3.0 Dual Wielding Cipher?

[VahnXIII]

Hello everyone,

 

At release, it was viable to have a Cipher dual wielding stilletos or sabres. In fact, if you look at the Zealot Fenix build in http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=416939844 , it shows a build I had in mind.

 

However, 3.0 is now released and there have been many changes across the board.

 

Has anyone created a viable dual-wielding build for the Cipher class? If so, can you please share?

 

Thank you in advance!

[DreamWayfarer]

I generaly use a balanced stat spread(the steam guide puts way too much value on minmaxing anyway), investing more or less equaly into INT, PER and DEX, perhaps giving a preference to DEX, and keeping other stats between 10 and 8.

 

You don't need MIG that much for your weapons because it only stacks additively with the bonus damage from Soul Whip. Yes, you won't deal much damage with your powers, but focusing on CC and debuffs is easy on a cipher, and will help you get away with average CON and RES and less tanky base stats.

[VahnXIII]

I generaly use a balanced stat spread(the steam guide puts way too much value on minmaxing anyway), investing more or less equaly into INT, PER and DEX, perhaps giving a preference to DEX, and keeping other stats between 10 and 8.

 

You don't need MIG that much for your weapons because it only stacks additively with the bonus damage from Soul Whip. Yes, you won't deal much damage with your powers, but focusing on CC and debuffs is easy on a cipher, and will help you get away with average CON and RES and less tanky base stats.

Good to hear that at least someone is playing this type of build.

 

To expand on this, could you elaborate on how you built your stats, which weapons/armor you focused on and also your play style?

 

It may be premature, but I'm looking at building a cipher that dual wields stilletos or sabers with a blunderbuss/pistol as a ranged backup. To have quick casting/attack speed I would wear padded armor. For playstyle, I would focus on casting mental binding then hacking away with the dual blades.

 

Later, I would love to cast Defensive Mindweb + Reaping Knives and go to town. Not sure how that would play out.

 

Stealth is also something that would be important for this build. Nothing like casting a charm spell out of stealth to get fights going in the right direction.

 

Thank you in advance for your input!

[Wolken3156]

I'd probably recommend this:

Race: Hearth Orlan (Any race can work, though Hearth Orlans are a good melee race in general.)

Background: Old Valia - Drifter (This gets Stealth and Mechanics bonus)

MIG 14

CON 8

DEX 15

PER 15

INT 18

RES 8

 

Talents:

Biting Whip

Draining Whip

Weapon Focus: Ruffian

Two Weapon Style

Vulnerable Attack

Apprentice's Sneak Attack

Savage Attack

Outlander's Frenzy

 

You can swap any of the last three talents with Greater Focus if you wanted, if you're willing to respec later, I strongly suggest using it as one of your early talents. Quick Switch is also another viable option, since you could open up with a Blunderbuss shot to generate the focus needed for your buffs than swap over to your melee weapons, though there is a belt that can emulate this talent.

[DreamWayfarer]

Good to hear that at least someone is playing this type of build.

 

To expand on this, could you elaborate on how you built your stats, which weapons/armor you focused on and also your play style?

 

Well, I am a serial re-roller, so I can't comment on good uniques or the subtleties of high level skills. On armor, I generaly go for something a bit heavier than padded. Hide armor is what I generaly feel confortable with, for a melee char. And since dual-wielding has a naturaly shorter recovery period, armor penalty is not felt as heavily. For weapons, I generaly either use pike+arquebus or sabres+pistol, depending on my party.

 

It may be premature, but I'm looking at building a cipher that dual wields stilletos or sabers with a blunderbuss/pistol as a ranged backup.

I generaly use guns as openers instead if a backup proper, but if you want to have slightly greater flexibility, I would suggest sabres and pistol, because the other two weapons require either penetrating shot or vulnerable attack. With a free talent slot, you can grab Gunner so you are less gimped if you are forced into ranged.

 

Later, I would love to cast Defensive Mindweb + Reaping Knives and go to town. Not sure how that would play out.

 

I thought Reaping Knifes summoned a weapon for an ally. So unless you wish to have a multi-cipher madness (which sounds awesome), it would be something to allow youbto cast without stoping to attack, which would be more useful for a Cipher focused on dealing damage with spells, although with high DEX, INT and PER, less than awesome MIG doens't matter that much if a barbarian is giving you infinite focus to spam to your heart's desire.

[VahnXIII]

I'd probably recommend this:

Race: Hearth Orlan (Any race can work, though Hearth Orlans are a good melee race in general.)

Background: Old Valia - Drifter (This gets Stealth and Mechanics bonus)

MIG 14

CON 8

DEX 15

PER 15

INT 18

RES 8

 

Talents:

Biting Whip

Draining Whip

Weapon Focus: Ruffian

Two Weapon Style

Vulnerable Attack

Apprentice's Sneak Attack

Savage Attack

Outlander's Frenzy

 

You can swap any of the last three talents with Greater Focus if you wanted, if you're willing to respec later, I strongly suggest using it as one of your early talents. Quick Switch is also another viable option, since you could open up with a Blunderbuss shot to generate the focus needed for your buffs than swap over to your melee weapons, though there is a belt that can emulate this talent.

Thank you very much for this! I was thinking along the same lines but just wasn't sure. Now that I think of it, it makes sense to open with a gun shot - cast a buff or disabling spell  - switch to melee and go to town. That is of course if I'm not trying to stealth in and open with a charm spell to get things going.

 

 

 

Good to hear that at least someone is playing this type of build.

 

To expand on this, could you elaborate on how you built your stats, which weapons/armor you focused on and also your play style?

Well, I am a serial re-roller, so I can't comment on good uniques or the subtleties of high level skills. On armor, I generaly go for something a bit heavier than padded. Hide armor is what I generaly feel confortable with, for a melee char. And since dual-wielding has a naturaly shorter recovery period, armor penalty is not felt as heavily. For weapons, I generaly either use pike+arquebus or sabres+pistol, depending on my party.

 

It may be premature, but I'm looking at building a cipher that dual wields stilletos or sabers with a blunderbuss/pistol as a ranged backup.

I generaly use guns as openers instead if a backup proper, but if you want to have slightly greater flexibility, I would suggest sabres and pistol, because the other two weapons require either penetrating shot or vulnerable attack. With a free talent slot, you can grab Gunner so you are less gimped if you are forced into ranged.

 

Later, I would love to cast Defensive Mindweb + Reaping Knives and go to town. Not sure how that would play out.

I thought Reaping Knifes summoned a weapon for an ally. So unless you wish to have a multi-cipher madness (which sounds awesome), it would be something to allow youbto cast without stoping to attack, which would be more useful for a Cipher focused on dealing damage with spells, although with high DEX, INT and PER, less than awesome MIG doens't matter that much if a barbarian is giving you infinite focus to spam to your heart's desire.

 

 

I didn't realize you could only give allies the Reaping Knives. That kind of stinks. Wizards get 3 types of summon weapons (2 staves and 1 wand I believe). Kind of takes a way from my vision of my character. At least the Defensive Mindweb should apply though I'm not sure at what level that power will be available. 

 

Either way, I appreciate the input! Please keep it coming for myself as well as other players looking into dual-wielding Cipher builds for 3.0.

 

Cheers!

[Boeroer]

It doesn't stink. Reaping Knives generate focus for you - so you can get focus while you cast. That's pretty awesome! You can still dual wield yourself of course. Or maybe you build another cipher and you two cast Reaping Knives on each other. Don't know what this will do, but sounds fun.  

[VahnXIII]

It doesn't stink. Reaping Knives generate focus for you - so you can get focus while you cast. That's pretty awesome! You can still dual wield yourself of course. Or maybe you build another cipher and you two cast Reaping Knives on each other. Don't know what this will do, but sounds fun.

Haha, it is definitely something I'll be trying out. Not sure why I'm obsessed with the dual-wielding idea. Guess it's always something I liked since I started gaming many years ago. This type of build reminds me of my DW Fighter/Mage from the Baldur's Gate series. It was a ton of fun to play.

 

From an RP perspective, I'm attempting to build a swashbuckling Sherlock Holmes type of character. Cipher/Investigator for hire that tends to get into troublesome situations. Both spells and blades come in handy at those moments.

 

I'll be giving this a try and will keep this thread updated with my findings. Let's keep it going!

 

Thank you,

[NerdCommando]

At release, it was viable to have a Cipher dual wielding stilletos or sabres. In fact, if you look at the Zealot Fenix build in http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=416939844 , it shows a build I had in mind.

 

However, 3.0 is now released and there have been many changes across the board.

 

The changes aren't that big, actually, so the build should work rather well. The only thing is that most of the 4 & 5 level powers are quite worthless now so you'll never cast them. And pain link is no longer free. Otherwise, the build got immensely buffed - psychovampiric provides much more survivability (which was the main thing that the melee cipher lacked), amplified thrust is insanely broken atm (will sometimes get fixed, I guess) and you can even experiment with the outlander's rage in the late game.

[Boeroer]

Outlander's Frenzy is essential if you want to reach 0 recovery with your dual wielding cipher (without consumables). When you get Time Parasite you may want to retrain - but I don't know if it's worth the costs. Amplified Thrust and Pain Link can only be cast onto allies, not yourself. But nothing stops you from having two ciphers and cast that on each other. It's a good setup (also with the beams and Tactical Meld). A nice combo is having two hearth orlan ciphers, skilled for critical hits with marking weapons who always attack the same target. One can be ranged, the other melee - or both melee, doesn't matter. With Tactical Meld and Marking they will give each other +50 ACC while also converting 10% of hits into crits (and maybe also flank for another -10 deflection). You can give one og them Aspirant's Mark (-8 defl., -8 reflex). That's also great for the beams (which target reflex). Cladhaliath with Stun on crit and marking (+10 ACC to partner) plus the Vile Loner's Lance (-5 defenses on hit and very long interrupt) is great. The other guy could use the Blade of the Endless Paths or Shame or Glory & Sura's Supper Plate or dual wielding with another sword or an axe (+0.5 crit damage, We Toki is nice). Most of these weapons come really early. And I don't even know which awesomeness awaits you in WMII (soulbound stuff hoorray).

However, this way the spear guy gets +5(spears) +5(disorienting) +10(marking from buddy) +10(flanked) +8(Aspirant's Mark) +20(Tactial Meld) +8 (Exceptional Gear) = +66 ACC and 10% hit to crit conversion. With durgan refinement it gets even better of course.

The Blade of the Endless Paths guy will get nearly the same bonuses. With Shame or Glory a bit less and more critical damage while also prone on crit (We Toki). But stun suppress prone, so maybe you want Cladhaliath to do +4 ACC instead o stun.

Then maybe you want to give one of them Gallant's Focus for another +4 ACC? Weapon Focus also can be put on top (+6)

So you could end up with ~80 ACC for your two ciphers and it would mostly be passive. You'd only have to cast Aspirant's Mark and Tactical Meld. Even without Tactical Meld it's still +60. Not to mention all the CC spells they could cast in order to lower defenses further. Crits will be near 100% if you fight against enemies of your level. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Oh - I forgot: If you want 12 more ACC on top for the total ACC overkill go for one-handed.  

[VahnXIII]

Circling back. Using a build similar to Wolken's above, and I can say this build is extremely viable.

 

Currently using sabres and a pistol/blunderbuss backup weapon set. Padded armor has been working just fine - fast action speed and take a hit or two. 

 

As Boeroer suggested, I play this build a little more rogue-like than anything else. By no means am I rushing to the front lines. It's important to be constantly aware of how you're positioned in relation to your companions as you use them for many spells. 

 

For encounters, I typically start with amplified thrust (after starting with 20 focus). This generates focus (probably a bug still). At that point I'll either cast a mass CC spell if companions are in trouble or find creative ways to kill targets. Once I'm low on focus, I'll take two swings with my blades and start the process over. Of course if things are looking hairy on the front line, I'll switch over to my firearm to get a spike in focus gain.

 

This build has been a ton of fun so far. Weaving in and out of the fray casting spells, using crowd control, buffing and swashbuckling has been a blast. Exactly what I was looking for in a PC build.

 

Cheers!

[Stasis_Sword]

VahnXIII I'm glad to hear it's going well. I had a similar character in mind I've been wanting to start. Do you mind a few questions?

 

1). Did you go with Wolken3156's stat distribution and talents or something else?

 

2). What did you do for skills (trying to figure out how to balance mechanics with other skills)?

 

3). What is your current party makeup and how are you managing aggro?

 

4). Any other comments/advice?

Edited March 2, 2016 by Stasis_Sword

[VahnXIII]

VahnXIII I'm glad to hear it's going well. I had a similar character in mind I've been wanting to start. Do you mind a few questions?

 

1). Did you go with Wolken3156's stat distribution and talents or something else?

 

2). What did you do for skills (trying to figure out how to balance mechanics with other skills)?

 

3). What is your current party makeup and how are you managing aggro?

 

4). Any other comments/advice?

1. Yes. I also try to use items that are +Might and +Dexterity for more power and action speed.

2. Focus on mechanics / stealth with a few points sprinkled in athletics and survival. Mainly mechanics and stealth though.

3. Myself, Aloth, Eder, Durance, Kana and Sagani. Eder and Kana tank and Sagani's fox (Itumaak) is a DPS/offtank. Aloth, Durance cast spells/heal while Sagani does her ranger thing. My PC casts spells then dives into the fray. If things are bad, I switch to my ranged weapon. Usually a single shot and an amplified thrust get my focus back up.

4. Right now, you can use Amplified Thrust to generate focus. It is a level 2 Cipher spell that requires 20 focus to use. The cipher will basically cast an energy ray of some sort at your companion. It then bounces off of your companion and hits a nearby enemy. The damage is huge and it also generates focus. There are many times you can simply spam this one spell until there are no more enemies left. However, this isn't fun and it doesn't help other companions that may be in trouble, so I'll typically open with amplified thrust, cast CC spells if needed and return to killing things however I want.

 

I also recommend using sabres. Stilletos are another good option. The reason I like sabres is due to the raw damage and crit damage they can put out. Ciphers not only generate focus based on how many hits you get in, but also on the magnitude of the damage done. Sabres do a lot of damage especially when enchanted with secondary damage types. Couple this with Ruffian weapon specialization, two weapon fighting and vulnerable attack and you have a heavy hitter that will hit often. End result is excellent focus replenishment with a couple swings of your blades. After a couple of swings, I dive right back in to my arsenal of spells.

 

Cipher doesn't have to be your mechanics-focused character. I sacrificed lore for mechanics/stealth mainly for RP reasons. My PC is a traveling cipher that works as an item-finder or detective for hire. Of course this calls for a good level of subterfuge and the ability to get into places you're not supposed to. The blades/spells are mainly for when he runs into trouble....which tends to happen more often than not...

 

Anyways, hopes this helps a bit. I'm by no means a Boeroer or other master of Pillars.