Turkey shoots down russian jet

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Other countries should do the same whenever a Mig skirts their airspace.

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign

 

We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS  territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted  land where Western troops  are not liked yet are expected to intervene 

 

I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry 

 

 

If Russia sent there its own troops, then there is high change that Syria and Iraq then become part of Russian Federation. And I am not sure if that is what anybody even Russians want.

 

 

1. Russia isn't going to be sending ground troops. Their goal is to force a peace process and keep Assad in power, not to retake the country for him. 

 

2. Syria and Iraq becoming part of RF? What? How does that work?

 

 

In scenario where Russia sends ground troops to take areas from ISIS they don't just need to march in and shoot some people that oppose it, because ISIS members will just become part of civilian population and take over again when those troops go away. To prevent that they need to actually conquer those areas and establish new rule which takes time and effort to build infrastructure, governmental control, dismantling current power structures etc.. Also we have USA's attempt as burden that shows that trusting local governance isn't necessary working policy and Russian current desire to show that it's world's super power and it's able to do same and even more than USA. And then why Syria and Iraq become part of RF, that is because actually accomplishing all previously mentioned things Russia (or any other country that tries to do it) needs at least decade worth of time and effort to build new working order there. And if Russian current political climate don't change in that decade it could be very difficult thing for Russian leadership just give up control of those lands even though they don't necessary want to keep them, as those lands have quite lot natural resources that interest parties behind Russian political elite.

 

So I am saying that Russia (or any other party) sending troops to combat ISIS has high change to become permanent occupation even if such is against their interests.

[Sakai]

But why anyone thinks Russia would want to go to war with Turkey boggles the mind 

Not so long ago a war with Ukraine was unthinkable. Yet here we are, at war with our closest ally because of ambitions of a mad man. So, though i don't think they want war with Turkey here, nonetheless never doubt the stupidity of russian leadership. 

[213374U]

If Turkey attacked a Russian airplane outside its (=NATO) borders it is considered an act of aggression and thus, NATO will do **** as it is a defence alliance (most of the time).

 

Lol, you talk like it actually matters whether the jet actually flew into Turkish airspace. Each side will claim the other is to blame, people will believe what they want to believe, great powers will act according to their interests, and the victor's history will settle the matter after the smoke clears.

 

As always.

[Gorgon]

Russia probably needed to be taken down a notch and no one was killed so... They are probably going to be more realistic about their own capacity in the future.

 

If there is going to be an intervention in Syria everybody, and by that I mean every forgein military power in theater, has to get on the same page first.

[Sakai]

Russia probably needed to be taken down a notch and no one was killed so... They are probably going to be more realistic about their own capacity in the future.

Pilots were killed, it would seem.

[Zoraptor]

One pilot is dead. Or the rebels made a Weta Workshop level dummy of someone known to be a Russian pilot inside two hours. I think I'd prefer the latter, but it isn't likely.

 

Seems pretty definitive that it was shot down well inside Syrian territory, even the Turks are admitting that. That's supposedly the official radar trace of the encounter. The site of the hit at least seems accurate, since the pilots were reported captured/ dead near Rabia which is around 8 km inside Syria and ~7.5km from the crash site. It seems deeply implausible overall though for the plane to crash a few hundred meters from the border yet have been- according to the trace- heading deeper into Syria in the exact opposite direction. Evasive might explain it, but there's zero evidence that the Su24 had any inkling they were targeted, rather the opposite since the plane is clearly still in cruise configuration with its wings forward. Almost certainly it was shot down without knowing it was targeted, pretty much the first thing to do if it was jumped is to change configuration to wing back which is far faster and supersonic capable.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Other countries should do the same whenever a Mig skirts their airspace.

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign

 

We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS  territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted  land where Western troops  are not liked yet are expected to intervene 

 

I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry 

 

 

If Russia sent there its own troops, then there is high change that Syria and Iraq then become part of Russian Federation. And I am not sure if that is what anybody even Russians want.

 

 

1. Russia isn't going to be sending ground troops. Their goal is to force a peace process and keep Assad in power, not to retake the country for him. 

 

2. Syria and Iraq becoming part of RF? What? How does that work?

 

 

In scenario where Russia sends ground troops to take areas from ISIS they don't just need to march in and shoot some people that oppose it, because ISIS members will just become part of civilian population and take over again when those troops go away. To prevent that they need to actually conquer those areas and establish new rule which takes time and effort to build infrastructure, governmental control, dismantling current power structures etc.. Also we have USA's attempt as burden that shows that trusting local governance isn't necessary working policy and Russian current desire to show that it's world's super power and it's able to do same and even more than USA. And then why Syria and Iraq become part of RF, that is because actually accomplishing all previously mentioned things Russia (or any other country that tries to do it) needs at least decade worth of time and effort to build new working order there. And if Russian current political climate don't change in that decade it could be very difficult thing for Russian leadership just give up control of those lands even though they don't necessary want to keep them, as those lands have quite lot natural resources that interest parties behind Russian political elite.

 

So I am saying that Russia (or any other party) sending troops to combat ISIS has high change to become permanent occupation even if such is against their interests.

 

Holy Smoke dude you Finns like to treat people fairly....no way the Russians if they did send troops would be there longer than they absolutely have to and they wouldn't be too concerned with civilians ...but they wouldn't go in guns blazing

 

One month maximum but there would be Russian casualties  

[BruceVC]

 

If Turkey attacked a Russian airplane outside its (=NATO) borders it is considered an act of aggression and thus, NATO will do **** as it is a defence alliance (most of the time).

 

Lol, you talk like it actually matters whether the jet actually flew into Turkish airspace. Each side will claim the other is to blame, people will believe what they want to believe, great powers will act according to their interests, and the victor's history will settle the matter after the smoke clears.

 

As always.

 

2133 we are trying to not spread conspiracy theories in this thread so please only make posts you believe and not what you think people want to hear

[Drowsy Emperor]

Russia probably needed to be taken down a notch and no one was killed so... They are probably going to be more realistic about their own capacity in the future.

 

If there is going to be an intervention in Syria everybody, and by that I mean every forgein military power in theater, has to get on the same page first.

 

Like everybody was on the same page in Iraq, Yugoslavia etc.? Careful your hypocrisy counter is going over 9000

[Gorgon]

 I wonder, how many of the forces fighthing close to the border is comprised of PKK allied forces and how many are potential allies for Turkey. Seems to me there is a missed  opportunity for Turkey to create stability by making long term alliances. 

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

 

Other countries should do the same whenever a Mig skirts their airspace.

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign

 

We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS  territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted  land where Western troops  are not liked yet are expected to intervene 

 

I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry 

 

 

If Russia sent there its own troops, then there is high change that Syria and Iraq then become part of Russian Federation. And I am not sure if that is what anybody even Russians want.

 

 

1. Russia isn't going to be sending ground troops. Their goal is to force a peace process and keep Assad in power, not to retake the country for him. 

 

2. Syria and Iraq becoming part of RF? What? How does that work?

 

 

In scenario where Russia sends ground troops to take areas from ISIS they don't just need to march in and shoot some people that oppose it, because ISIS members will just become part of civilian population and take over again when those troops go away. To prevent that they need to actually conquer those areas and establish new rule which takes time and effort to build infrastructure, governmental control, dismantling current power structures etc.. Also we have USA's attempt as burden that shows that trusting local governance isn't necessary working policy and Russian current desire to show that it's world's super power and it's able to do same and even more than USA. And then why Syria and Iraq become part of RF, that is because actually accomplishing all previously mentioned things Russia (or any other country that tries to do it) needs at least decade worth of time and effort to build new working order there. And if Russian current political climate don't change in that decade it could be very difficult thing for Russian leadership just give up control of those lands even though they don't necessary want to keep them, as those lands have quite lot natural resources that interest parties behind Russian political elite.

 

So I am saying that Russia (or any other party) sending troops to combat ISIS has high change to become permanent occupation even if such is against their interests.

 

Holy Smoke dude you Finns like to treat people fairly....no way the Russians if they did send troops would be there longer than they absolutely have to and they wouldn't be too concerned with civilians ...but they wouldn't go in guns blazing

 

One month maximum but there would be Russian casualties  

 

 

But what would that establish as soon as they leave ISIS takes control back if you don't dismantle their power structures and support systems, which take time even if you don't care civilian casualties (and such approach can make things even harder as there will be more people willing to join as they have now common enemy).

[Drowsy Emperor]

Russia isn't going to go nation building in the ruins of Syria and Iraq. They're not that stupid. Ground invasion isn't feasible either, and what purpose would it serve anyway.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Gorgon]

 

Russia probably needed to be taken down a notch and no one was killed so... They are probably going to be more realistic about their own capacity in the future.

 

If there is going to be an intervention in Syria everybody, and by that I mean every forgein military power in theater, has to get on the same page first.

 

Like everybody was on the same page in Iraq, Yugoslavia etc.? Careful your hypocrisy counter is going over 9000

 

Russia didn't intervene in Iraq as far as I remember, as for Yugoslavia at one point Nato and Russian forces were close to shooting at oneanother, definately not a good idea to pretend to inteverne together while backing different factions. Russia doesn't have the military muscle to be pressing its case in Syria, not any more really, she's doing it out of pride, some sense of lost empire, you know like Britain in the Falklands. 

[Qistina]

 

 

 

 

Other countries should do the same whenever a Mig skirts their airspace.

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign

 

We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS  territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted  land where Western troops  are not liked yet are expected to intervene 

 

I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry 

 

 

If Russia sent there its own troops, then there is high change that Syria and Iraq then become part of Russian Federation. And I am not sure if that is what anybody even Russians want.

 

 

1. Russia isn't going to be sending ground troops. Their goal is to force a peace process and keep Assad in power, not to retake the country for him. 

 

2. Syria and Iraq becoming part of RF? What? How does that work?

 

 

In scenario where Russia sends ground troops to take areas from ISIS they don't just need to march in and shoot some people that oppose it, because ISIS members will just become part of civilian population and take over again when those troops go away. To prevent that they need to actually conquer those areas and establish new rule which takes time and effort to build infrastructure, governmental control, dismantling current power structures etc.. Also we have USA's attempt as burden that shows that trusting local governance isn't necessary working policy and Russian current desire to show that it's world's super power and it's able to do same and even more than USA. And then why Syria and Iraq become part of RF, that is because actually accomplishing all previously mentioned things Russia (or any other country that tries to do it) needs at least decade worth of time and effort to build new working order there. And if Russian current political climate don't change in that decade it could be very difficult thing for Russian leadership just give up control of those lands even though they don't necessary want to keep them, as those lands have quite lot natural resources that interest parties behind Russian political elite.

 

So I am saying that Russia (or any other party) sending troops to combat ISIS has high change to become permanent occupation even if such is against their interests.

 

 

 

ISIS is not Syrian, they are easily being spotted by intelligence both from Assad and Russian.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Russia probably needed to be taken down a notch and no one was killed so... They are probably going to be more realistic about their own capacity in the future.

 

If there is going to be an intervention in Syria everybody, and by that I mean every forgein military power in theater, has to get on the same page first.

 

Like everybody was on the same page in Iraq, Yugoslavia etc.? Careful your hypocrisy counter is going over 9000

 

Russia didn't intervene in Iraq as far as I remember, as for Yugoslavia at one point Nato and Russian forces were close to shooting at oneanother, definately not a good idea to pretend to inteverne together while backing different factions. Russia doesn't have the military muscle to be pressing its case in Syria, not any more really, she's doing it out of pride, some sense of lost empire, you know like Britain in the Falklands. 

 

 

Gorgon does raise a good point, it was Russia and China who vetoed military action in the beginning. Do you guys who are anti-USA and supported this veto realize that this war would have been over 5 years ago if the USA had been allowed to intervene

 

I am always amazed how low the standards are when people make comments like " no the West had no right to attack Assad "  ...and then of course the West doesn't get involved as Obama respected the UNSC

 

So......Syria is now the most convoluted mess in the region...you guys must be happy. Very good solution Drowsy 

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

 

Other countries should do the same whenever a Mig skirts their airspace.

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign

 

We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS  territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted  land where Western troops  are not liked yet are expected to intervene 

 

I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry 

 

 

If Russia sent there its own troops, then there is high change that Syria and Iraq then become part of Russian Federation. And I am not sure if that is what anybody even Russians want.

 

 

1. Russia isn't going to be sending ground troops. Their goal is to force a peace process and keep Assad in power, not to retake the country for him. 

 

2. Syria and Iraq becoming part of RF? What? How does that work?

 

 

In scenario where Russia sends ground troops to take areas from ISIS they don't just need to march in and shoot some people that oppose it, because ISIS members will just become part of civilian population and take over again when those troops go away. To prevent that they need to actually conquer those areas and establish new rule which takes time and effort to build infrastructure, governmental control, dismantling current power structures etc.. Also we have USA's attempt as burden that shows that trusting local governance isn't necessary working policy and Russian current desire to show that it's world's super power and it's able to do same and even more than USA. And then why Syria and Iraq become part of RF, that is because actually accomplishing all previously mentioned things Russia (or any other country that tries to do it) needs at least decade worth of time and effort to build new working order there. And if Russian current political climate don't change in that decade it could be very difficult thing for Russian leadership just give up control of those lands even though they don't necessary want to keep them, as those lands have quite lot natural resources that interest parties behind Russian political elite.

 

So I am saying that Russia (or any other party) sending troops to combat ISIS has high change to become permanent occupation even if such is against their interests.

 

 

 

ISIS is not Syrian, they are easily being spotted by intelligence both from Assad and Russian.

 

 

Those that can't blend in native population would probably escape to Iraq and those that can will most likely do so and if Russians leave too soon, without dismantling ISIS's power structures and support systems then situation will come back current sooner than later.

[Qistina]

 

Those that can't blend in native population would probably escape to Iraq and those that can will most likely do so and if Russians leave too soon, without dismantling ISIS's power structures and support systems then situation will come back current sooner than later.

 

 

Why would they do that? They will wait for US reinforcement, and THAT what USA want...the justification to sent troop on Syria to help "Syrian rebels"....

 

Do you guys still don't understand who ISIS is?

Edited November 24, 2015 by Qistina

[teknoman2]

Today everyone shooting everyone, next nuclear fallout....then we can see super mutants....

if it escalates, our children will be playing fallout for real. better make sure that all games of the series are available for them to practice on

 

also, this is why i say that im not sorry for the french. they were directly involved in the wars that created ISIS (even started one of them) and they fed ISIS with weapons when they were still posing as "rebels against the evil dictator Asad".

besides, think of how many innocent people are killed over there every day... did anyone ever gave a F about them? did the entire world cried in indignation when ISIS executed an entire town? NO! but everyone lost their minds when a bunch of innocent french people got killed and let me tell you why: most people care about the french victims as much as they care about the syrians; what they care about is that ISIS has proven that cannot be controled or contained in that remote corner of the world that does not affect the rest of us.

Edited November 24, 2015 by teknoman2

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

Russia probably needed to be taken down a notch and no one was killed so... They are probably going to be more realistic about their own capacity in the future.

 

If there is going to be an intervention in Syria everybody, and by that I mean every forgein military power in theater, has to get on the same page first.

 

Like everybody was on the same page in Iraq, Yugoslavia etc.? Careful your hypocrisy counter is going over 9000

 

Russia didn't intervene in Iraq as far as I remember, as for Yugoslavia at one point Nato and Russian forces were close to shooting at oneanother, definately not a good idea to pretend to inteverne together while backing different factions. Russia doesn't have the military muscle to be pressing its case in Syria, not any more really, she's doing it out of pride, some sense of lost empire, you know like Britain in the Falklands. 

 

 

But they were against those interventions, in the mechanisms (UN) instituted with the idea that conflicts should be resolved on the basis of consensus instead of unilateral action.

When NATO was doing as it pleased the world over, that's all well and good but when Russia is protecting its interests it needs to be "taken down a notch", even though its targeting an entity that is now more or less the enemy of the entire world and is attacked by country that is supporting said entity - a country that is also a member of the NATO alliance and is undermining the supposed goals of the alliance in the matter. 

 

Long story short - Turkish support for ISIS is okay, Russians protecting their interests isn't?

[Qistina]

Alright i ask you guys, who was USA fighting against in Iraq?

 

Iraqis army?

Al Qaeda?

 

What was the reason USA invade Iraq and kill Saddam Hussein?

 

As a response for 9/11?

To find WMD?

To eradicate terrorist group a.k.a AlQaeda?

To help Iraqis overthrow dictator?

 

Do you guys still BLIND?

 

The same thing here....the very same thing, but USA FAILED to topple Assad because Russian say "i can't take this bull**** anymore" and helping Assad.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Qistina

[Elerond]

 

 

Those that can't blend in native population would probably escape to Iraq and those that can will most likely do so and if Russians leave too soon, without dismantling ISIS's power structures and support systems then situation will come back current sooner than later.

 

 

Why would they do that? They will wait for US reinforcement, and THAT what USA want...the justification to sent troop on Syria to help "Syrian rebels"....

 

Do you guys still don't understand who ISIS is?

 

 

It is the most effective and simplest strategy that any party can take against overwhelmingly powerful enemy.  Meaning that you hide withing population that you enemy is protecting or you escape to area that they aren't attacking and wait their attention to change its target and then start to strike back. 

[Qistina]

 

 

 

Those that can't blend in native population would probably escape to Iraq and those that can will most likely do so and if Russians leave too soon, without dismantling ISIS's power structures and support systems then situation will come back current sooner than later.

 

 

Why would they do that? They will wait for US reinforcement, and THAT what USA want...the justification to sent troop on Syria to help "Syrian rebels"....

 

Do you guys still don't understand who ISIS is?

 

 

It is the most effective and simplest strategy that any party can take against overwhelmingly powerful enemy.  Meaning that you hide withing population that you enemy is protecting or you escape to area that they aren't attacking and wait their attention to change its target and then start to strike back. 

 

 

 

Naaaah....they wait USA troop come in, they are the "Syrian rebels" USA is going to help, then they kill Assad, and the job done...they move to other Muslim countries, same thing happen again over and over until all old regimes goes down

Edited November 24, 2015 by Qistina

[Qistina]

This Turkey move i see it is to gain sympathy from Muslims to NOT supporting Russian....so after this propaganda will plays that Turkey is Muslim  and Russian is non-Muslims, as Muslims all must support Turkey...

 

They already playing this propganda on Facebook...

 

They even twist saying Russian is Crusaders by showing Orthodox monk blessing Russian army....it's funny you know...because i know Crusaders are Roman Catholic...

Edited November 24, 2015 by Qistina

[Zoraptor]

Russian version now seems to be that the plane was hit 1 km inside the border and crashed 4km inside, with no intrusion. Putin sounds pissed, unsurprisingly. Unconfirmed that the 2nd pilot is also dead.

 

 I wonder, how many of the forces fighthing close to the border is comprised of PKK allied forces and how many are potential allies for Turkey. Seems to me there is a missed  opportunity for Turkey to create stability by making long term alliances. 

 

In Latakia no one is PKK aligned. It's Syrian army, various 'FSA' and Al Nusra. The particular Turkish proxy in the area are Turkmen, specifically a rather unpleasant islamist group. Attacks on them and them losing rather badly at the moment is what Turkey is ostensibly annoyed at, though Turkey didn't give a hoot about turkmen in Amerli when it was besieged by ISIS, nor by the current shenanigans by his house Kurd Barzani in Toz Khormato where turkmen were being ethnically cleansed until a shia militia stepped in. Around 2/3 of the Syrian border is controlled by the PKK affiliate YPG though, just not the part near Latakia. The YPG is also by far the biggest faction in the new 'Syrian Democratic Forces' which are meant to be the guys fighting ISIS on the ground for the west, and they've been regularly attacked by the Turkish military in various places.

 

As for long term alliances, so long as Erdogan has the Bosporus and doesn't do anything utterly mental (realistically, far more even than this) he'll have NATO. He also has probably the 3rd most effective rebel group as a proxy, and decent relations with the other two more powerful ones (JAN/ ISIS).

[Qistina]

Expect major war soon...now Muslims are confused, Crusade propaganda have been played, as if Russians are Crusaders who want to kill Muslims of Syria...the "Syrian Rebels" (a.k.a ISIS) are heroes protecting Muslims from the invading Russian...Turkey respons to help Muslims...Assad is evil traitor who work with Infidels....so all Muslims must defend Islam from Crusader Russian.