a wholly different class of being, but rather as having a better spot on the wheel of karma (see: death and rebirth) despite not having escaped it.

 

Of course, Buddhists of many schools do pray to the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, and Arhats more-or-less as if they were gods, so this is all a bit esoteric. In Chinese and Japanese Buddhism, the difference gets even more arcane, for complicated syncretic cultural reasons that I won't get into. Suffice it to say that not only does Buddhism have gods, it has lots of gods, who are unusual by Western standards mostly in that they had nothing to do with the world's creation.

 

What's interesting is that this attribute is actually also the most unusual thing about Eora's gods (by Western, post-classical standards); what it shares with Buddhism is not a lack of gods - it's the principle of gods as created beings who are not themselves creators. This isn't a novel idea - to Buddhism or PoE - but most of us are used to the Platonic notion of "god as unmoving mover," so we interpret "created artificially" and "god" as mutually exclusive. It says even more about our own concepts of divinity than it does about the setting's that we imagine Thaos' secret as being such a big deal. A lot of cultures, historical and extent, would see no problems.

[Zenbane]

 

Most of Buddhist religions/philosophies believe in existence of souls but not existence of god(s). In their belief there is no divine entity nor there ever has been one.

This is a pretty common Western misconception, because in Buddhism, gods (devas) are generally acknowledged to exist but not actually worshipped. You can't even get through the Buddha's backstory without bumping into Brahma, the Hindu creator. The crucial point is that gods are seen not as a wholly different class of being, but rather as having a better spot on the wheel of karma (see: death and rebirth) despite not having escaped it.

 

Of course, Buddhists of many schools do pray to the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, and Arhats more-or-less as if they were gods, so this is all a bit esoteric. In Chinese and Japanese Buddhism, the difference gets even more arcane, for complicated syncretic cultural reasons that I won't get into. Suffice it to say that not only does Buddhism have gods, it has lots of gods, who are unusual by Western standards mostly in that they had nothing to do with the world's creation.

 

What's interesting is that this attribute is actually also the most unusual thing about Eora's gods (by Western, post-classical standards); what it shares with Buddhism is not a lack of gods - it's the principle of gods as created beings who are not themselves creators. This isn't a novel idea - to Buddhism or PoE - but most of us are used to the Platonic notion of "god as unmoving mover," so we interpret "created artificially" and "god" as mutually exclusive. It says even more about our own concepts of divinity than it does about the setting's that we imagine Thaos' secret as being such a big deal. A lot of cultures, historical and extent, would see no problems.

 

 

Hooray! I was beginning to lose faith (pun intended) that anyone else around here had a solid foundation in religious studies lol

 

Nice post.

[mychal26]

The biggest spoiler in the whole game is sitting on the 'No Spoilers' forum - holy ****, give me a break. I would be pissed if I was/hadn't played yet. The TC only posts trolls topics, not sure why anyone responds, but I think this is worthy of a ban.

[Zenbane]

The biggest spoiler in the whole game is sitting on the 'No Spoilers' forum - holy ****, give me a break. I would be pissed if I was/hadn't played yet. The TC only posts trolls topics, not sure why anyone responds, but I think this is worthy of a ban.

lol... wtf are you talking about? This forum specifically states the following:

 

Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)

Discuss your favorite stories about your playthroughs of Pillars of Eternity & what makes a good cRPG experience. Spoilers are permitted in this forum, but please warn the reader in your title.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Zenbane

[mychal26]

 

The biggest spoiler in the whole game is sitting on the 'No Spoilers' forum - holy ****, give me a break. I would be pissed if I was/hadn't played yet. The TC only posts trolls topics, not sure why anyone responds, but I think this is worthy of a ban.

lol... wtf are you talking about? This forum specifically states the following:

 

Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)

Discuss your favorite stories about your playthroughs of Pillars of Eternity & what makes a good cRPG experience. Spoilers are permitted in this forum, but please warn the reader in your title.

 

 

Right.

 

[Zenbane]

Well this forum, that you are typing inside of right now, is the Spoiler Warning forum. The other thread from your screenshot is on the non-spoiler forum. Are you lost? lol

 

There were no spoilers presented on the general forum discussion - which is now a locked thread. There are spoilers in this thread, but that's okay cause this is a different forum that allows spoilers.

 

Do you really feel the need to derail the topic by mixing up the forums?

[mychal26]

Well this forum, that you are typing inside of right now, is the Spoiler Warning forum. The other thread from your screenshot is on the non-spoiler forum. Are you lost? lol

 

There were no spoilers presented on the general forum discussion - which is now a locked thread. There are spoilers in this thread, but that's okay cause this is a different forum that allows spoilers.

 

Do you really feel the need to derail the topic by mixing up the forums?

 

God you're a fool.

 

From the no spoiler forum:

 

 

 

And God-like race description creates kind of a loophole in the lore, since the closing act of the game completely discounts the existence of Gods....... (made a thread about this in stories section of the forum). One may also argue that the race is God-like only in name, as its referred as God-like only because it shares some resemblence to elements and celestials but lore doesn't say much about it, so nobody can be certain.....

 

 

 

I can't speak for other atheists, but I'm not going to tell my children bedtime stories of how an ancient civilization extracted their souls into a giant machine to create real, living godlike entities who rule over us all to this day. That's even less believable than Santa. 

[Zenbane]

God you're a fool.

Yet you're the one crying over the idea of spoilers in a game that has been available to the public for a year.

 

The general discussion thread was locked, and you're crying about spoilers on the Spoilers forum.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Zenbane

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

 

POE asks a question directly, through Iovara: "what if we can be assured of nothing?"  Given that you're at the climax of the game when you're asked this question, I'd say it's as close as you get to a summing-up of the game's themes in a single line.  Not "what if there is no God?" but "what if there's no way to be sure whether or not there is a God?"  I would have assumed that if you're religious the answer would be "faith" but it's interesting to me that Brimsurfer is so offended that the question would even be asked.

 

But the game at no point makes any assertion that Iovora could be wrong as well and that there is a distinct possibility that the deities are real and are superior to man's will and spirituality.... game fails to make similar assertion at every point and yet its an RPG, that denies a player a crucial aspect of the role to play in this setting......all player dialogue choices are along the same lines which suggested all of the above that I have been saying........

 

 

You're not understanding the point. The gods are false, that's not what it's in doubt, it's the fact that the engwithan found no proof of a god that gave them purpuse, much like our own world. If there's a real deity in Eora, like ours, doesn't care and doesn't manifest in the world. That's the dilema that starts the plot. Thaos saw the question of a god existence unanswered and made his own, Iovara, after knowing about the falsehood of the gos, faced the same question, and arrived to the opposite conclusion. That's the point of the game, questions above answers.

 

You are filling the blanks with your reasoning, the game doesn't make that assertion that there may be a real deity or deities in Eora, doesn't even mention a single theory or a name that may be associated to such a deity in entire history of Eora, in any of the scattered books, i read all of them....... and btw our world does not lack the proof that there is a deity..............

 

I reloaded the game again and again to try to find a dialogue option which would suggest that both Iovora or Thaos could be wrong but there is none and the game only pushed me in a single direction, where the gods are a lie and believing such a lie only caused strife and conflict in the world and man's will and spirituality is superior to such a belief..........sounds like someone is trying to make youngsters' mind for them.......

 

Game fails to explain what these beings are that were created by Engwithans and are referred to as Gods (misguidedly) by the common folk of Eora, who are not privy to the Secret as it was revealed in the end game...........

 

BTW I am not a religious fellow, I am who I am and I am calling it as it is and I don't like it when someone tries to push an idea, in disguise, in someone else's face...... or when someone tries to make up youngsters' mind for them.......

 

I have played other games with deities and religious systems and fantastical political ideologies, many are among my favourites, never had issues with any of them, but about PoE I am not sure, if the intentions of some of the people involved in development, were so pure with story telling.......

Edited March 8, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Zenbane]

and btw our world does not lack the proof that there is a deity.

 

That is completely untrue. There is no proof in the existence of a deity that has ever been formally presented nor acknowledged. In fact, the entire concept of "faith" entails maintaining a belief despite the complete lack of proof.

[Elerond]

 

Most of Buddhist religions/philosophies believe in existence of souls but not existence of god(s). In their belief there is no divine entity nor there ever has been one.

This is a pretty common Western misconception, because in Buddhism, gods (devas) are generally acknowledged to exist but not actually worshipped. You can't even get through the Buddha's backstory without bumping into Brahma, the Hindu creator. The crucial point is that gods are seen not as a wholly different class of being, but rather as having a better spot on the wheel of karma (see: death and rebirth) despite not having escaped it.

 

Of course, Buddhists of many schools do pray to the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, and Arhats more-or-less as if they were gods, so this is all a bit esoteric. In Chinese and Japanese Buddhism, the difference gets even more arcane, for complicated syncretic cultural reasons that I won't get into. Suffice it to say that not only does Buddhism have gods, it has lots of gods, who are unusual by Western standards mostly in that they had nothing to do with the world's creation.

 

What's interesting is that this attribute is actually also the most unusual thing about Eora's gods (by Western, post-classical standards); what it shares with Buddhism is not a lack of gods - it's the principle of gods as created beings who are not themselves creators. This isn't a novel idea - to Buddhism or PoE - but most of us are used to the Platonic notion of "god as unmoving mover," so we interpret "created artificially" and "god" as mutually exclusive. It says even more about our own concepts of divinity than it does about the setting's that we imagine Thaos' secret as being such a big deal. A lot of cultures, historical and extent, would see no problems.

 

 

Within Buddhist religions there are differing stances of Buddhism being nontheistic. Although Gautama Buddha rejected the existence of a creator deity

 

No God, no Brahma can be found,

Creator of Samsara’s round;

Empty phenomena roll on,

Subject to cause and condition.

 - Visuddhimagga, XIX.

 

Buddhist devas aren't really gods:

 

"This being so, a deva is not a God in the usual sense, and the word is apt to be misleading through its association with Western theism. If modern man could enter into the spirit of ancient Greek thought and understand the attitude of, say, Socrates towards the Greek gods he would come closer to the Buddhist view of the devas. The likeness is not perfect, for the devas, unlike the Greek deities, are not immortal; but they resemble them in being neither omnipotent nor omniscient. They are not creators of the world, but are themselves subject to the law of causality in much the same way that the Greek gods were subject to ananke, the higher law of necessity. They exhibit many of the weaknesses of human beings, and often less than their wisdom. Their present relatively happy circumstances, as well as such power as they possess, are the result of previous merit acquired as human beings.

They are in fact simply beings of another order of existence, in some ways superior to men but in others at a disadvantage. But before going further into their nature it is necessary to distinguish between (1) samutti devas (“by convention”), (2) upapatti devas (“through rebirth”) and (3) visuddhi devas (“by their purity”). The first class are human beings of high worldly status; kings; ministers and the like. The second are beings living in the deva-lokas, or higher spheres, while the third and greatest are human beings who have attained the final degree of self-liberation, and so are known as devas by purification while yet alive. These are the Supreme Buddhas, Silent Buddhas (Pacceka Buddhas) and arahats."

 

Source:

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh180-p.html

 

Same as book form in google books

https://books.google.fi/books?id=ECTrBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA361&lpg=PA361&dq=Visuddhimagga,+XIX&source=bl&ots=U4MUx2tQSU&sig=5tCLBBQ2Z3GLV46Gjs8lYyH_9Pw&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwit9sze5q_LAhVkDJoKHWvTClMQ6AEISDAI#v=onepage&q=Visuddhimagga%2C%20XIX&f=false

[Tigranes]

 I am calling it as it is

 

And you've got a bunch of people in this thread explaining to you how it's not 'as it is'. You can feel however you like about whatever, but people have explained in various ways how the game does not argue what you think it argues. 

 

Here: the game's point is that here is a fantasy world where everyone thinks these gods are real and it turns out that they are, but they were created by some ancient race. Are these gods still gods? Should people still believe in them? Is it right or wrong to tell them about this truth? 

 

If you think that is pushing an agenda then OK.

[Brimsurfer]

 

and btw our world does not lack the proof that there is a deity.

 

That is completely untrue. There is no proof in the existence of a deity that has ever been formally presented nor acknowledged. In fact, the entire concept of "faith" entails maintaining a belief despite the complete lack of proof.

 

Disagreed.......

[Brimsurfer]

 

 I am calling it as it is

 

And you've got a bunch of people in this thread explaining to you how it's not 'as it is'. You can feel however you like about whatever, but people have explained in various ways how the game does not argue what you think it argues. 

 

Here: the game's point is that here is a fantasy world where everyone thinks these gods are real and it turns out that they are, but they were created by some ancient race. Are these gods still gods? Should people still believe in them? Is it right or wrong to tell them about this truth? 

 

If you think that is pushing an agenda then OK.

 

My point of disagreement with them is that, they are rationalising, they are filling the blanks with their reasoning, not calling it as it is..........

 

Dont give it benefit of doubt.......

 

All I am saying that the intentions with story telling doesn't seem pure........it distinctively feels like there is more at play here........

 

EDIT: Anyway, that's how I felt after playing the game, and I shared it........and if anyone ask me about the game.....I'ld say its got great gameplay but story telling is pushing an idea, its not sincere.......

Edited March 8, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Zenbane]

You're definitely not calling this "as it is." You're ignoring a lot in order to claim that something is as you are calling it lol

 

Also, to state that, "the intentions with story telling doesn't seem pure... it distinctively feels like there is more at play here," is you literally trying to fill in blanks instead of calling it as it is.

 

You're doing the very thing you accuse everyone else of; and everyone else is doing the very thing you claim to be doing. It must be opposite day.

[Caribou]

 

 

and btw our world does not lack the proof that there is a deity.

 

That is completely untrue. There is no proof in the existence of a deity that has ever been formally presented nor acknowledged. In fact, the entire concept of "faith" entails maintaining a belief despite the complete lack of proof.

 

Disagreed.......

 

 

Really?  Isn't the entire point of faith that people believe in something in the face of no evidence.  Christianity (religion I am most familiar) is pretty explicit about it, e.g. John 3:16.  Jesus himself even says “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29). 

 

If religion was obvious or had proof, there would only be one.  The One True Religion^TM  because there would be nothing to argue about.  But since there is no proof, we have thousands of religions and sects and sub-sects and reformations and reformed reformations.  

 

I guess my point, is believe what you want to believe, but don't let a video game bother you.  The writers can't build a "Godhammer" in real life. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Caribou

[illathid]

 

Most of Buddhist religions/philosophies believe in existence of souls but not existence of god(s). In their belief there is no divine entity nor there ever has been one.

This is a pretty common Western misconception, because in Buddhism, gods (devas) are generally acknowledged to exist but not actually worshipped. You can't even get through the Buddha's backstory without bumping into Brahma, the Hindu creator. The crucial point is that gods are seen not as a wholly different class of being, but rather as having a better spot on the wheel of karma (see: death and rebirth) despite not having escaped it.

 

Of course, Buddhists of many schools do pray to the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, and Arhats more-or-less as if they were gods, so this is all a bit esoteric. In Chinese and Japanese Buddhism, the difference gets even more arcane, for complicated syncretic cultural reasons that I won't get into. Suffice it to say that not only does Buddhism have gods, it has lots of gods, who are unusual by Western standards mostly in that they had nothing to do with the world's creation.

 

What's interesting is that this attribute is actually also the most unusual thing about Eora's gods (by Western, post-classical standards); what it shares with Buddhism is not a lack of gods - it's the principle of gods as created beings who are not themselves creators. This isn't a novel idea - to Buddhism or PoE - but most of us are used to the Platonic notion of "god as unmoving mover," so we interpret "created artificially" and "god" as mutually exclusive. It says even more about our own concepts of divinity than it does about the setting's that we imagine Thaos' secret as being such a big deal. A lot of cultures, historical and extent, would see no problems.

 

 

There's a further wrinkle in that due to the doctrine of upaya or expedient means. Buddhist could teach that gods exist, even if they don't, as long as it brings the learner closer to enlightenment. This is likely why the Pure Land of the Amida Buddha is described as a place of wonder filled with gold, jewels, etc.

 

Also, I think there is some conflation going on in this thread between atheism and materialism. While there is a large overlap between the two groups, they are not the same thing.

[house2fly]

 

 

and btw our world does not lack the proof that there is a deity.

 

That is completely untrue. There is no proof in the existence of a deity that has ever been formally presented nor acknowledged. In fact, the entire concept of "faith" entails maintaining a belief despite the complete lack of proof.

 

Disagreed.......

 

Damn.  Demolished that argument.