Riposte Rogue Viable? (PoTD)

[Brimsurfer]

Is it viable to even try and make Riposte work on PoTD? Rogues have  low deflection and I understand in order for Riposte to work I need high deflection or blinded or terrified enemies so that their attacks actually miss me......and I need to be on front line so I may need probably good DR too because enemies are probably not going to miss every hit .........so what would be a good DR score for a frontliner on PoTD?

 

Has anyone had any experience with this kind of rogue build? Please post if you have something to share about this...........

 

Thanks

[Brimsurfer]

Damn, posted here by mistake, wanted to post it in Character Builds section,,,,,,,,,if one of the moderators can move it for me, it'll be great.....thanks

Edited March 7, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Gorth]

Moved as per request

[Brimsurfer]

Moved as per request

thanks

[kvaak]

It's most certainly doable but you want to use a shield. For most characters that cripples their damage output but since rogues get crazy mad damage through their sneak attack they can deal a decent amount of damage even while using a shield.

 

Class only determines your base deflection so while a level 1 fighter will have twice as much deflection as a level 1 rogue the relative difference rapidly diminishes as you gain levels.

 

Normally I pump dex on rogues but for shield + riposte con probably works better to offset your low endurance, I'm fairly sure riposte is unaffected by action speed so if you can get it to trigger somewhat reliably it shouldn't even make much of a difference. Reflex save isn't a problem either since you get lots of it from your shield.

 

I'm currently doing a handicapped PotD run, I'll throw in a riposte rogue once I get some levels in. It should work okay since I'm also running two paladins, both of which passively boost nearby allies' deflection.

 

Stat spread could look something like this, you could probably even drop some dex and even more int. Just max your resolve since everything depends on your deflection. Wild orlan has a great passive for tanking, plus orlans get some funny banter if you make him your PC.

 

Starting background is for brigandine, if you prefer the extra point of resolve you could pick Aedyr or Ixamitl Plains instead and drop a level of might or con.

Edited March 7, 2016 by kvaak

[Brimsurfer]

Riposte triggers a full attack (two weapons damage if dual wielding) but if I am wielding only one weapon and shield, then it'll just be my primary attack damage instead of full attack, wouldn't this be like I am compromising half the power of Riposte?

Edited March 7, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[kvaak]

Riposte triggers a full attack (two weapons damage if dual wielding) but if I am wielding only one weapon and shield, then it'll just be my primary attack damage instead of full attack, wouldn't this be like I am compromising half the power of Riposte?

 

It does absolutely nothing if it doesn't trigger in the first place.

 

You could dual wield hatchets or something equally gimmicky but I'd say you're better off using something like a sabre or battleaxe with a shield. Depends on what you have in hand but a rogue critting with Edge of Reason hurts.

 

WM2 also has a shield with bash 3, it's not spectacular but with sneak attack it might do decent damage.

Edited March 7, 2016 by kvaak

[Boeroer]

I really tried to make Riposte work with special builds - it's not worth it. Just keep away.

 

Would be good if it triggered on 20% or 30% of grazes and turned them into misses. But the way it is now it's just not worth spending a precious talent point.

[Jojobobo]

I'm going solo with it currently on POTD, and I have to agree with Boeroer that it's not hugely worth it as it doesn't proc enough and many enemies on POTD won't be missing you. While it's okay, it's better to just get another sneak attack ability IMO.

[Brimsurfer]

I really tried to make Riposte work with special builds - it's not worth it. Just keep away.

 

Would be good if it triggered on 20% or 30% of grazes and turned them into misses. But the way it is now it's just not worth spending a precious talent point.

 

Yea the reason I was sceptical about riposte is that it only triggers on 20% of the misses, which is not a lot, if the chance to trigger could be improved later on in the game then probably it would make sense but right now, I guess it doesn't make sense to devote my whole build to a mechanic that has only 20% chance to trigger only if a melee enemy misses me.....

[Jojobobo]

I will say that tanky rogues however do work. If you run high deflection with shield, get a Retaliate item and run Deep Wounds with mid to high Might then you can fairly easily take out whole groups. It's a lot like Carnage with a smaller AoE given that it's only people directly attacking you - however unlike a barbarian you maintain a high level of defensive capability, your accuracy is naturally reasonable and Deep Wounds gives you a trickle of raw damage to grind enemies down.

 

Riposte does add slightly to this effect, but the amount of enemies missing you on PotD is not high. Deathblows is arguably a better choice, proc'ing easily with Shadowing Beyond and any of the per encounter status attacks, or just an extra per encounter status attack like Smoke Bomb or Withering Strike (assuming you're already picking up Sap, Blinding Strike and Crippling Strike to target the different defenses).

[Boeroer]

 

I really tried to make Riposte work with special builds - it's not worth it. Just keep away.

 

Would be good if it triggered on 20% or 30% of grazes and turned them into misses. But the way it is now it's just not worth spending a precious talent point.

 

Yea the reason I was sceptical about riposte is that it only triggers on 20% of the misses, which is not a lot, if the chance to trigger could be improved later on in the game then probably it would make sense but right now, I guess it doesn't make sense to devote my whole build to a mechanic that has only 20% chance to trigger only if a melee enemy misses me.....

 

Exactly.

 

Tanky rogues are fun. And they do work. But 20% of misses (and it's really hard to boost your deflection that much so that enemies miss all the time) is just lame. With grazes it would be fine. Because a tanky rogue gets grazed a lot.

 

I also tried to trick the system a bit and stacked as much defense against disengagement attacks as I could (good Shield, Cautious Attack, Superior Deflection, Fast Runner, Graceful Retreat, Cape of Withdrawal, Chant "The Fox of the Farmer" and so on). So I had a steallar defense value against disengagement attacks. Then I just took the tanky rogue and ran around a group of enemies to provoke disengagement attacks. They missed a lot - and the enemy mob was like CC'd because they all tried to chase me. But still the amount of Ripostes was so small that I dumped the whole concept. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Boeroer

[kvaak]

 

Tanky rogues are fun. And they do work. But 20% of misses (and it's really hard to boost your deflection that much so that enemies miss all the time) is just lame. With grazes it would be fine. Because a tanky rogue gets grazed a lot.

 

It's not actually that hard. The trick is to boost your deflection so high buffs like Wizard's Double (readily available with potions) never go off. Basically what this guy does. Since you're not solo you can throw in stuff like Crowns for the Faithful plus any number of debuffs.

Edited March 8, 2016 by kvaak

[kvaak]

Okay, so I tried throwing in a riposte rogue. I don't have too much trouble buffing his deflection up to the point where I get plenty of misses, his will/fort saves are fairly weak though and even if those aren't an issue riposte's proc rate is too low to make a difference.

 

A paladin brings much more utility with aura + outworn buckler and fighters have a much better damage/survivability ratio. Other melee classes/chars also get a better mix of the two.

 

This might just work if riposte actually did something but a proc rate of 20% is far too low to justify building a rogue around free counterattacks and if you don't build the character around it you'll never get high enough deflection to constantly get misses on PotD.

 

You also need to (de)buffs so unlike a paladin you can't charge into a group of enemies at the start of combat.

 

The fact hatchet is a bad basetype and there aren't any good artifacts or soulbound ones to compensate doesn't help. Why do hatchets give bonus deflection anyway? Their shafts are typically made of wood, there's no crossguard and you're not going to parry anything with the blade...

Edited March 18, 2016 by kvaak

[Boeroer]

Told you so.

[highlor3]

I coincidentally found this video .

[Heligor]

do riposte works with bashing shield?

i'm trying to build a tanky rogue with high crit chance and badgrad's barricade, but could be a bad idea :D

[MaxQuest]

^ Riposte proc is an instant Full Attack.

So yeah, you should hit with both weapon and the shield (if it has bash property; and Barricade does have it).

Edited March 21, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Jojobobo]

I got to level 15 using Riposte with high Deflection, and it really does suck. When you think you could be having an extra per encounter ability (really you want Hobbled, Withering Strike, Blinding Strike and Sap -> Withering Strike lowers Will which Sap targets, Sap lowers Reflex which Blinding Strike targets, letting you often crit with these abilities and stack their durations for Deathblows, with Hobbling Strike just being good as you can use it twice) or Dirty Fighting or Adept Evasion which is great on tanky rogues or Finishing Blow then you're seeing a situation here where it really is the worst out of the many many good options rogues do have.

[JerekKruger]

The fact hatchet is a bad basetype and there aren't any good artifacts or soulbound ones to compensate doesn't help. Why do hatchets give bonus deflection anyway? Their shafts are typically made of wood, there's no crossguard and you're not going to parry anything with the blade...

 

As far as I can tell it was for balance reasons. All weapons of a particular type (fast one-handed, large one-handed, two-handed) are essentially the same apart from some special property and their damage type. The +5 deflection is just the special property given to the hatchet. Others on this board will argue vehemently that hatchets are excellent defensive weapons, but I really don't understand why they were given this property.

 

If I were redistributing the special properties I'd make the following changes:

 

Daggers: slash/pierce

Hatchets: +0.5 crit multiplier

Clubs: +5 accuracy or perhaps higher interrupt value (say 0.5)

 

Maces: 3 DR reduction or perhaps higher interrupt value (0.75)

Spears: extended reach

Swords: pierce/slash and perhaps +5 deflection bonus (if any weapon is going to have it)

[Infinitron]

Josh Sawyer admits that Riposte isn't good: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3706905&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=813#post457957813

 

Everything gets tuned during development. The problem with Riposte and a few other abilities (IIRC) is that its tuning values are actually part of their script. I.e., designers can't tune them without a programmer. Those bugs tend to be lower priority than many others.