Time Person of the Year : Angela Merkel

[Guard Dog]

 

We have to live life as it is, not as it should be after all.

 

If humanity collectively believed that, we'd still be living in caves, you do realize that, right?

 

I'd say it's because we don't believe this that we are not.

[Darkpriest]

 

 

We have to live life as it is, not as it should be after all.

 

If humanity collectively believed that, we'd still be living in caves, you do realize that, right?

 

I'd say it's because we don't believe this that we are not.

 

 

yeah, if noone would think that he can get a real advantage and better living standard for himself and his dearest ones, we would still be in caves. it is the competitive advantage and desire to improve our own fate primarly, what drove us as humanity forward. Sure, some civilizations died in the process, but overall they simply were not fit enough to compete for the resources that would allow them to grow.

 

What is the drive, when you know, that  no matter what you do, everyone will have the same. why work then and not just sit and enjoy doing nothing, while others will work for you?

Edited December 10, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Guard Dog]

 

As I have posted before I would not trade the life of a single American citizen if it would save every man woman and child in Syria. 

 

What if it would only save the ones deemed "good" by your personal moral metrics?

 

Bartimaeus & Malc have answered as well as I could have. Although there are people in the world who wish ill on their fellow humans, that is not the norm. However, when the collective good of "us" is in conflict with "them", us wins every time. Would you help a stranger at the expense of a family member? Just as an example.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

For whom?

Little Timmy who wants his third yacht for Christmas.

Listen here prole, that yacht is pure freedom. You thank your employer you have a damn job or you can starve. Timmy is the future of the world and being bailed out of his terrible decisions while enjoying uncritical support is training for his future. Get on your knees and thank Rothbard he hasn't decided your speech is breaking the NAP or by the free market he will rain his righteous vengeance on you.

[Malcador]

 

We have to live life as it is, not as it should be after all.

 

If humanity collectively believed that, we'd still be living in caves, you do realize that, right?

 

True, but denying the fact that jobs, living spaces, money, etc. are finite isn't going to get you far. Hard to prevent people from leveraging any advantage they have (proper or not, doubt we will ever all be saints), so it won't be really 'fair'. In terms of making it fair for starting points, I guess you could drag up the bottom ranks, so to speak - have to reprogram attitudes so that's not easy to implement.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Malcador

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

For whom?

 

Little Timmy who wants his third yacht for Christmas.

 

 

That's a sacrifice I feel willing to accept.

 

 

yeah, if noone would thing that he can get a real advantage and better living standard for himself and his nearest ones, we would still be in caves. it is the competitive advantage and desire to improve our own fate primarly, what drove us as humanity forward. 

 

 

 

[citation needed]

 

 

Sure, some civilizations died in the process, but overall they simply were not fit enough to compete for the resources that would allow them to grow.

 

So what, the death of a loved one is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic?

[Darkpriest]

 

 

For whom?

 

Little Timmy who wants his third yacht for Christmas.

 

 

That's a sacrifice I feel willing to accept.

 

 

yeah, if noone would thing that he can get a real advantage and better living standard for himself and his nearest ones, we would still be in caves. it is the competitive advantage and desire to improve our own fate primarly, what drove us as humanity forward. 

 

 

 

[citation needed]

 

 

Sure, some civilizations died in the process, but overall they simply were not fit enough to compete for the resources that would allow them to grow.

 

So what, the death of a loved one is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic?

 

 

Pretty much. Why should I care for others? Do they care for me and my wellbeing, will they sustain my standrad of life for the ones I care about?

 

Do you feel equally bad for the ones that die in some car accident on the other side of the world, and for example your mother, who would die in such an accident? Do you have the same emotional ties?

 

I do not need to quote anything to prove my point, history does that well enough.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Darkpriest

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

We have to live life as it is, not as it should be after all.

 

If humanity collectively believed that, we'd still be living in caves, you do realize that, right?

 

True, but denying the fact that jobs, living spaces, money, etc. are finite isn't going to get you far. Hard to prevent people from leveraging any advantage they have (proper or not, doubt we will ever all be saints), so it won't be really 'fair'. In terms of making it fair for starting points, I guess you could drag up the bottom ranks, so to speak - have to reprogram attitudes so that's not easy to implement.

 

 

I do find it weird that people here seem to be alright with the idea of gradual progression for their loved ones (a generation builds something upon which the next generation can build more etc. ad infinitum) but can't seem to be willing to apply the same principle to a fair society. Yeah, sure, we can't build a fair society, but we can build a progressively fairer one. You don't stop trying to better the lot of your children just because they won't be millionaires in your lifetime, do you?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Do you feel equally bad for the ones that die in some car accident on the other side of the world, and for example your mother, who would die in such an accident? 

 

No, but I also don't think my mother dying in a car accident is objectively worse than all other people dying in similar accidents put together.

[Malcador]

I do find it weird that people here seem to be alright with the idea of gradual progression for their loved ones (a generation builds something upon which the next generation can build more etc. ad infinitum) but can't seem to be willing to apply the same principle to a fair society. Yeah, sure, we can't build a fair society, but we can build a progressively fairer one. You don't stop trying to better the lot of your children just because they won't be millionaires in your lifetime, do you?

Care for your own before everyone else, it's a reasonable thing to do - most of the time people care more about their blood relations than some dude on the street Hazarding a guess, also people hate having to mind others or in some way feel like they are being punished for getting ahead. How accurate those are when it comes to making society fair, depends on circumstance and implementation.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Hazarding a guess, also people hate having to mind others or in some way feel like they are being punished for getting ahead. 

 

I've always found that mindset eminently weird, given that the fact they could get ahead had just as much to do with the society around them than with their individual effort, so a reluctance to give something back to that society always struck me as extremely petty and small-minded.

 

(Yes, I do pay taxes, thank you very much.)

Edited December 11, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Malcador]

Well, generally I've no issue with paying taxes - as long as I can see me getting something out of it rather than it being pissed away to enrich some civil servant's life. Which is the hard sell, depending on where you are in the world your view of the government may be more unfriendly than others, right ?

 

Damn it, missed a chance to quote Peace Sells

Edited December 11, 2015 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

 

I do find it weird that people here seem to be alright with the idea of gradual progression for their loved ones (a generation builds something upon which the next generation can build more etc. ad infinitum) but can't seem to be willing to apply the same principle to a fair society. Yeah, sure, we can't build a fair society, but we can build a progressively fairer one. You don't stop trying to better the lot of your children just because they won't be millionaires in your lifetime, do you?

Care for your own before everyone else, it's a reasonable thing to do - most of the time people care more about their blood relations than some dude on the street Hazarding a guess, also people hate having to mind others or in some way feel like they are being punished for getting ahead. How accurate those are when it comes to making society fair, depends on circumstance and implementation.

 

Also I understand where alum is coming from....he is right if we were looking at this whole refugee crisis in an equatable " society " perspective

 

But we not for two main reasons IMO

• None of the countries in the ME would welcome Hungarian or Polish ...or any other European country's refugees so lets not feel there is precedent 
• There are certain ME countries that haven't allowed a single Syrian refugee in yet now there is this expectation that the EU must just be welcoming

 

So in summary its okay to not want thousands of Syrians coming to immigrate to your country 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

So in summary its okay to not want thousands of Syrians coming to immigrate to your country 

 

 

Did I say it isn't?

[Malcador]

Just as long as those peksy Assyrians don't try to sneak in with them.

[BruceVC]

 

 

So in summary its okay to not want thousands of Syrians coming to immigrate to your country 

 

 

Did I say it isn't?

 

Yes but Dark's whole perspective is shaped by this and that original post he made about his family was part of his point as he was adding context 

 

And you challenged his notion of fathers\grandfathers and there contribution ...yet that wasn't really his point 

[Wrath of Dagon]

https://twitter.com/jimgeraghty/status/674593208295403520

 

Edit: It's like those Nobel peace prizes Carter, Al Gore and Obola got for not being George W. Bush, this one is an award for not being Donald Trump.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Wrath of Dagon

[BruceVC]

https://twitter.com/jimgeraghty/status/674593208295403520

 

Edit: It's like those Nobel peace prizes Carter, Al Gore and Obola got for not being George W. Bush, this one is an award for not being Donald Trump.

WOD you must realize that people are unfairly critical of Merkel...what is your view of her?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Just like our own political establishment, I consider her a traitor to her country.

[BruceVC]

Just like our own political establishment, I consider her a traitor to her country.

Okay, this is interesting. Please tell me why you feel that way about her ?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Because she's destoying her own people by flooding them with foreigners from a different culture who are unlikely to ever assimilate, not to mention all the immediate problems they are causing as per links GD posted earlier. 

[BruceVC]

Because she's destoying her own people by flooding them with foreigners from a different culture who are unlikely to ever assimilate, not to mention all the immediate problems they are causing as per links GD posted earlier. 

WOD, you are an intelligent guy so please consider what I am saying

 

Germany has 81 million people, has survived 2 world wars, has had  its country carved up and was reviled for years due to Nazism and yet still managed to rebuild its economy and become the most powerful economy in Europe and a foundation of the EU

 

Now do you really think that somehow 2 million despondent, broken, indigent and country less Syrians are going to somehow destroy Germany? So what if they don't assimilate ...then they go home once the war is over 

[Wrath of Dagon]

Refugees in Western countries never go home. 2 million is just a starter, there are 10's of millions in the world, and Germany has put out a welcome mat thanks to Merkel. As I said, huge problems now, fertile grounds for terrorist and criminal recruitment later, seed of an Islamist caliphate once they start reproducing at much faster rate than the natives.

 

Edit: Look at the huge problems France is having with its immigrants. Do you not remember how they were rioting and burning French cities? Did you not see what happened in Paris? Do you not realize what a huge portion of French crime they represent?

Edited December 11, 2015 by Wrath of Dagon

[BruceVC]

Refugees in Western countries never go home. 2 million is just a starter, there are 10's of millions in the world, and Germany has put out a welcome mat thanks to Merkel. As I said, huge problems now, fertile grounds for terrorist and criminal recruitment later, seed of an Islamist caliphate once they start reproducing at much faster rate than the natives.

 

Edit: Look at the huge problems France is having with its immigrants. Do you not remember how they were rioting and burning French cities? Did you not see what happened in Paris? Do you not realize what a huge portion of French crime they represent?

WOD ...where did you read that Germany was letting in another 10 million refugees?

 

They wont be letting in more than 2 million to Germany....

 

And France is a completely different story, they have a real problem but its unique to France. France has been letting in French Muslims to France from there colonies since the 1960's but back in those days the French understandably didn't understand the importance of integration ....so the immigrants have been living in these ghettos ...on social grants but not feeling part of French culture. So naturally extremism would be more common there

 

Germany is NOTHING  like France 

[Darkpriest]

Bruce, first of all, you need to look at the population of a given country in concjunction with its demographic structure.

 

Let's take an assumption that there is around 25mln native EU Germans in the age bracket of 20-40 (reproduction bracket) - suddenly a yearly influx of 600k-800k people for 3 years into that bracket (because immigrants are mostly people in that age group) is not that small.

 

In last two years there was what, around 300-400k annually, this year was over 800k and next year is estimated to be around 1mln, so that would be an influx of over 2.5mln people into that bracker, that's over 10% of that population group.

 

(EDIT: Numbers above generous compared to what extrapolation of the below graph would lead to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media/File:Pyramide_Allemagne.PNG)

 

Now add to that that their birth giving cycle is usually 5-6 years shorter than EU (because we'd rather have more time for ourselves before commiting to parenthood - and we have increasing rates of 30+ singles) and the fact that they have between 1 to 2 kids more per average family, then you start to get into dangerous areas.

 

This amount maybe does not look scary in our current population structure, but in 80-100 years, it will be completely changed to the point where you will have over 30% of total population being either directly from ME and NA or 1st and 2nd generation of today's immigrants.

 

Looking how those cultures failed to assimilate previously, when in smaller yearly influx, it will lead to more tensions or outright losing control over certain areas of your country. Additionally that immigrant demographics is usually located in dense urban areas, so the ration in large cities will be even higher in their favor.

 

If they would be culutrally compatibile and wanted to assimilate, then there would be no issue at all, but they are not, and as our past experiences shown, they will create their own districts, etc. and will live in accordance to their culutre and laws, with a lot of disregard for local customs and even the local country wide law.

 

You need to stop looking at events that will have on going future consequences through the short cut-off of near future (i.e. 2-3 years). Once you set a porcess on, you will have harder time with each passing year to stop it.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Darkpriest