European Refugee Crisis

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

This guy experienced the terrors of leftism first hand and lived to tell the tale: https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/i_was_beat_up_by_left_anarchists_in_greece/

 

I don't usually use forums or Reddit, I usually just post comments on Ancap blogs like Molyneux or Cantwell's blog, but they didn't seem appropriate places to post my story. So here goes, I just wanted to share this with all of you.

 

Nov 3 I flew to Europe for a Eurotrip type tour. Not a guide or packaged deal, just going around by myself. I paid for half of the trip with the wages I earned over the last two years, my dad paid for the other half. I am 19, I guess that is normal starting college and all. (Before that I worked for my dad's company part time, so I guess you could say he paid for all of it, lol).

 

I did France and then Italy and then Greece next. I am an Ancap so I wanted to see anarchists in these places. Yes, I know they are different kinds of "anarchists" and not really full anarchists like us. I went to an anarchist book store in Italy and it had a lot of English books, but no Rothbard or Ancap. Like I said, I expected that, not a surprise.

 

I went to Greece, which everyone knows is famous for its revolutionary anarchism, its economic crisis and everything going on right now. Here I found directions for a local anarchist center. I went and didn't see anybody, but it was covered in graffiti, mostly in Greek so I couldn't read it. Whatever, I started taking pictures. Then some people came out and confronted me.

 

This should have been my first warning sign something was not right, because photography is not a crime. They were not violent, but they were not friendly, like asking who I was, what I wanted. They all spoke good English actually. Not uncommon in Greece. I said I was a tourist and an anarchist and I just wanted to take pictures. Then they got friendly and told me I should have asked first (but pictures are no NAP violation so I don't know why, but I didn't say anything) and they invited me inside.

 

We hung out for a while and smoked hash (there is no good dank in Europe as you might find out like in Cali, everyone smokes hash with tobacco which isn't as cool as it sounds). We started talking about politics and anarchism. I was trying to talk about the state, they were like yeah no doubt the state was bad. But they wanted to talk about capitalism, capitalism this and that. This is when we started to get into a debate.

 

I told them that what they called capitalism is different from the free market. They said capitalism is free markets. And I said I agreed. That is what I am saying. Real capitalism is free markets. And they said yes, that is what we are trying to get rid of. And I said no, but we don't even have that right now. We need more free markets. And everyone at the same time was like "nooo" we are anarchists, we are against capitalism. Anarchists oppose capitalism.

 

And I said but not anarcho-capitalists. Anarcho-capitalists are the anarchists who support capitalism. I had a fanny pack (yeah, lame I know) for my camera and in that I had this yellow and black bowtie (also super lame, it was a joke but I wasnt wearing it). And I said look, these are the Ancap colors, yellow and black, like versus the communist red and black. Well, these guys had a lot of red and black in the building already so I thought they would get it.

 

I think that is when it started to get a really bad vibe, really tense in the air. The free market thing was funny, we disagreed but I think they thought I was just confused. Everyone was uncomfortable now. Then someone said markets wont work with democracy. And I said exactly, that's it, democracy is against anarchism. And they kind of agreed, and said yes, we don't have real democracy, just governments, and we needed more democracy. I said no, we need less democracy, democracy is the enemy. And we need to end democracy to have anarchy. Then they were all like "noooo" again. You know that thing people do in groups when everyone all says "nooo" or expresses some disapproval at the same time.

 

And one of them said "but we do want to stop democracy" and then they kind of spoke back and forth in Greek. I didn't really understand it. And they asked me what I meant.

 

So I said okay, I had the floor, I was going to tell them about ancapism. And I tried to explain to them some Rothbard and Hoppe. I said the natural order in anarchy is that the best rise to the top, the market picks who is the best. They compete and are peaceful. They said what do we want instead of anarchy. I said we want private owners to own their own land and businesses, and to employ people. They said that is what we have now. I said no, it would be even better. One of the guys said it was like feudalism. And I said it is not feudalism.

 

Eventually one of the guys spoke up and I thought he was Greek, but he spoke English perfectly so he may have not been. He said he knew what anarcho-capitalism was and that we were basically fascists. He asked me if I thought everything should be private. And I said yes. And he asked me if I thought people were unequal. And I told him yes. And that not everyone would have equal rights. I said everyone has the right to own property and not be done aggression against. But that not everyone had to be treated equally by the owners. He said what about immigrants and racism. And I said that would not happen in a free market, but yes property owners could be racist if they wanted to. They had to respect property.

 

Then he called me a fascist again, and someone else said I was a fascist. And then they basically all started shouting fascist at me, and one of them grabbed me by the wrists. They pulled me out the door, it was up three floors, and basically drug me down the stairs on my back. It hurt really bad and I remember yelling "you're breaking the NAP" and things like that. "Stop initiating force against me." Then they kicked me around on the ground in the hallway, before they took my camera and threw me outside. I was crying and stuff, I just sat there. I was in shock because it was so sudden. Looking back there were warning signs though.

 

I think they felt bad for me and gave the camera back, but when I looked later they stole the memory card with all of my Greek photos.

 

So they initiated force and theft. They broke the NAP. I knew the left anarchists were not real anarchists, but I never knew they would do something that bad.

 

I wasnt seriously hurt, just kicked around a little, lots of bruises and little cuts. I am fine guys so don't worry. Just needed to share.

I bet he knows how to fix Europe.

[HoonDing]

worst continent ever

[Drowsy Emperor]

you said it mate

[Malcador]

Well, makes sense to bribe Turkey - outsourcing the problem is very popular in the West, no ? And have to keep those 'aid' trucks to Syria rolling.

[Namutree]

This guy experienced the terrors of leftism first hand and lived to tell the tale: https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/i_was_beat_up_by_left_anarchists_in_greece/

 

 

So they initiated force and theft. They broke the NAP. I knew the left anarchists were not real anarchists, but I never knew they would do something that bad.

 

I wasnt seriously hurt, just kicked around a little, lots of bruises and little cuts. I am fine guys so don't worry. Just needed to share.

I bet he knows how to fix Europe.

 

What a whiner. He goes into a den of leftists and started advocating right wing ideas. It didn't go well, how shocking.

[Qistina]

Nothing wrong with muslim immigration as long as they leave their religion and culture at the border.

 

Well, you can leave your democracy and western values at their border...

[Barothmuk]

 

i want a nice future for our children were they do not need to worry about paying the monetary debts of their forefathers, where they can walk without fear of getting raped or shot to death, where they can trust their neighbours and fellow man, where they do not have the need to lock their doors, where they can build their own families in peace.

I think global climate change is going to make sure your children won't need to worry about any of those things.

 

Yay!

 

This guy experienced the terrors of leftism first hand and lived to tell the tale: https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/i_was_beat_up_by_left_anarchists_in_greece/

 

 

 

I don't usually use forums or Reddit, I usually just post comments on Ancap blogs like Molyneux or Cantwell's blog, but they didn't seem appropriate places to post my story. So here goes, I just wanted to share this with all of you.

 

Nov 3 I flew to Europe for a Eurotrip type tour. Not a guide or packaged deal, just going around by myself. I paid for half of the trip with the wages I earned over the last two years, my dad paid for the other half. I am 19, I guess that is normal starting college and all. (Before that I worked for my dad's company part time, so I guess you could say he paid for all of it, lol).

 

I did France and then Italy and then Greece next. I am an Ancap so I wanted to see anarchists in these places. Yes, I know they are different kinds of "anarchists" and not really full anarchists like us. I went to an anarchist book store in Italy and it had a lot of English books, but no Rothbard or Ancap. Like I said, I expected that, not a surprise.

 

I went to Greece, which everyone knows is famous for its revolutionary anarchism, its economic crisis and everything going on right now. Here I found directions for a local anarchist center. I went and didn't see anybody, but it was covered in graffiti, mostly in Greek so I couldn't read it. Whatever, I started taking pictures. Then some people came out and confronted me.

 

This should have been my first warning sign something was not right, because photography is not a crime. They were not violent, but they were not friendly, like asking who I was, what I wanted. They all spoke good English actually. Not uncommon in Greece. I said I was a tourist and an anarchist and I just wanted to take pictures. Then they got friendly and told me I should have asked first (but pictures are no NAP violation so I don't know why, but I didn't say anything) and they invited me inside.

 

We hung out for a while and smoked hash (there is no good dank in Europe as you might find out like in Cali, everyone smokes hash with tobacco which isn't as cool as it sounds). We started talking about politics and anarchism. I was trying to talk about the state, they were like yeah no doubt the state was bad. But they wanted to talk about capitalism, capitalism this and that. This is when we started to get into a debate.

 

I told them that what they called capitalism is different from the free market. They said capitalism is free markets. And I said I agreed. That is what I am saying. Real capitalism is free markets. And they said yes, that is what we are trying to get rid of. And I said no, but we don't even have that right now. We need more free markets. And everyone at the same time was like "nooo" we are anarchists, we are against capitalism. Anarchists oppose capitalism.

 

And I said but not anarcho-capitalists. Anarcho-capitalists are the anarchists who support capitalism. I had a fanny pack (yeah, lame I know) for my camera and in that I had this yellow and black bowtie (also super lame, it was a joke but I wasnt wearing it). And I said look, these are the Ancap colors, yellow and black, like versus the communist red and black. Well, these guys had a lot of red and black in the building already so I thought they would get it.

 

I think that is when it started to get a really bad vibe, really tense in the air. The free market thing was funny, we disagreed but I think they thought I was just confused. Everyone was uncomfortable now. Then someone said markets wont work with democracy. And I said exactly, that's it, democracy is against anarchism. And they kind of agreed, and said yes, we don't have real democracy, just governments, and we needed more democracy. I said no, we need less democracy, democracy is the enemy. And we need to end democracy to have anarchy. Then they were all like "noooo" again. You know that thing people do in groups when everyone all says "nooo" or expresses some disapproval at the same time.

 

And one of them said "but we do want to stop democracy" and then they kind of spoke back and forth in Greek. I didn't really understand it. And they asked me what I meant.

 

So I said okay, I had the floor, I was going to tell them about ancapism. And I tried to explain to them some Rothbard and Hoppe. I said the natural order in anarchy is that the best rise to the top, the market picks who is the best. They compete and are peaceful. They said what do we want instead of anarchy. I said we want private owners to own their own land and businesses, and to employ people. They said that is what we have now. I said no, it would be even better. One of the guys said it was like feudalism. And I said it is not feudalism.

 

Eventually one of the guys spoke up and I thought he was Greek, but he spoke English perfectly so he may have not been. He said he knew what anarcho-capitalism was and that we were basically fascists. He asked me if I thought everything should be private. And I said yes. And he asked me if I thought people were unequal. And I told him yes. And that not everyone would have equal rights. I said everyone has the right to own property and not be done aggression against. But that not everyone had to be treated equally by the owners. He said what about immigrants and racism. And I said that would not happen in a free market, but yes property owners could be racist if they wanted to. They had to respect property.

 

Then he called me a fascist again, and someone else said I was a fascist. And then they basically all started shouting fascist at me, and one of them grabbed me by the wrists. They pulled me out the door, it was up three floors, and basically drug me down the stairs on my back. It hurt really bad and I remember yelling "you're breaking the NAP" and things like that. "Stop initiating force against me." Then they kicked me around on the ground in the hallway, before they took my camera and threw me outside. I was crying and stuff, I just sat there. I was in shock because it was so sudden. Looking back there were warning signs though.

 

I think they felt bad for me and gave the camera back, but when I looked later they stole the memory card with all of my Greek photos.

 

So they initiated force and theft. They broke the NAP. I knew the left anarchists were not real anarchists, but I never knew they would do something that bad.

 

I wasnt seriously hurt, just kicked around a little, lots of bruises and little cuts. I am fine guys so don't worry. Just needed to share.

I bet he knows how to fix Europe.

 

God ancaps are embarrassing. Edited November 30, 2015 by Barothmuk

[BruceVC]

The last few pages has been fascinating. Nothing close to a solution(s) has even been attempted even the warning flags are there: rising national debt, failing demographics, centralization power and surveillance, lowered social trust, mass immigration, failing currencies, rise of right-wing parties and thought. Unless someone invents cheap and secure space travelling at lighting speed or fusion solves the energy problem, we will be heading towards an age of caesarism with preluding civil war, which will be quite bloody. 

 

Please don't prove Oswald Spengler right guys, i want a nice future for our children were they do not need to worry about paying the monetary debts of their forefathers, where they can walk without fear of getting raped or shot to death, where they can trust their neighbours and fellow man, where they do not have the need to lock their doors, where they can build their own families in peace. 

 

Its becoming clear you don't want a positive  view of the West and the current status of Western institutions like the EU

 

I spend time explaining that Western ideology is under no threat from the likes of Islamic extremism because basically your issues and various questions are a symptomatic concern from the consequences of the actions of ISIS and you dismiss my entire post with some annoying " you haven't answered any of my questions" 

 

There are plenty of people who will exaggerate and embellish the state of the West and its sustainability. People like Drowsy and Zora will tell you the West is doomed and our culture is on the path to serious change and forced evolution...so you need to just continue to support them in there posts. There view supports the whole  " chicken little ...the sky is falling " 

 

I operate in a world of facts, data and historical precedent. I won't  pander to your negative view of the reality of the EU and say how " bad things are " just so you feel vindicated on some level 

 

 

[BruceVC]

 

Nothing wrong with muslim immigration as long as they leave their religion and culture at the border.

 

Well, you can leave your democracy and western values at their border...

 

And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable  better life in the West

 

So what do you suggest? Should we do what you say and refuse to let anyone in to the EU,....maybe you right, it seems a bit cruel 

[Barothmuk]

And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable  better life in the West.

Just a heads up, if you ever want to know why you butt heads with so many posters here it's because of this kind of political analysis.

[BruceVC]

 

And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable  better life in the West.

Just a heads up, if you ever want to know why you butt heads with so many posters here it's because of this kind of political analysis.

 

Yes I understand a view of the reality of a political and social situation is not popular for some people on these forums, I have accepted that.

 

So lets take exactly what I said and tell me how its wrong

 

Are millions of people from Muslims countries not trying to immigrate to the West, is that not  true? Lets keep this simple and focus on what I said and what you disagree with 

[Barothmuk]

So lets take exactly what I said and tell me how its wrong.

You incorrectly believe that countries exist within a vacuum and that the success or failure of individual states has nothing to do with their relation to others.

 

Because of this you erroneously treat "Western" success as purely a product of "Western ideology" and thus falsely assume the solution to non-Western states' conditions is to simply adopt "Western values". This of course obfuscates the material conditions in which these states exist, and perhaps most importantly, denies the role economic domination and subordination enforced by these "Western" states plays.

 

We have already had discussion with Haiti being the example.

[Namutree]

Bruce, aren't you kind of ignoring the fact that many of those Muslims are heading over to Europe in no small part because the west actively contributed to it's destabilization.

 

Tell me Bruce: If society A drains all the water in society B, and then members from society B come over to society A to avoid the droughts; Would you claim that society A is wonderful cuz all the people of society B are immigrating to society A for water?

Edited November 30, 2015 by Namutree

[BruceVC]

 

So lets take exactly what I said and tell me how its wrong.

You incorrectly believe that countries exist within a vacuum and that the success or failure of individual states has nothing to do with their relation to others.

 

Because of this you erroneously treat "Western" success as purely a product of "Western ideology" and thus falsely assume the solution to non-Western states' conditions is to simply adopt "Western values". This of course obfuscates the material conditions in which these states exist, and perhaps most importantly, denies the role economic domination and subordination enforced by these "Western" states plays.

 

We have already had discussion with Haiti being the example.

 

You right, we have had this discussion before and I still dont agree with your general premise. Yes it has some truth to it and I won't deny that

 

So lets take your point for example "  perhaps most importantly, denies the role economic domination and subordination enforced by these Western states plays" 

 

So lets look at the African continent as an example of this view. Colonialism was  terrible system that looted the  natural resources of many African countries and undermined the sovereignty of many African countries 

 

But Colonialism for every single French and British African country, except for Algeria,  was ended during the late 1960's. And all the colonies were handed over to educated African leaders and the countries were handed over in working states. Yet without fail, except for Botswana, every single ex-British and French colony was bankrupt by 1980's and needed loans from  the IMF. But it wasn't Colonialism that caused this, this was a factor, but the main reason was mismanagement and lack of good governance by African leaders.

 

Nowadays we have rising stars on the African continent, certain countries doing really well to transform there economies and uplift there citizens

 

Yet we have about 10-12 countries that are truly in a benighted state and this responsibility lies with the respective leaders...like Zimbabwe and Uganda 

 

So in summary if all African leaders  practiced good governance  and  maintained things like government institutions the African continent wouldn't be in the state its in. This is not about the West but actually about Africa and transforming the economy. Also the AU is an abysmal failure at managing the affairs of the continent and of course this doesn't help with economic and social upliftment of the overall continent

 

I don't know much about Haiti so I can't comment 

Edited November 30, 2015 by BruceVC

[Darkpriest]

 

 

Nothing wrong with muslim immigration as long as they leave their religion and culture at the border.

 

Well, you can leave your democracy and western values at their border...

 

And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable  better life in the West

 

So what do you suggest? Should we do what you say and refuse to let anyone in to the EU,....maybe you right, it seems a bit cruel 

 

 

Yeah, well, the thing is, they are coming for expected better life that for them means simply put, more money.

 

The problem is, they are coming with culture and historical baggage of prejudices, grudges etc. that stopped them from becoming rich and prosperous.

 

Imagine what will happen, when they will discover that 95% will have to work for minimum wage in countries, where they will get a small apartment for which they will pay 2/3rds of one persons income for monthly rent, then comes the cost food, different weather conditions, different culture, etc.

 

Our society rose up on the idea that "no type of work dishonors a person doing it". These people might not feel the same way, and when children of these people will see a relative poverty in which they live, they will act the same as the current days failed 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants from 70s-80s.

 

EU economies are at a point where they cannot sustain that walfare state, which they wanted to create those 20 years ago. Germany saving, France cutting social expenditure, UK cutting support for immigrants social benefits, etc.

 

Next economic crisis will kill those states, if they will now bloat expenditures on defense policies and social expenditures on immigrants. Wait for the next wave of elections in EU and the left winged parties will see a big decline. Even in Germany parties that had near 0 impact, like AfD, become visible and impactful.

 

Merkel will pay most likely with a loss in next elections.  (already perdiction polls show it will be extremly difficult for her to be a winner)

 

UK first time ever reports that UK citizens want to leave EU (over 50% in the referendum polls want to leave it)

 

CEE countries getting nationalist and right winged parties at the helms, which already creates tensions within EU in regards to immigrants (mainly Poland and Hungary)

 

We are heading in the direction of a clash, where the result will be either, they will assimilate to our standards (I really doubt, considering they didn't for the last couple of decades and they bring distinctive beliefs and culture from their home region) or we will see more riots, increased crime rates, and eventually failing states due to inability to control it.

 

If in the next 10 years we won't solve the issue, the next economic crisis will kill EU. (major ones like to happen every 20 or so years)

[BruceVC]

Bruce, aren't you kind of ignoring the fact that many of those Muslims are heading over to Europe in no small part because the west actively contributed to it's destabilization.

 

Tell me Bruce: If society A drains all the water in society B, and then members from society B come over to society A to avoid the droughts; Would you claim that society A is wonderful cuz all the people of society B are immigrating to society A for water?

This is an important question " the west actively contributed to it's destabilization " ...I don't believe this but I understand others do 

 

Its simple really to resolve thius , do you think the Arab Spring was caused by the West?

Because the root  cause of almost all this instability is a consequence of the Arab Spring...this includes Syria, Libya and the rise of ISIS 

 

And yes I am well aware of the contribution to the instability of the ME that the invasion of Iraq caused but  this is  not as destabilizing as the Arab Spring has been

 

So then  we need to ask again " is the West responsible for the Arab Spring " ?

 

If you think it is then yes the West is responsible for the fact millions of Muslims are trying to immigrate to Western countries, I don't support this but if you do then maybe you can explain how the West is the cause for this social and political phenomena that swept through the Middle East and Northern Africa ?

Edited November 30, 2015 by BruceVC

[Barothmuk]

I'm afraid my knowledge of modern Africa is quite basic so you'll have to forgive my generalities.

 

So lets look at the African continent as an example of this view. Colonialism was  terrible system that looted the natural resources of many African countries and undermined the sovereignty of many African countries 

 

But Colonialism for every single French and British African country, except for Algeria,  was ended during the late 1960's.

And yet the consequences of colonialism and the conditions that brought it about were not.

 

You'd have to be pretty stupid to believe centuries of political destabilization, subordination, exploitation and destitute poverty could be done away with overnight, and you'd have to be pretty ignorant to assume after the 1960's the former-colonial powers didn't still have a vested interest in the continent.

 

Off the top of my head look at Patrice Lumumba. Somewhat progressive guy, anti-colonial, democratically elected; unfortunately a little too left and certainly a little too cosy with the Soviets so America backed a coup, overthrew him and installed Mobuto Sese Seko, one of the most corrupt leaders in Africa. Not that that matters though because he was their guy.

[Darkpriest]

yes, we were responsibly for branding it such and trying to tie with our historical movmenet of "spring of nations". Should we not intervene, they would probably die out fairly fast, because majority was not focused around one common idea for the building of a nation... it was more of a lot of smaller groups having even vastly different interests but with one main obstacle, being the current leader of a country.

 

You need to understand that such movements will win on their own, if there is really backing in the nation for it...

 

Look at our spring of nations, look at the changes in 1989 in soviet block... you do not have to look far.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So lets look at the African continent as an example of this view. Colonialism was  terrible system that looted the  natural resources of many African countries and undermined the sovereignty of many African countries 

 

But Colonialism for every single French and British African country, except for Algeria,  was ended during the late 1960's. And all the colonies were handed over to educated African leaders and the countries were handed over in working states. Yet without fail, except for Botswana, every single ex-British and French colony was bankrupt by 1980's and needed loans from  the IMF. But it wasn't Colonialism that caused this, this was a factor, but the main reason was mismanagement and lack of good governance by African leaders.

Again you assume a vacuum, this time with Africa being isolated to Africa after colonial powers left. The material conditions of post-colonial Africa were not geared towards the creation of self-sustaining states, they were built on the foundations of colonies supporting a colonial power with various resources and in turn received financial and governmental(or military) support from said power. In addition, many former colonies consisted of tribes that did not have the best relations and as such viewed each other as enemies. With this in mind, its utterly ridiculous to assume that said former colonies could transform into Europe 2: African Boogaloo in two decades simply by imitating the ideology of Western States with very different (current) material conditions who themselves did not become what they were in a period of twenty years.

 

The same holds true for the ME. You have a region populated by antagonistic groups whose main resource is oil exports and is influenced by outside powers in various, often neurotic, ways. Middle Eastern states can not be radically changed simply by adopting a "Western Ideology", which itself is an unrealistic expectation given current conditions, and will not restructure themselves into states with the same living standards simply by applying a new coat of ideology.

 

I don't know much about Haiti so I can't comment.

When has that ever stopped you before?

[Meshugger]

 

The last few pages has been fascinating. Nothing close to a solution(s) has even been attempted even the warning flags are there: rising national debt, failing demographics, centralization power and surveillance, lowered social trust, mass immigration, failing currencies, rise of right-wing parties and thought. Unless someone invents cheap and secure space travelling at lighting speed or fusion solves the energy problem, we will be heading towards an age of caesarism with preluding civil war, which will be quite bloody. 

 

Please don't prove Oswald Spengler right guys, i want a nice future for our children were they do not need to worry about paying the monetary debts of their forefathers, where they can walk without fear of getting raped or shot to death, where they can trust their neighbours and fellow man, where they do not have the need to lock their doors, where they can build their own families in peace. 

 

Its becoming clear you don't want a positive  view of the West and the current status of Western institutions like the EU

 

I spend time explaining that Western ideology is under no threat from the likes of Islamic extremism because basically your issues and various questions are a symptomatic concern from the consequences of the actions of ISIS and you dismiss my entire post with some annoying " you haven't answered any of my questions" 

 

There are plenty of people who will exaggerate and embellish the state of the West and its sustainability. People like Drowsy and Zora will tell you the West is doomed and our culture is on the path to serious change and forced evolution...so you need to just continue to support them in there posts. There view supports the whole  " chicken little ...the sky is falling " 

 

I operate in a world of facts, data and historical precedent. I won't  pander to your negative view of the reality of the EU and say how " bad things are " just so you feel vindicated on some level 

 

 

 

 

You refuse to answer because you cannot provide any, then give an answer about ISIS that has nothing to do with the original questions and then pat yourself on the back that you have the facts at hand of which can refute my original points but still somehow fail to provide them.

 

This kind of behaviour is anything but western in spirit.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with muslim immigration as long as they leave their religion and culture at the border.

 

Well, you can leave your democracy and western values at their border...

 

And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable  better life in the West

 

So what do you suggest? Should we do what you say and refuse to let anyone in to the EU,....maybe you right, it seems a bit cruel 

 

 

Yeah, well, the thing is, they are coming for expected better life that for them means simply put, more money.

 

The problem is, they are coming with culture and historical baggage of prejudices, grudges etc. that stopped them from becoming rich and prosperous.

 

Imagine what will happen, when they will discover that 95% will have to work for minimum wage in countries, where they will get a small apartment for which they will pay 2/3rds of one persons income for monthly rent, then comes the cost food, different weather conditions, different culture, etc.

 

Our society rose up on the idea that "no type of work dishonors a person doing it". These people might not feel the same way, and when children of these people will see a relative poverty in which they live, they will act the same as the current days failed 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants from 70s-80s.

 

EU economies are at a point where they cannot sustain that walfare state, which they wanted to create those 20 years ago. Germany saving, France cutting social expenditure, UK cutting support for immigrants social benefits, etc.

 

Next economic crisis will kill those states, if they will now bloat expenditures on defense policies and social expenditures on immigrants. Wait for the next wave of elections in EU and the left winged parties will see a big decline. Even in Germany parties that had near 0 impact, like AfD, become visible and impactful.

 

Merkel will pay most likely with a loss in next elections.  (already perdiction polls show it will be extremly difficult for her to be a winner)

 

UK first time ever reports that UK citizens want to leave EU (over 50% in the referendum polls want to leave it)

 

CEE countries getting nationalist and right winged parties at the helms, which already creates tensions within EU in regards to immigrants (mainly Poland and Hungary)

 

We are heading in the direction of a clash, where the result will be either, they will assimilate to our standards (I really doubt, considering they didn't for the last couple of decades and they bring distinctive beliefs and culture from their home region) or we will see more riots, increased crime rates, and eventually failing states due to inability to control it.

 

If in the next 10 years we won't solve the issue, the next economic crisis will kill EU. (major ones like to happen every 20 or so years)

 

Yes I don't disagree with some of your points

 

For example if indeed the immigrants coming to the EU think they can live off social grants and a welfare state then there integration into the West will be difficult ..if not doomed to failure

 

So I expect the majority of refugees to contribute towards the economies of EU countries they  immigrate to, they need to pay taxes for example

 

This should be understood and accepted by all 

[HoonDing]

Yurop's lost

 

get out and move to Pitcairn while you can

[Darkpriest]

 

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with muslim immigration as long as they leave their religion and culture at the border.

 

Well, you can leave your democracy and western values at their border...

 

And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable  better life in the West

 

So what do you suggest? Should we do what you say and refuse to let anyone in to the EU,....maybe you right, it seems a bit cruel 

 

 

Yeah, well, the thing is, they are coming for expected better life that for them means simply put, more money.

 

The problem is, they are coming with culture and historical baggage of prejudices, grudges etc. that stopped them from becoming rich and prosperous.

 

Imagine what will happen, when they will discover that 95% will have to work for minimum wage in countries, where they will get a small apartment for which they will pay 2/3rds of one persons income for monthly rent, then comes the cost food, different weather conditions, different culture, etc.

 

Our society rose up on the idea that "no type of work dishonors a person doing it". These people might not feel the same way, and when children of these people will see a relative poverty in which they live, they will act the same as the current days failed 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants from 70s-80s.

 

EU economies are at a point where they cannot sustain that walfare state, which they wanted to create those 20 years ago. Germany saving, France cutting social expenditure, UK cutting support for immigrants social benefits, etc.

 

Next economic crisis will kill those states, if they will now bloat expenditures on defense policies and social expenditures on immigrants. Wait for the next wave of elections in EU and the left winged parties will see a big decline. Even in Germany parties that had near 0 impact, like AfD, become visible and impactful.

 

Merkel will pay most likely with a loss in next elections.  (already perdiction polls show it will be extremly difficult for her to be a winner)

 

UK first time ever reports that UK citizens want to leave EU (over 50% in the referendum polls want to leave it)

 

CEE countries getting nationalist and right winged parties at the helms, which already creates tensions within EU in regards to immigrants (mainly Poland and Hungary)

 

We are heading in the direction of a clash, where the result will be either, they will assimilate to our standards (I really doubt, considering they didn't for the last couple of decades and they bring distinctive beliefs and culture from their home region) or we will see more riots, increased crime rates, and eventually failing states due to inability to control it.

 

If in the next 10 years we won't solve the issue, the next economic crisis will kill EU. (major ones like to happen every 20 or so years)

 

Yes I don't disagree with some of your points

 

For example if indeed the immigrants coming to the EU think they can live off social grants and a welfare state then there integration into the West will be difficult ..if not doomed to failure

 

So I expect the majority of refugees to contribute towards the economies of EU countries they  immigrate to, they need to pay taxes for example

 

This should be understood and accepted by all 

 

 

Like it did for the last 20-30 years?

 

What makes you think that they will suddenly change their way of life and mentality?

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with muslim immigration as long as they leave their religion and culture at the border.

 

Well, you can leave your democracy and western values at their border...

 

And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable  better life in the West

 

So what do you suggest? Should we do what you say and refuse to let anyone in to the EU,....maybe you right, it seems a bit cruel 

 

 

Yeah, well, the thing is, they are coming for expected better life that for them means simply put, more money.

 

The problem is, they are coming with culture and historical baggage of prejudices, grudges etc. that stopped them from becoming rich and prosperous.

 

Imagine what will happen, when they will discover that 95% will have to work for minimum wage in countries, where they will get a small apartment for which they will pay 2/3rds of one persons income for monthly rent, then comes the cost food, different weather conditions, different culture, etc.

 

Our society rose up on the idea that "no type of work dishonors a person doing it". These people might not feel the same way, and when children of these people will see a relative poverty in which they live, they will act the same as the current days failed 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants from 70s-80s.

 

EU economies are at a point where they cannot sustain that walfare state, which they wanted to create those 20 years ago. Germany saving, France cutting social expenditure, UK cutting support for immigrants social benefits, etc.

 

Next economic crisis will kill those states, if they will now bloat expenditures on defense policies and social expenditures on immigrants. Wait for the next wave of elections in EU and the left winged parties will see a big decline. Even in Germany parties that had near 0 impact, like AfD, become visible and impactful.

 

Merkel will pay most likely with a loss in next elections.  (already perdiction polls show it will be extremly difficult for her to be a winner)

 

UK first time ever reports that UK citizens want to leave EU (over 50% in the referendum polls want to leave it)

 

CEE countries getting nationalist and right winged parties at the helms, which already creates tensions within EU in regards to immigrants (mainly Poland and Hungary)

 

We are heading in the direction of a clash, where the result will be either, they will assimilate to our standards (I really doubt, considering they didn't for the last couple of decades and they bring distinctive beliefs and culture from their home region) or we will see more riots, increased crime rates, and eventually failing states due to inability to control it.

 

If in the next 10 years we won't solve the issue, the next economic crisis will kill EU. (major ones like to happen every 20 or so years)

 

Yes I don't disagree with some of your points

 

For example if indeed the immigrants coming to the EU think they can live off social grants and a welfare state then there integration into the West will be difficult ..if not doomed to failure

 

So I expect the majority of refugees to contribute towards the economies of EU countries they  immigrate to, they need to pay taxes for example

 

This should be understood and accepted by all 

 

 

Like it did for the last 20-30 years?

 

What makes you think that they will suddenly change their way of life and mentality?

 

I don't have the answer to that except  that I doubt Merkel envisioned an economic and social  reality where millions of immigrants would be invited to EU countries and not be expected to work and contribute towards the economy ?

 

I have seen no evidence from the various  interviews with immigrants where they have said  " we want to come to the EU and live off social grants" 

 

But to be fair I also haven't seen any interviews where immigrants say " we want to find jobs and contribute " ....so I have to say it is assumed the majority of immigrants will  need to  work in the new EU countries?

 

Surly this is logical?

  

[Darkpriest]

Only some men will find work while their women will be sitting home and breeding kids, to get social benefits. The men in vast majority of cases will be working some minimum wage jobs, which will not pay off the cost of sustaning a whole familiy by the state.

 

The economy simply does not have room for extra 300-500k jobs out of thin air.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Darkpriest