Defender vs Guardian

[Eyonik]

I'm speccing Eder right now in PotD difficulty. Before 3.0 I read everywhere that Defender + Wary Defender is the way to go. But now Defender gives -5 Deflection and Wary Defender only +5 to all defenses except Deflection... which is not really great. So I'm thinking if Guardian + Hold the Line might be better than Defender + Wary Defender.

Or should I just skip Wary Defender and go for Defender + Hold the Line for +3 Tagets engaged?

 

Defender: +2 Targets engaged, -5 Deflection

Wary Defender: +5 Fortitude, +5 Will, +5 Reflex

 

Guardian Stance: -10 Accuracy to Fighter, +10 Deflection to Fighter and nearby (2m) party members

Hold the Line: +1 Target engaged

Edited February 23, 2016 by Eyonik

[falchen]

I haven't found engagement to be all that usefull, Defender was good because of the deflection bonus. Paladins make better tanks now, with the nerf fighters are better off build for damage, imo.

[Mocker22]

IMO both are totally useless. A fighter will hold engagement by being able to put out at least decent dps. Talents that help with engagement are largely useless imo.If you want a more tanky focused fighter you will still need a good balance of offensive abilities.

[Baron Pampa]

What about the new lvl 7 ability, giving knockdown vs fortitude in every disengagement attack? Doesn't it allow for a defensively oriented, engagement-focused build? Would have checked it myself, but my GPU burned in hell;(

[mazeltov]

IMO the best way to use Defender has always been with a tanky DPS setup, because coupled with high damage you win either way. Either up to three enemy melee mobs get locked down, which is a win, or they Disengage and suffer free big hits, which is also a win.

 

 

new lvl 7 ability, giving knockdown vs fortitude in every disengagement attack?

 

I remember using Eder with a balanced damage/defense setup shortly after release with that unique greatsword which Prones on Crit. It had much the same effect as the new ability you mention. If an enemy Disengaged, not only did they provoke a big 2H hit but very likely suffered several seconds of hard CC as well.

[hilfazer]

Lineholder Fighter is viable now.

[jsaving]

I'm speccing Eder right now in PotD difficulty. Before 3.0 I read everywhere that Defender + Wary Defender is the way to go. But now Defender gives -5 Deflection and Wary Defender only +5 to all defenses except Deflection... which is not really great. So I'm thinking if Guardian + Hold the Line might be better than Defender + Wary Defender.

You have to be really careful when reading undated guide information because what makes sense in this game has changed a lot with each successive patch.  At one time, a tank fighter could accumulate so much deflection that they were essentially invulnerable on normal/hard difficulty, and enemies were so unwilling to disengage that defender was a great talent choice for most fighters.  With 2.0's enemies being much more willing to break engagement, defender no longer helped fighters block enemies from reaching the back-line, plus the -5 to deflection was very noticeable given the general deflection nerfs in 2.0.  If anything I'd say the case for defender + wary defender is even weaker in 3.0 as a couple of the multiclassing feats were buffed to the point where they'd be reasonable additions to a fighter's repertoire. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by jsaving

[Eyonik]

If anything I'd say the case for defender + wary defender is even weaker in 3.0 as a couple of the multiclassing feats were buffed to the point where they'd be reasonable additions to a fighter's repertoire.

Could you tell me please which feats you mean?

[Boeroer]

Lineholder Fighter is viable now.

He's using Wound Binding.  

Also Guardian Stance is pretty useless if you don't like to fight roman turtle style. 2 meters is a really small AoE. 

 

And he doesn't show how it works in action...

Edited February 24, 2016 by Boeroer

[falchen]

Hah, I just noticed fighters constant recovery now has a duration too. Might as well ditch the class now...

[Boeroer]

No, it's great! It doesn't last that long anymore, but the healing is way more powerful now. Just make sure your fights don't last forever and you're good. I build a heavy armored fighter with Constant Recovery, Rapid Recovery, Cloak of the Tireless Defender and a Trollhide Belt and this guy really refuses to die if you combine that with Unbending - even if he's skilled for pure DPS and not deflection. A nice combo of dps and tankyness. You will have to rest a bit more because of health issues -  but if you have a wizard/preist/druid in your party then not more often than before.

[Francis Ironwood]

 

Lineholder Fighter is viable now.

He's using Wound Binding.  

Also Guardian Stance is pretty useless if you don't like to fight roman turtle style. 2 meters is a really small AoE. 

 

And he doesn't show how it works in action...

 

oh god that smiley sums up my thoughts when watching the video. "oh pretty cute idea for a build and the- wait what Wound Binding?!?!?"

[hilfazer]

@Boeroer, Francis Ironwood

Guys, are you trying to say "He's wrong about one thing so he must be wrong about everything else!"? Sorry if i misunderstood You.

 

 

Also what's bad about Wound Binding other than suffering from high intellect?

[Francis Ironwood]

It's a build there's no right or wrong. I think Wound Binding is a really bad talent. It's not needed. Ever. Even on the highest difficulty you can rest when your health goes low without running out of camping supplies and most of the time you're going to rest for spells before health most likely.

[Boeroer]

Exactly - it's a total waste of a talent point. But if you really hate resting it may be ok. It would be good if it healed you completely. Even then I wouldn't take it but it would be more appealing.

 

However - what really bothers me about the video is that it's just theorycrafting without an actual test how this build works in action. I tried to build that exact thing some weeks ago (when there was no prone for disengagement attacks) and it didn't work at all. The mechanics haven't changed since then - and although it sounds nice to have that prone on diseng. attack I really doubt that it's worth to craft a whole build around it. Even if you sum up 5 engagement slots most of the time you won't engage 5 enemies. If you do and two of them leave you there will be the chance to prone them (if they are not immune). First of all you need to hit them, then there's the check against fortitue. Maybe the chances are high - but you just took three to four talent/ability points just to make disengangement attacks viable. I doubt that the outcome is worth the efford - also in terms of micromanagement.

That's why I would have loved to see that build in action. Not because I want to see it fail. It's good if fighters could be build in more different kinds of styles.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Boeroer

[Njall]

 

 

Guardian Stance: -10 Accuracy to Fighter, +10 Deflection to Fighter and nearby (2m) party members

 

 

That'd actually be semi-decent. Or at least, not so terribly bad that you shouldn't even consider it.

Unfortunately, the deflection bonus doesn't apply to the fighter, it only affects his allies (yeah, this modal is strictly worse, and a lot worse, than the 9th level chant nobody uses, ever: it comes with a penalty and doesn't even increase your tank's deflection); it's a losing proposition on both a dps fighter and a tank. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Njall

[Boeroer]

And the range is pretty awful, too (same with Take the Hit ). What is the worst thing about defender is that it doesn't work together with several other good modals a tanky fighter could take. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Boeroer

[Njall]

And the range is pretty awful, too (same with Take the Hit ). What is the worst thing about defender is that it doesn't work together with several other good modals a tanky fighter could take. 

 

Not to mention that defenses generally grant increasing returns, so increasing your squishies' deflection by such a trivial amount isn't even a big deal.

Yeah, it's like they were intentionally shooting for the title of "worst modal of the game, hands down".

Well, congrats, I guess...?

[Francis Ironwood]

The fact that he doesn't show this build in action makes me wonder. How do you use all the engagement he has? This build is going to have what? 5? engagement 1 base + 2 Defender +1 weapon +1 Hold The Line. Can you engage 5 targets at a time? I thought the engagement radius is pretty small so even 3 enemies, one in front of you and 2 to the sides would let enemies just walk past you without ever getting in to engagement range. Do reach weapons have larger engagement radius? That could be better for this build.

[Blades of Vanatar]

If you use say 3-4 Fighters all with Guardian Stance would the bonuses stack. I am thinking Shield Wall here. Does it stack with Pally aura or the cross class Pally ability?

Edited February 25, 2016 by Blades of Vanatar

[Teioh_White]

Heck, Defender doesn't even work with something like Savage Attack, which is just weird. Just as well, Disengagement, while a good idea in theory, just isn't handled very well by the game engine, and can't even work in the limited intended range. Like, you know, having a hard hitting fighter whack everything good that runs by, and not a 0 dps unkillable tank soaking up all the mobs, for example.

 

Just more Fighter talents to toss on the 'underwhelming or useless' pile. Which is where a lot of their crap resides. It's a good thing most mobs aren't the better classes, as those 12 mob pulls would get deadly if it was 12 casters or something.

[Gromnir]

am thinking that the biggest problem with defender is its name.  defender is not a great defensive ability.  that don't make it a bad ability.  the fact that enemy ai has improved/changed to the degree that engaged and enemies will take the disengagement hit to get at your squishies actual increases our dps fighter lethality.  have a dps tank or off-tank forgo a shield  and instead give him a big and vicious 2-handed weapon. is likely better for an off-tank to hold the flanks, but you can build a tank that survives not 'cause o' deflection, but 'cause o' enormous endurance/health and regenerative qualities.  use defender and engagement not as a defensive quality to hold enemies in place, but to punish those that predictably do not. 

 

the fact that defender were such a no-brainer were not a good thing.  bad balance.  defender is no longer a no-brainer, but the name is misleading. defender is a fighter ability that gots situational, but genuine, offensive usefulness.  rename it "punisher" and less folks would be confused.  heck, rename and change icon, but leave everything else the same and we bet folks would get more use from the ability.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 25, 2016 by Gromnir

[KDubya]

am thinking that the biggest problem with defender is its name.  defender is not a great defensive ability.  that don't make it a bad ability.  the fact that enemy ai has improved/changed to the degree that engaged and enemies will take the disengagement hit to get at your squishies actual increases our dps fighter lethality.  have a dps tank or off-tank forgo a shield  and instead give him a big and vicious 2-handed weapon. is likely better for an off-tank to hold the flanks, but you can build a tank that survives not 'cause o' deflection, but 'cause o' enormous endurance/health and regenerative qualities.  use defender and engagement not as a defensive quality to hold enemies in place, but to punish those that predictably do not. 

 

the fact that defender were such a no-brainer were not a good thing.  bad balance.  defender is no longer a no-brainer, but the name is misleading. defender is a fighter ability that gots situational, but genuine, offensive usefulness.  rename it "punisher" and less folks would be confused.  heck, rename and change icon, but leave everything else the same and we bet folks would get more use from the ability.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Defender by any name would be a bad ability. +2 engagement for -5 deflection is just a terrible return on investment.

 

Now if they combined the new prone attack on disengagement with Defender or Wary Defender then you'd have something interesting that'd open up new possibilities.

[boffmoffet]

I have been using a tanky Eder with defender, hold the line, +1 engagement weapon, and the new talent that knocks people on their butts. Thought I would give it a try and I think its a blast to play. I gave him decent stealth which any POE player knows can result in a few free disengagements at the top of combat. Its not as supremely effective as stacking other tanky abilities, but its damn fun.

[MunoValente]

My biggest issue with Defender is that is doesn't stack with bunch of other good modals for fighters and there doesn't seem to be any good reason for this. This goes along with the general problem of it being difficult to tell which modals stack and which don't.