European Refugee Crisis

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I know some of you just dismiss everything related to "Atlantis" and "Lemuria", only believing in evolutionists and mainstream scientists....just consider this, why there are so many unaswerable questions regarding the past? Why there are so many forbidden archeology in the list? How pyramids was build before 10000 BC? Why there are building build even before that?

Because the Hibernian Druids.

 

[Namutree]

The answer is Atlantis...mainstream scietists refuse to accept that and saying human just evolved recently, it is because want to justify western superiority,

???

 

How would evolution science make westerners any better than anyone else? I'm pretty sure that the theory of evolution comes more from the overwhelming amount of evidence for it than anyone's desire to be superior. Especially considering that for a long time the vast majority of our population just stuck our head's in the sand to pretend it isn't true since we didn't want it to be true. The primary reasons being:

 

A) Evolution strongly implies that human beings are just animals. Nothing mystical or innately special about us. If anything, evolution is humbling.

 

B) Many religious people don't like how it contradicts the story of Genesis.

 

 

 that you are the most advance human being, other races are undeveloped, not yet to reach human potential...

According to the very same science that suggests evolution; ethnicity is largely meaningless. You'll find that myths of ethnic superiority or inferiority are not as common among the scientifically literate than the superstitious. So this is utter nonsense. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by Namutree

[BruceVC]

I know some of you just dismiss everything related to "Atlantis" and "Lemuria", only believing in evolutionists and mainstream scientists....just consider this, why there are so many unaswerable questions regarding the past? Why there are so many forbidden archeology in the list? How pyramids was build before 10000 BC? Why there are building build even before that?

 

The answer is Atlantis...mainstream scietists refuse to accept that and saying human just evolved recently, it is because want to justify western superiority, that you are the most advance human being, other races are undeveloped, not yet to reach human potential...

 

China actually already having advance civilizations 5000 BC, already made buildings and having governments while the west are just new civilization around 300 BC...

Yes China did have the most advanced civilization for 3000 years...but that ended 600  years ago

 

 Now the West has the most advanced, tolerant and progressive civilization in the world. Its not hard to understand  why this is

 

 

I am not suggesting Western superiority because I am some sort of Western zealot, the facts speak for themselves. Even Muslims from countries that supposedly dislike the West, like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria want to immigrate to the West

 

You should ask the various refugees why they consider Western culture preferable to living in the Middle East...blame them for creating this view  '"that the West offers the quality of life "   

Edited November 29, 2015 by BruceVC

[Qistina]

 

I am not suggesting Western superiority because I am some sort of Western zealot, the facts speak for themselves. Even Muslims from countries that supposedly dislike the West, like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria want to immigrate to the West

 

You should ask the various refugees why they consider Western culture preferable to living in the Middle East...blame them for creating this view  '"that the West offers the quality of life "   

 

 

 

Their countries won't be a mess if not because of the west...the west who messed up their countries. Such as in Afhanistan, USA who supply the Mujahidden to fight Russia and then let them loose, you give weapons to mad men, then these mad men rule, what do you expect? Below is Afghanistan before ad after USA using Mujahiddeen to fight Russian. If the west don't intervine, Afghans won't bother to migrate to the west....

 

 

Below is Iraq before and after USA topple Saddam Hussein

 

 

Western peoples are hypocrite...you claim you are better than anyone, it is just because you destroy everyone else

[Qistina]

So "the west offer the quality of life"...bull****...you now complaint why Muslims migrating to your country, it is because your own doing, yet you want to claim it is because you offer a good quality of life than anyone else?

 

 

[BruceVC]

 

 

I am not suggesting Western superiority because I am some sort of Western zealot, the facts speak for themselves. Even Muslims from countries that supposedly dislike the West, like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria want to immigrate to the West

 

You should ask the various refugees why they consider Western culture preferable to living in the Middle East...blame them for creating this view  '"that the West offers the quality of life "   

 

 

 

Their countries won't be a mess if not because of the west...the west who messed up their countries. Such as in Afhanistan, USA who supply the Mujahidden to fight Russia and then let them loose, you give weapons to mad men, then these mad men rule, what do you expect? Below is Afghanistan before ad after USA using Mujahiddeen to fight Russian. If the west don't intervine, Afghans won't bother to migrate to the west....

 

 

Below is Iraq before and after USA topple Saddam Hussein

 

 

Western peoples are hypocrite...you claim you are better than anyone, it is just because you destroy everyone else

 

No, you are mistaken 

 

 

So yes some mistakes were made by the West, like the invasion of Iraq and the reasons we were given

 

But countries need to learn once they have independence they need to practice good governance and be inclusive of all there citizens 

 

ISIS also wouldn't be in existence if the  current Shia and Iranian influenced government in Iraq had incorporated the Sunni minority...so that's on al-Maliki

 

He ostracized the Sunni minority in Iraq  and they felt like they weren't part of the new Iraq....so the new Iraqi government failed to be inclusive of all its citizens. This lead to the tribal Sunnis aligning with ISIS and supporting them...this is not the Wests fault

 

So its very important to remember  that if the West really wanted to destroy the Middle East....it really doesn't have to do too much as certain countries are doing it to themselves 

[Qistina]

What if we the east do the same things to you? Meddling with your affairs and invading your country, then leave it in ruins? How about that?

 

Will you still boasting your "good quality of life"?

 

What if we in the east doing the same to you, "Obama is a dictator, let us sent our troops to topple him and give Americans their freedom"

 

Or "USA have problem with Mexico, let us armed the white supremacist in USA, let them fight the Mexicans, then let them topple government of USA, there will be no problem with Mexico then...later we will sent our troop to fight these white supremacists....and we restore the democracy..."

Edited November 29, 2015 by Qistina

[Namutree]

So "the west offer the quality of life"...bull****...you now complaint why Muslims migrating to your country, it is because your own doing, yet you want to claim it is because you offer a good quality of life than anyone else?

 

 

 

 

That picture method of showing the west's effects is kinda flawed. I mean I could say that aids is good for your health by that method. Example:

 

Man with AIDS:

 

Man without AIDS:

 

Not having AIDS makes people sick.

 

Not saying you're point is right or wrong; only that those pictures don't prove your point.

[Qistina]

What if, we in the east meddling with your affairs in the west?

 

"Oh look, the black people are discrimated in the US, let us help them, let us armed them, let them destroy the white and took over USA, then we sent our troops to fight these black rebels, we restore democracy in USA"

 

How about that?

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

"Europeans" come from the east originally, the real Europeans are only a few, the Romans/Italians and Greeks...

 

Frank, Goth, Visigoth, Ostrogoth, Vandal, Saxon...are all Mongol stock from the east now become French, German, Polish, Hungarians, English...

 

Spanish is mixture of some above with Moors, Berbers....

 

It is not so suprising if the history repeat itself....

Might as well say all humans are Africans.

 

 

Not all, but some...far eastern peoples are not from Africa...

 

 

I think you missed the joke, all humans have genetics roots that trace back to Africa (something you could have found out with a few seconds of research):

 

"Homo erectus were the first of the hominina to leave Africa, and this species spread through Africa, Asia, and Europe between 1.3 to 1.8 million years ago. One population of H. erectus, also sometimes classified as a separate species Homo ergaster, stayed in Africa and evolved into Homo sapiens."

 

"This would suggest several different species of humans co-existing in Africa around two million years ago with only one of them surviving and eventually evolving into our species, Homo sapiens. It is as if nature was experimenting with different versions of the same evolutionary configuration until one succeeded."

 

Those are hardly the best sources but good enough to prove my point.

 

 

Like i said, not all, but some...some human come from Atlantis....especially SEA peoples. My people was Atlanteans.

 

 

 

That is all and good, but that map show that all humans have monophyletic origin in Paradise. It also claims that people actually moved in Africa and no population stream continued forward from there. It seems to also claim that Russians and Finns are same population stream and that Finns and Hungarians aren't same population stream. It resembles lot of those maps that Nazis used although it don't have their imaginative Aryan race mentioned as major population stream.

[Namutree]

What if, we in the east meddling with your affairs in the west?

 

"Oh look, the black people are discrimated in the US, let us help them, let us armed them, let them destroy the white and took over USA, then we sent our troops to fight these black rebels, we restore democracy in USA"

 

How about that?

I would oppose that. Granted I've opposed all US aggression in my lifetime, and voted accordingly. Too bad most people aren't like me in this regard. If you knew my history on this forum; you'd know that I'm among the very most skeptical of US foreign policy.

[Elerond]

 

I am not suggesting Western superiority because I am some sort of Western zealot, the facts speak for themselves. Even Muslims from countries that supposedly dislike the West, like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria want to immigrate to the West

 

You should ask the various refugees why they consider Western culture preferable to living in the Middle East...blame them for creating this view  '"that the West offers the quality of life "

 

 

Their countries won't be a mess if not because of the west...the west who messed up their countries. Such as in Afhanistan, USA who supply the Mujahidden to fight Russia and then let them loose, you give weapons to mad men, then these mad men rule, what do you expect? Below is Afghanistan before ad after USA using Mujahiddeen to fight Russian. If the west don't intervine, Afghans won't bother to migrate to the west....

 

 

Below is Iraq before and after USA topple Saddam Hussein

 

 

Western peoples are hypocrite...you claim you are better than anyone, it is just because you destroy everyone else

 

 

Iraq before western intervention

Following picture is disturbing and isn't material that should be shown to children 

 

Picture shows victims of Saddam's chemical weapon attack against Kurds

 

Iraq after failed western intervention

Picture shows Sinjar which was destroyed by ISIS and efforts to drive ISIS away them. Picture is near of one of many Yazidi mass graves who were killed by ISIS.

 

War and tyrants never change.

 

Another even more disturbing picture of Saddam's victims

 

 

 

 

 

 

Moderators feel free to remove pictures in spoilers if they aren't suitable to this forum.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

 

What if, we in the east meddling with your affairs in the west?

 

"Oh look, the black people are discrimated in the US, let us help them, let us armed them, let them destroy the white and took over USA, then we sent our troops to fight these black rebels, we restore democracy in USA"

 

How about that?

I would oppose that. Granted I've opposed all US aggression in my lifetime, and voted accordingly. Too bad most people aren't like me in this regard. If you knew my history on this forum; you'd know that I'm among the very most skeptical of US foreign policy.

 

Yes Namutree has always opposed Western military intervention unless the Wests interests are truly threatened . that is true. And he refuses to change his mind despite my efforts 

 

And people have been interfering and trying to defeat the West for decades. The West has faced threats like  fascism, communism and now Islamic extremism..and the West has always persevered, survived and evolved. So please don't think the West hasn't been under attack in its history....it has been and it is currently. But this is something we can address and we will deal with it 

 

So take your best shot, please ...interfere as much as you want, it won't change the reality of the world and this is  something you really don't want to admit " the West offers its citizens the best quality of life and has the happiest citizens " ..which is why it is the most dominant ideology in the world 

Edited November 29, 2015 by BruceVC

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

 

I am not suggesting Western superiority because I am some sort of Western zealot, the facts speak for themselves. Even Muslims from countries that supposedly dislike the West, like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria want to immigrate to the West

 

You should ask the various refugees why they consider Western culture preferable to living in the Middle East...blame them for creating this view  '"that the West offers the quality of life "   

 

 

 

Their countries won't be a mess if not because of the west...the west who messed up their countries. Such as in Afhanistan, USA who supply the Mujahidden to fight Russia and then let them loose, you give weapons to mad men, then these mad men rule, what do you expect? Below is Afghanistan before ad after USA using Mujahiddeen to fight Russian. If the west don't intervine, Afghans won't bother to migrate to the west....

 

 

Below is Iraq before and after USA topple Saddam Hussein

 

 

Western peoples are hypocrite...you claim you are better than anyone, it is just because you destroy everyone else

 

 

Iraq before western intervention

Following picture is disturbing and isn't material that should be shown to children 

 

 Picture shows victims of Saddam's chemical weapon attack against Kurds

 

Iraq after failed western intervention

Picture shows Sinjar which was destroyed by ISIS and efforts to drive ISIS away them. Picture is near of one of many Yazidi mass graves who were killed by ISIS.

 

War and tyrants never change.

 

Another even more disturbing picture of Saddam's victims

 

 

 

 

 

Moderators feel free to remove pictures in spoilers if they aren't suitable to this forum.

 

 

God only knows what you're trying to prove. That Saddam's crimes are justification for turning Iraq into a failed state with a decade of war and destruction? Hell, its not even a failed state, Iraq and Libya have ceased to exist as states. It was never this bad in either of those two countries, even during the worst periods under their respective rulers.

 

ISIS was spawned precisely because the territories of Iraq are suffering from years in a power vacuum and violence and out of the same soldiers the US fired post invasion. 

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

Don't play dumb.

 

How will they be fine? How will society be better? How will the trust in the institutions and the leaders be better? How will crime be less? How will terrorism erode away? How will economic development be better? How will social cohesion better? How will social mobility be improved? 

 

This wave of refugees are anything but helping the situation, that's for sure.

 

I have only heard good evidence for different degrees for doom & gloom. So lets reverse the tide somehow, spread your solutions with positivism or otherwise there will be wars.

 

Lets hear it, Bruce.

 

Seriously...wars between who?

 

Wars between the disheartened and disillusioned Syrian refugees and the West...wow that's a real threat.

 

The West has been the most dominant ideology\government for 500 years because it follows certain rules and systems of governance that have been proved the BEST ways to run a country and ensure that the West has the  happiest citizens in the world. The relevance of the " happiest citizens in the world " cannot be ignored because this is a real metric that should be used to determine if a particular government is really successful. Its not about GDP, military might or a respected government. These are all factors but end of the day what we should simply ask when we ponder the question " what makes a good government\ideology " is simply " are the citizens happy " 

 

If the citizens are happy then there is no reason that system of government will end ...its as simple as that

 

And if you think somehow terrorist attacks are going to undermine the West then that's an egregious misunderstanding. Attacks like Paris shootings unite countries and unions like the EU. They make governments more  resolute and steadfast in dealing with the particular issue. Terrorism and bomb blasts have never historically caused any government to say " oh well, time to change our core and fundamental beliefs because of some extremist group "

 

Hollande and France have reaffirmed military alliances with Russia and even Germany is now more committed to a military solution, we also have the UK voting again on airstrikes in Syria

 

So lets be clear on this point " ISIS or any extremist attacks on the West are just going to unite the West " ..not weaken it

 

So I'm sorry I don't understand or support this notion that the West is going to be defeated or face some of sort of structural social and political change due to Islamic extremism

 

The facts don't support the reality my Finnish friend

 

 

You didn't answer any of my questions and answered one made up by yourself. Thanks.

[Drowsy Emperor]

You should know better by now Meshugger.

[Elerond]

God only knows what you're trying to prove. That Saddam's crimes are justification for turning Iraq into a failed state with a decade of war and destruction? Hell, its not even a failed state, Iraq and Libya have ceased to exist as states. It was never this bad in either of those two countries, even during the worst periods under their respective rulers.

 

ISIS was spawned precisely because the territories of Iraq are suffering from years in a power vacuum and violence and out of the same soldiers the US fired post invasion.

Only thing I try show is that Iraq wasn't paradise before western (mainly US) interventions and it has not become better place after them. Because war don't change just because people who are warring change. Somebodies always suffer and it is usually those that can't defend themselves.

 

Like is said western intervention in Iraq failed (at least if it purpose was to stop violence in the region) and second one more than first one. But anyway it isn't democracy in Iraq that is root of their problems. You find more blame in failing to implement equal democracy and representation behind rise of ISIS.

 

Current crises in Iraq and Syria aren't just because of power vacuum caused by poorly planned intervention by west, but also because their neighboring countries played power politics and supported directly or indirectly parties that later become ISIS and they still support parties that cause more destabilization in the area (US also does this). So even though US second intervention created base for current crises they aren't alone with blame, because those areas play theater for international politics for several bigger countries, like Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran, Turkey and US, which all have bit different agendas and goal that cross paths in many parts when it comes to solving the crises, which is why they are so indolent in their action to solve the crises. And ISIS has been able to grow and thrive because of this to point where our players starts to become forced to act in ways they really don't want to. And to point those pictures that is post about Halabja chemical attack aren't just past but effects of that attack still play their part in current crisis, as it was justification that US used in both of their invasions and it is reason why Kurds are so willing to fight for their own state and that willingness for own state is why Turkey don't support Kurds fight against ISIS, but actually acts against them and they are also excuse that is used to justify to dethroning Assad, as he had/has chemical weapons and it is said that he used them against rebels and civilians.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

 

Like i said, not all, but some...some human come from Atlantis....especially SEA peoples. My people was Atlanteans.

 

 

 

 

I know some of you just dismiss everything related to "Atlantis" and "Lemuria", only believing in evolutionists and mainstream scientists....just consider this, why there are so many unaswerable questions regarding the past? Why there are so many forbidden archeology in the list? How pyramids was build before 10000 BC? Why there are building build even before that?

 

The answer is Atlantis...mainstream scietists refuse to accept that and saying human just evolved recently, it is because want to justify western superiority, that you are the most advance human being, other races are undeveloped, not yet to reach human potential...

 

China actually already having advance civilizations 5000 BC, already made buildings and having governments while the west are just new civilization around 300 BC...

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm fairly sure you're just a troll now. But, assuming you're real and not something that lives under a bridge and gets killed by the biggest billy goat, I don't believe in Atlantis because there is no evidence to support your claims. You bring up things like the pyramids, although they're only from around 2560 BC and not 'before 10,000 BC as you claim assuming you're talking about the Great Pyramids at Giza, but we have some good ideas how they were built and it's not that much of a mystery (again this took less than a minute of research, it's really not that hard but then I'm not green and ugly and don't demand tolls). The same thing is true of evolution, or evilution as you might call it, it has the preadolescence of evidence and has held of to scientific scrutineers and until you can also demonstrate and support your claims using science it's going to be hard to take you seriously...

 

Although maybe the Atlantian race could only be killed by acid or fire and that's why they're still around?    

[Qistina]

 

Iraq before western intervention

Following picture is disturbing and isn't material that should be shown to children 

 

Picture shows victims of Saddam's chemical weapon attack against Kurds

 

Iraq after failed western intervention

Picture shows Sinjar which was destroyed by ISIS and efforts to drive ISIS away them. Picture is near of one of many Yazidi mass graves who were killed by ISIS.

 

War and tyrants never change.

 

Another even more disturbing picture of Saddam's victims

 

 

 

 

 

 

Moderators feel free to remove pictures in spoilers if they aren't suitable to this forum.

 

 

Want me to show Obama drone victims? USA troops attrocities in Iraq, Abu Ghraib prison and many places? Want me to show attrocities in your own place?

 

Don't make peoples look like a fool...

 

USA presidents are no different than Saddam

Edited November 29, 2015 by Qistina

[Qistina]

Whatever Saddam is doing it is not up to USA and the west to intervene, it is their own people business, their people affair. Who are you to busybody about other peoples affairs?

 

USA attack Iraq is not UN, it was USA who invade Iraq. Who do you think you are?

 

Saddam is tyrant or what is none of your problem. But still Iraq is good under him. Like i mentioned before, it is their way, not your way and you have no business there.

 

USA is not paradise either but do anyone bother to meddling in your affairs?

[BruceVC]

Whatever Saddam is doing it is not up to USA and the west to intervene, it is their own people business, their people affair. Who are you to busybody about other peoples affairs?

 

USA attack Iraq is not UN, it was USA who invade Iraq. Who do you think you are?

 

Saddam is tyrant or what is none of your problem. But still Iraq is good under him. Like i mentioned before, it is their way, not your way and you have no business there.

 

USA is not paradise either but do anyone bother to meddling in your affairs?

 

No thats not true

 

Gadaffi ruled Libya for 40 years and he never once had an election, he ruled the country because he was a brutal dictator and controlled the army and police

 

He is the  same as Saddam, they aren't legitimate leaders so I'm  not sure what " own peoples business "  means because these types of  countries don't include the people in the economy or politics that benefit the ruling dictator and his supporters 

Edited November 29, 2015 by BruceVC

[Qistina]

That is not USA business, not the west business, it's their people business. If they want a change they will change, if they don't then they don't, whatever things in their country is none of the west business.

 

I don't want you USA to busybody with my country affairs, my country business, my people business. You have no right.

 

Do you want any country busybody with your affairs?

 

The real dictator here is USA and the west, you want to dictate everyone in the world about everything.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Qistina

[Calax]

 

I know some of you just dismiss everything related to "Atlantis" and "Lemuria", only believing in evolutionists and mainstream scientists....just consider this, why there are so many unaswerable questions regarding the past? Why there are so many forbidden archeology in the list? How pyramids was build before 10000 BC? Why there are building build even before that?

 

The answer is Atlantis...mainstream scietists refuse to accept that and saying human just evolved recently, it is because want to justify western superiority, that you are the most advance human being, other races are undeveloped, not yet to reach human potential...

 

China actually already having advance civilizations 5000 BC, already made buildings and having governments while the west are just new civilization around 300 BC...

Yes China did have the most advanced civilization for 3000 years...but that ended 600  years ago

 

 Now the West has the most advanced, tolerant and progressive civilization in the world. Its not hard to understand  why this is

 

 

For the most part, China and Europe have the the cultural centers for the world. They were the two that unified earliest and had the most powerful military (India is probably the third if you want to expand it). Although between around 1400 to 1600 Japan started to Outstrip China techologically, but they cut thsemselves off via Shogunate.

 

Europe is the dominant power now because of the Enlightenment and Black Plague. The latter allowing the former to take place and the adjustment of social strata being forced to occur to allow peasants to grow to be more than just a guy working another guys farm. As part of this the Age of Sail was what allowed Europe to become dominant as they began to funnel ideas and money through Europe itself forcing them to become the political and social Nexus of the world. In more recent decades, the US has become this by being the "Best of the West" during the Cold War.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

The crux of the matter is that the Enlightenment didn't create a tradition (its incapable of it) that people could integrate around, in fact it fought (and still fights) against such ideas. And Europe without Christianity and nationalism is nothing.  Just a mass of atomized individuals united by nothing more than good living standards.

 

 

 

Quelle horreur!

 

Oh wait, no, I'm totally not seeing how that's a bad thing.

 

 

 

I think you missed the joke, all humans have genetics roots that trace back to Africa (something you could have found out with a few seconds of research):

 

"Homo erectus were the first of the hominina to leave Africa, and this species spread through Africa, Asia, and Europe between 1.3 to 1.8 million years ago. One population of H. erectus, also sometimes classified as a separate species Homo ergaster, stayed in Africa and evolved into Homo sapiens."

 

"This would suggest several different species of humans co-existing in Africa around two million years ago with only one of them surviving and eventually evolving into our species, Homo sapiens. It is as if nature was experimenting with different versions of the same evolutionary configuration until one succeeded."

 

Those are hardly the best sources but good enough to prove my point.

 

 

Or the two species are capable of interbreeding but because of today's politics it would be suicide if said that there are different species of humans.

 

 

Well yes, of course it would be, since the definition of species is "the largest group of organisms where two hybrids are capable of reproducing fertile offspring". Anybody espousing the idea that "different species of humans capable of interbreeding exist" should be pointed and laughed at, since they obviously have no idea what any of those words mean.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Oh wait, no, I'm totally not seeing how that's a bad thing.

 

 

Quelle horreur