Has anyone tested the Attack Speed strategy?

[AlexDeLarge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzaJa4rRlPU  Basically, from what i understood, the gist of it is, you stack as much attack speed as possible while also not wearing armor or lowering it's recovery time to 0. At +60% attack speed equipping just a 1 handed weapon, yields as much benefit as having dual weapons. Pretty sick. However, at full 100% attack speed, you actually deal 200% more damage. Very OP stuff if it's legit.

 

Would love to hear some expert opinions on the matter.

Edited December 6, 2015 by AlexDeLarge

[Heijoushin]

Sure, it's a viable strategy, but you pay for that speed with the low armour.

 

Fast attack speed is nice for cleaning up mobs, but when you fight someone really tough, I prefer having some plate mail between me and the bad guys.

[AlexDeLarge]

The guy who made the video addresses this as well. By the time you fight the really big threatening guys, they deal 50+ damage, so 15 armor reduction doesn't really do much for you (and you can still get armor sets with around 9-10 DR and 0 recovery). However, you kill them twice as fast, so you suffer much less than you would in a prolonged fight. There's also a 2nd video in which he explains how shields are actually super viable with this strategy. Because you can enchant them with Durgan Steel to virtually nullify Vulnerable Attack penalty, while also giving you a ton of deflection and reflex. Sure, you lose some accuracy but the benefits far outweigh the cost.

[Boeroer]

Have a look at Fulmineo Prondroni again.  

High attack speed is very nice if you can stack DR bypass also. It#S like a flat damage bonus instead of +x% and works better the faster you get. So, things like rending of Ryona's Vambraces are great with high attack speed.

[AlexDeLarge]

Ok, but you advocate using dual weapons for that. According to this video, a 1 hander does the job better. Worth testing imo.

[PrimeJunta]

I figure it depends on the Deflection you're attacking. The extra ACC you get from a single one-hander may make the difference between grazing and hitting, in which case it's better.

 

OTOH if your ACC is comfortably above DEFL, dual-wielding is going to better. On the other hand, in that case you probably won't have much trouble dispatching it anyway.

 

And then there's Interrupt of course. A dual-rapier-wielding unarmored Scaramouche ought to Interrupt like a boss, which would make up for the lower damage. And for the tougher enemies, there's always maces... surprising versatility with the Noble WF actually, especially when you take into consideration the quantity of good rapiers available relatively early in the game.

[Agone]

I figure it depends on the Deflection you're attacking. The extra ACC you get from a single one-hander may make the difference between grazing and hitting, in which case it's better.

 

OTOH if your ACC is comfortably above DEFL, dual-wielding is going to better. On the other hand, in that case you probably won't have much trouble dispatching it anyway.

 

And then there's Interrupt of course. A dual-rapier-wielding unarmored Scaramouche ought to Interrupt like a boss, which would make up for the lower damage. And for the tougher enemies, there's always maces... surprising versatility with the Noble WF actually, especially when you take into consideration the quantity of good rapiers available relatively early in the game.

 

That is not the point of his post:

 

The difference in attack speed between single weapon and dual weapon comes from the difference in recovery. If you stack enough attack speed the recovery is 0 making dual wield strictly worse than single wield or shield.

[limaxophobiacq]

I think I'm going to try this on a barbarian with a draining weapon.

 

Gambeson (+50%) plus Rage (+33%) plus Durgan (+15%) minus armor penalty (-4% with Durgan Enhacement on shield) would get you to +94% which would be almost 3x actual attack speed if I understand this correctly. Using Purgatory for maximum damage and healing.

Edited December 6, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[mosspit]

Indeed interesting and a tad unconventional. The thought of using with a single hand on-crit cc weapon is quite attractive.

[AndreaColombo]

Lima - gambeson doesn't stack with rage.

 

Check out my Lady of Pain build. I could get 15-frame recovery wearing plate and using Vulnerable Attack with a variant. Give up on the latter and/or wear lighter armour and bam - no recovery with a 2-hander.

[Boeroer]

That's the reason why I chose dual wielding. Not all +x% attack speed mods stack. Two Weapon Style does. It's the only way to stack nearly 100% attack speed bonus without the usage of spells, potions and so on. Of course, if you can reach 100% with a single weapon with shield it's better overall since your non existent recov. time nullyfies the difference while you have better defense. The question is: can you reach 100% without the +20% from two weapon style? I mean without consumables and stuff which is tedious.

 

I don't say it's better - I'm just arguing from the viewpoint of "stacking as much att. speed as possible without consuming stuff or get buffed by others".

Edited December 6, 2015 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

^ off the top of my mind, you can be naked, stack 35% speed from a durgan-refined Speed weapon, and pump DEX to slash the remaining recovery time almost in half.

 

That's as fast as you can get without consumables, which is pretty fast but not enough to do away with recovery altogether.

 

With a Monk you get another 25% from Lightning Strikes; with a Barbarian, 33% from rage. That might be enough to remove the recovery bar but it would warrant testing which I can't do as I'm out of town.

[Boeroer]

Yes, but how about Swift Aim (+20), dual wielding (+20) and two speed enchanted weapons with durgan steel (+35). You could add Gauntlets of Swift Action for another 15% if you ever find them. That would be "only" 90% but a truly passive bonus. And you can only reach that with dual wielding - or am I mistaken?

 

And by the way: how does the -15% speed penalty on durgan refined shields really work? Can you use that as an attack speed bonus? Or is it just lowering the penalty from shields to zero and not further - like the durgan reinforcement in armors does?

Edited December 6, 2015 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

Shields have no penalty to attack speed so it must be just a plain attack speed bonus, though I never tested that.

 

Swift Aim is class-specific so I didn't count it; it would be like counting Armored Grace to let you wear armor and still suffer no penalty. Totally there but not universal

 

Dual wielding is still going to be faster than other solutions without temporary buffs but that's pretty much how it was designed. You can get close to that with other solutions under specific conditions and that's it, pretty much.

[Kaylon]

Dexterity bonus isn't additive with the attack speed bonuses. Dexterity affects both attack and recovery, while all attack speed bonuses/penalties are affecting only recovery. Here's how everything stacks with a fighter as example:

 

1. Fighter naked with 10dex using a war hammer and shield: 1s attack and 2s recovery

 

2. Fighter adds 8dex (24% spd bonus) : 1/(1+.24)=.8s attack and 2/(1+.24)=1.6s recovery

 

3. Fighter adds also a plate (+50%recovery): 1/(1+.24)=.8s attack and 2*(1+.5)/(1+.24)=2.4s recovery

 

4. Fighter adds also Armored Grace (-20%recovery) and durgan steel enchantement on shield/armor:  1/(1+.24)=.8s attack and 2*(1+.5-.2-.15.-15)/(1+.24)=2.4s recovery

 

5. Fighter having Gauntlets of Swift Action (15% attack), using Strike Hard (20% attack speed), enchanted with durgan steel (15% attack speed) and using a Potion of Deleterious Alacrity of Motion (50% attack speed): 1/(1+.24)=.8s attack and 2*(1+.5-.2-.15.-15-.15 -.2-.15-.5)/(1+.24)=0s recovery

 

6. Fighter using Cautios Attack (-20% attack speed) and Vulnerable Attack (-20% attack speed): 1/(1+.24)=.8s attack and 2*(1+.5-.2-.15.-15-.15 -.2-.15-.5+.2+.2)/(1+.24)=.3s recovery

 

PS. The fighter from (5) attacks as fast as a dual wielding fighter. However a fighter with Two Weapon Style talent can use Vulnerable Attack at the same time without penalty.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Kaylon

[limaxophobiacq]

So for casting, best you can get is 65% (or rather *0.35 recovery time) with Gauntlets of Swift Action + Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, and then just have good Dex on top of that? Or is there some way to decrease casting recovery further that stacks?

 

Does durgan enhancement on armor affect spellcasting recovery (so you could wear robes and still cast spells at full speed) or does it only affect weapon recovery?

 

I guess Minor Avatar isn't as great for casting speed as I thought if you already have good dex, at 22 base increasing to 30 with Minor Avatar is only difference between 1/1.36=0.735 and 1/1.6=0.625 or just 17.6% actual casting speed increase, about a third that of Deleterious Alacrity.

Edited December 6, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[L4wlight]

Some class-specific stuff:

Time Parasite is a late game ability but absolutely sustainable (Time Parasite 50% + speed enchanted weapon 20% + durgan steel 15 % + Gauntlets of Swift Action 15% = 100%). Wizards have no problems reaching this either. Also wizards can stack Dexterity as high as it gets (thanks to Citzal's Martial Power) on top of that. Also ranged combatants obviously suffer way less from wearing cloth only (or durgan steel enhanced robes).

Another spell worth mentioning is Nature's Bounty.

Edited December 6, 2015 by L4wlight

[L4wlight]

I guess Minor Avatar isn't as great for casting speed as I thought if you already have good dex, at 22 base increasing to 30 with Minor Avatar is only difference between 1/1.36=0.735 and 1/1.6=0.625 or just 17.6% actual casting speed increase, about a third that of Deleterious Alacrity.

You can't have enough Dexterity, because it affects Action Speed (makes animation of attacks and spells faster) AND recovery. Imo the difference is noticeable while chaincasting.

Edited December 6, 2015 by L4wlight

[AndreaColombo]

Lima- durgan on armor affects everything; durgan on weapons affects only weapons; not sure about durgan on shields - will test when I'm back home next week.

[limaxophobiacq]

Lima- durgan on armor affects everything; durgan on weapons affects only weapons; not sure about durgan on shields - will test when I'm back home next week.

 

 

So cloth is basically obsolete once you get durgan steel, since robes can also have 0 recovery penalty with it. If it works with shields (from the wording it doesn't, but you cant always trust that) you could even wear Aloths Leather Armor with no recovery penalty, which would be nice for the AoE bonus.

 

Actually even if it doesn't work for spells, it would work for a Barbarian for better carnage AoE with no recovery penalty once you've durgan enhanced the armor and your shield. Maybe just using Gwisk Glass and then using the shield enhancement to offset Vulnerable Attack penalty might be better though, and doesn't require you to use an adra dragon scale for superb.

Edited December 6, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[AlexDeLarge]

So now that we established that this strategy is awesome, does anyone have a list of when and where Gauntlets of Swift Action drop according to day of the month? (the POE random drop thread hasn't been updated in awhile)

 

Edit: Also, does Sanguine's Plate Frenzy nullify it's recovery penalty or are attack speed and recovery two separate factors that don't cancel each other out?

Edited December 6, 2015 by AlexDeLarge

[limaxophobiacq]

From what its saying it works by adding and suptracting percentages, so minus 50% for the plate plus 33% for Frenzy would leave you at -17%, and then 15% from durgan enhanced would get you to -2%. Recovery penalty and attack speed basically work on the same 'track', so 20% attack speed always counters 20% recovery penalty, while dex is entirely seperate.

[limaxophobiacq]

So for a barb going for maximum damage without using consumables:

 

Gwisk Glass (Durgan Enhanced, 0 recovery penalty) + Vulnerable attack & Durgan Enhanced Shield (5% penalty), gauntlets (15% bonus) speed enchanted durgan weapon (35% bonus) and Frenzy (33% bonus) would get you to 78% bonus, or *0.22 recovery while still ignoring 5 DR.

 

Doing the same with a non-speed weapon would get you *0.42 recovery, making you attack (1.84/1.44) 1.28 times slower, but probably weapon choice and enchantments will get you bonuses worth more than a 28% increase in attack speed, especially with Speed taking up room for 2 enchantments.

 

It feels like it not truly incredible unless you can stack it all the way to 0% recovery, which seems to require potions or being a wizard. And if you are a wizard it means you cant use your stupidly powerfull summoned weapons.

 

Dual-wield barbarian should be able to get there too with Frenzy (20 + 33 + 15 +35), but thats without Vulnerable Attack.

 

Gods help you if obsidian throws in enemies with retaliate attacks though.

[AlexDeLarge]

Yes but you're not taking into account the massive defense buffs you get from having a shield. Also, with how much gold you can accumulate in this game, i would say it's not a stretch to be crafting speed potions for every hard encounter (there's also Angio's Gambeson armor). And that jump from 78% to 100% speed is huge in terms of dps. Also, how does this work with shields that have a bash special?

Edited December 7, 2015 by AlexDeLarge

[AndreaColombo]

^ bash is generally not great for DPS as its damage is very low; the time it takes to attack with bash would almost always be better spent attacking with your main weapon. Besides, there's a bug in the game preventing Two Weapon Fighting from working with Bash.

 

Bonuses to attack speed are a very good DPS boost IF 1) you deal good damage per swing and/or 2) you have DR bypass. In those cases, the benefits of high speed increase as the length of the fight increases (but attacking faster than your opponent is always good regardless.)

 

Stacking it up to 100% or very close to that is great but either not sustainable or very limiting in terms of flexibility (you must use certain abilities, talents, equipment, etc.) Not that I'm complaining, mind you; I'm very satisfied with the DPS I reached with my LoP build

Edited December 7, 2015 by AndreaColombo