Act 3 difficulty?

[Brimsurfer]

OK so in this campaign, after WM2 release,  I hit level 16 before even starting Act 3, so how does it work out? Even if I up scale the enemies, will it be challenging? Because I found the last parts of Act 2 very very easy, too easy, that I don't see any point in keep playing this campaign, may be I ruined it by completing events of WM2 before ending Act 2............

Edited March 2, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[AndreaColombo]

Haven't gotten there yet, but at level 16 I expect most of Act III to be a breeze even with scaling (scaling ups the challenge level by 33%)

 

If it turns out to be too easy, I think you can "de-level" yourself via console and re-gain those levels by solving Act III quests while having more challenge.

[Brimsurfer]

...............

 

If it turns out to be too easy, I think you can "de-level" yourself via console and re-gain those levels by solving Act III quests while having more challenge.

 

That is kind of aweful 

[Tigranes]

Check this forum on ways to scale XP gain for any future playthroughs. For this one, I guess try losing a couple party members or putting up difficulty if it's not already POTD.

 

It's shocking how badly they screwed up the progression - and it was pretty bad in vanilla as well.

[AndreaColombo]

Frankly, I like the fact that I can hit the cap and still have some content left to enjoy my power. If I only hit the cap before the final fight, the game would basically be over before the real fun began.

 

That said, I like to be challenged when I'm maxed out and the main issue I have with PoE is that difficulty remains low as you progress (but I'll reserve judgment on Act III's scaling until I go through it.)

[Teioh_White]

I agree with liking games that let you hit the max, then let you take a good third of the game or so to use that power. Not so much games that only let you hit the cap right at the end, or worse, force you to go grind or something to get abilities you'll never need.

 

That said, while the scaling helps, it doesn't quite go far enough. Act 3 scaled up when I went that at level 10 was pretty rough in Elmshroud, Dragon fight, and Simoc. (I don't remember anything else in there being tougher.) If I had down WM first, rolled in at 16? Woulda been a joke. So I tend to save WM for last, as WM2 still has some tough fights, even on 16. Of course, the issue there is the whole, 'best gear in the game, but since I saved this for last, I only get to use this to hurt Thaos'.

[Grimo88]

I am in scaled Act 3 now, after completing WM completely (bar Longwatch Falls, saving for later) and Elmshore was still satisfyingly challenging, if not punishing without the right tactics. A certain... um... shall we say nosferatu figure is also very challenging. Will update, if you'd like, on some of the appease the gods quests and how they feel. 

 

This is always the problem with mid-game xpacs. I had the same conundrums with Durlag's, Watcher's Keep and Heart of Winter. When I come back from these adventures in the middle of the game I have no desire to seek out gear or experience in other quests, or its trivialised other content.  I have in my playthrough, for instance, completely cut out levels 6-15 of Od Nua because the dungeons and encounters and loot of WM have simply overshadowed it. I also completely cut out Dyrford before heading to WM at level 7. It is really nice to have options, but I do hope they opt for a ToB-style post-game model in future.

[Brimsurfer]

There is just too much content and the game doesn't keep up with itself, it doesn't scale steadily as player progress.............

 

And hitting level cap when 1/3 of the game is still left, isn't a very good sign. Some people say levelling in this game is fast, which is not true, in PST or BG games, we gained levels at similar pace but those games scaled better with player's progress and had just enough content to roughly match with xp cap.

 

We need higher level cap and better difficulty scaling in this game..........

[AndreaColombo]

I wouldn't want a higher cap, but I'd definitely like to have increased difficulty for completionist runs.

 

Hitting the cap right before the game ends would be rather dissatisfying for me. After working long and hard for that power, only one fight would be left to enjoy it.

Edited March 3, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Brimsurfer]

I wouldn't want a higher cap, but I'd definitely like to have increased difficulty for completionist runs.

 

Hitting the cap right before the game ends would be rather dissatisfying for me. After working long and hard for that power, only one fight would be left to enjoy it.

Yea but I hit the cap when I haven't even started Act 3, i stil lhave some stuff to do before I can start Act 3....

 

I personally won't mind a few more XP levels and higher challenge to match it........

[Primy]

Sadly potd scaled act3 is no challenge anymore if u completed wmp2 (hit lvl 16 before the audience at the duc in defiance bay), for me the ai alone wins every battle, only in the skytemple dragon fight i had to cast crown, devotion buff and defensive mindweb and then let the ai finish.

 

Btw. anyone noticed how strong the ranger pet gets on max level, saganis itumaak just goes berserk mode with 100dmg crits left and right. This on top of twinarrow stormcaller.

[kvaak]

Sadly potd scaled act3 is no challenge anymore if u completed wmp2 (hit lvl 16 before the audience at the duc in defiance bay), for me the ai alone wins every battle, only in the skytemple dragon fight i had to cast crown, devotion buff and defensive mindweb and then let the ai finish.

 

Btw. anyone noticed how strong the ranger pet gets on max level, saganis itumaak just goes berserk mode with 100dmg crits left and right. This on top of twinarrow stormcaller.

 

Itumaak was outcritting Devil with Sneak Attack and Deathblows... with a crossbow. No idea what's up with that.

 

I did act 3 before starting WM2 since I sort of anticipated this (and WM2 gave me a high level warning too). I'm not really sure what's the point of the high-level scaling option if it doesn't actually scale with your level.

[Masterteo89]

I am playing this game for the first time. I'm at the start of act 3 now, but i would like an advice.

 

I guess that if i start WM i will go up to level 16 and so main campaign would be too easy. So i want to play main campaign until almost the end. And this is my first question : how much far can i go in the main campaign?

 

I would like to reach a point where i have only the last boss to kill, so that i can stop doing main quest, play all the WM, and then going again to main quest and kill the last boss. The problem, being my fist gameplay, is that i don't know when to stop playing main quest. I fear that i will reach last boss and end game before i could do the WM.

 

--------------------------------

 

Question number 2 :

 

Last boss, i want him challenging. If i do WM and level up to level 16, last boss will be challenging or i would be too overpowered ?

 

I would hate if the last battle would be simply a " relax on my chair, let the party on auto AI kill the boss "

[AndreaColombo]

1. You can go until all that is left to do is jump into the pit that leads into Sun-in-Shadows. The game will warn you more than once through dialog that jumping in is a point of no return, so don't do it until you want to fight the boss. The stronghold interface also becomes inaccessible once you do.

 

2. Haven't tried yet, but at level 14 it was kind of easy even when scaled up.

[Brimsurfer]

Frankly, I like the fact that I can hit the cap and still have some content left to enjoy my power. If I only hit the cap before the final fight, the game would basically be over before the real fun began.

 

That said, I like to be challenged when I'm maxed out and the main issue I have with PoE is that difficulty remains low as you progress (but I'll reserve judgment on Act III's scaling until I go through it.)

 

I like hitting the cap near the end of the game (say with few hours of gameplay left so that I can enjoy the full spread of my character like you said), but not when more than a quarter of the game is left and I end up steam rolling through challenge-less encounters almost bored to death.......

 

In BG games I always hit the cap, but it always happened in ToB near the end, so I felt satisfied that I will fight the boss at my strongest....

[Masterteo89]

I think i have read enough about this. I get it, in short if you do the WM you will do the rest of the main quest as if it was a joke.

 

I'm level 12 and ready to go to meet the last boss, in what i guess will be a nice fight ( because of balance, me being level 12 and not 16 ).

 

----------------------------------------------

 

I guess Obsidian did a error of judgement here : allowing WM to be played during main quest leads only to a broken balance because main quest enemyes don't scale properly.

 

So, here what i will do :

 

 

1- I'm playing on normal, it's my first time, so i will not broke my first gameplay. My level 12 party will go to meet the last boss now.

 

2- After i beat the game, i will start a new game on hardest difficulty and only then i will play WM. Because scaling won't ruin my game experience because i already fought the last boss and i felt how hard it was supposed to be.

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

On a side note, Obsidian could have simply done like developers did in games when i was younger :

 

expansions are open to play only after you end the main game. So, first you kill the last boss and then instead of credits after end game you are "teleported" to Cad Nua and the attendant opens the WM quest.

 

This way, with a right balance mechanics, your party would be able to play main quest from level 1 to level 12 (the cap). And when you start WM the cap is set to 16, so you play WM and are able to level up while you play.

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

In short, WM as an available mission during main quest and not after main quest, can lead to a broken gameplay experience.

[AndreaColombo]

Continuing after the main plot would have required months of development just for the extra reactivity needed for the game to make sense.

 

Besides, when we were younger expansions were more along the lines of Tales of the Sword Coast, if memory serves. When the games of old ended, they ended.

 

The problem lies in the second half of the game's being too forgiving. It was so already with the base game and simply got worse with TWM, but it's still an issue with how Act III and IV are designed.

[Rosveen]

Besides, when we were younger expansions were more along the lines of Tales of the Sword Coast, if memory serves. When the games of old ended, they ended.

Depends on how old he/she is. When I was a teenager, expansions were done exactly the way they described. The problem is, that was only a few years ago.

 

Seriously though, if you look at the IE games, ToTSC is the odd man out. Throne of Bhaal was designed to continue the main story and Heart of Winter could be played after the main campaign by importing characters. So I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to expect White March to allow the same.

[kvaak]

 

Besides, when we were younger expansions were more along the lines of Tales of the Sword Coast, if memory serves. When the games of old ended, they ended.

Depends on how old he/she is. When I was a teenager, expansions were done exactly the way they described. The problem is, that was only a few years ago.

 

Seriously though, if you look at the IE games, ToTSC is the odd man out. Throne of Bhaal was designed to continue the main story and Heart of Winter could be played after the main campaign by importing characters. So I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to expect White March to allow the same.

 

 

Ultima is probably "the" classic RPG series and it was more TotSC-esque. Ultima VII had a mid-game expansion like TotSC and although Serpent Isle is called technically called Ultima VII: Part Two it's a sequel (or spin-off) for most intents and purposes, with a mid-game expansion of its own.

 

Both types have their pros and cons, as WM demonstrates a mid-game expansion doesn't have to interfere with the main storyline since the base game largely concludes the story of the Watcher (even if it has a somewhat ambiguous and open ending). I think the introduction of microtransactions and DLC has made WM-style expansions/additions more popular during the last decade or so.

 

Personally I prefer the Throne of Bhaal approach over Tales of the Sword Coast one, mid-game expansions often feel glued on top and if you don't want to play through the entire game again you can just pick up and play the expansion right off the bat. Of course if the TotSC approach is done well it greatly increases overall replay value.

 

I guess Watcher's Keep was also available during Shadows of Amn if you had ToB installed but it had little to no plot [integration], it was just a big endgame dungeon for extra loot and challenge. By itself not something I would've picked up ToB for.

Edited March 5, 2016 by kvaak

[anameforobsidian]

 

 

Besides, when we were younger expansions were more along the lines of Tales of the Sword Coast, if memory serves. When the games of old ended, they ended.

Depends on how old he/she is. When I was a teenager, expansions were done exactly the way they described. The problem is, that was only a few years ago.

 

Seriously though, if you look at the IE games, ToTSC is the odd man out. Throne of Bhaal was designed to continue the main story and Heart of Winter could be played after the main campaign by importing characters. So I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to expect White March to allow the same.

 

 

Ultima is probably "the" classic RPG series and it was more TotSC-esque. Ultima VII had a mid-game expansion like TotSC and although Serpent Isle is called technically called Ultima VII: Part Two it's a sequel (or spin-off) for most intents and purposes, with a mid-game expansion of its own.

 

Both types have their pros and cons, as WM demonstrates a mid-game expansion doesn't have to interfere with the main storyline since the base game largely concludes the story of the Watcher (even if it has a somewhat ambiguous and open ending). I think the introduction of microtransactions and DLC has made WM-style expansions/additions more popular during the last decade or so.

 

Personally I prefer the Throne of Bhaal approach over Tales of the Sword Coast one, mid-game expansions often feel glued on top and if you don't want to play through the entire game again you can just pick up and play the expansion right off the bat. Of course if the TotSC approach is done well it greatly increases overall replay value.

 

I guess Watcher's Keep was also available during Shadows of Amn if you had ToB installed but it had little to no plot [integration], it was just a big endgame dungeon for extra loot and challenge. By itself not something I would've picked up ToB for.

 

 

I think it depends on the style of game.  If a game is based on exploration, like BG1 or parts of PE then plug in locations make a lot of sense, because they can strengthen the game.  Pillars of Eternity could have certainly used more wilderness areas, so White March alleviated one of its weaknesses (not enough places to go).  Furthermore, in exploration based games, not seeing and outleveling the content is okay.

 

In games where the focus is closer to the narrative, and your time is spent on sidequests rather than exploration, I think standalone expansions are better.  It's easier to incorporate new places than new characters.  

 

One strength of standalone expansions that hasn't been mentioned is their ability to redefine a series.  Shadowrun: Dragonfall is a great example of this, mediocre release and much better campaign as an expansion.  I think this is natural given that the company has a greater familiarity with the system and toolset.  I'm certainly finding WM much better than the areas around Gilded Vale.

[Rosveen]

Dragonfall is a little different though. I'm not sure if I would even call it an expansion to Returns, it ended up as a standalone game and even before that it was a separate campaign taking place on a different continent. Then again, other games had similar new mini-campaigns as expansions too. Maybe it's the size that makes a difference for me.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Rosveen

[Brimsurfer]

......But the difficulty pattern is broken now, actually there is no difficulty trend or pattern now. You do quests pertaining to WM expansion there is massive spike in difficulty of the game and then you come back to base game area say for example Act 3, the game becomes piss easy.......

 

I mean i am strolling through act 3 most difficult encounters like its a garden walk, I don't even need to use any 'per rest' spells or abilities, I have been using only 'per encounter' abilities since returning from WM......in some cases don't even need use those.

 

I never expected it to be so bad, once I finish this I am moving to XCOM 2, no point in playing it again, act 3 has gotten so damn boring, no challenge whatsoever..

 

People have been telling me to use console to slow down XP, but that's silly imo, and I don't really care, just wanna be done with it......its unbelievable how they didn't pay any attention to difficulty curve in the game.... even the locked chests and traps in WM require higher skill than end game locked chests and traps and the developers knew that WM is mid and mid-late game content, its not end game content, but still they left the end game difficulty to what it was before WM 1 and 2......its just carelessness and lack of devotion honestly.......

Edited March 5, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[wanderon]

 

Besides, when we were younger expansions were more along the lines of Tales of the Sword Coast, if memory serves. When the games of old ended, they ended.

Depends on how old he/she is. When I was a teenager, expansions were done exactly the way they described. The problem is, that was only a few years ago.

 

Seriously though, if you look at the IE games, ToTSC is the odd man out. Throne of Bhaal was designed to continue the main story and Heart of Winter could be played after the main campaign by importing characters. So I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to expect White March to allow the same.

 

 

ToTSC was mostly content they had already developed but could not finish because they were being pushed to hurry the game out the door - hence it was a bit different from the norm.

[Trashos]

I think the root problem is that your power increases too much with every level gained. Not only do you get new abilities (which is fine), but also your derived stats (Health, Accuracy etc) increase by default (which is NOT fine, afaic). This means that you get easily overpowered without doing anything smart ever, and the game plays itself.

 

This is a system that fundamentally caters for the casual gamer (makes it easy for him to succeed), but it is bound to disappoint more serious gamers that are looking for a challenge. Unfortunately, the problem persists in PotD as well.

 

I prefer systems that allow you to customize your character, style, and general strategy, but don't offer you default gifts on level ups. Anyway, what is done is done.

[AndreaColombo]

^ I don't mind that your stats increase at level up. That's actually what traditional level-up does, where by "traditional" I mean "D&D style" (D&D being the most commonly widespread and recognized fantasy RPG system.)

 

The problem this game has is in the massive difference in power level between completionists and non-completionists. Matt516 explained it very well in a thread where he analyzed the XP curve in PoE vs. the XP curve in IE games back in the day. If you balance the game against casual playthroughs in which little more than critical path is done, you can't also balance it against completionist playthroughs that end up 5-6 levels higher and have better equipment.