Attacks in Paris

[Gfted1]

Do you mean for me or in the USA ?

BruceVC has nothing to do with my statement. The World itself has not done enough to accommodate Islam and hence they are left with no choice other than to attack civilians at random. Duh.

 

When you sound like the abused in search of justifications, maybe it's time for some introspection, eh?

[BruceVC]

 

Do you mean for me or in the USA ?

BruceVC has nothing to do with my statement. The World itself has not done enough to accommodate Islam and hence they are left with no choice other than to attack civilians at random. Duh.

 

When you sound like the abused in search of justifications, maybe it's time for some introspection, eh?

 

Now thats passive-aggressive 

 

Sorry if I sounded confused ..lots on my mind 

[Darkpriest]

Well technically it's been a while since a large conflict. Say what you want but we live in the most peaceful times in human history. It may change however if radical nationalists will start steering the global politics.

 

Radicalism is bad in any form. So far we've been in power of fairly radical left wingers. Ideology should never be both the goal and driving force. Ideology should be a destination but the driving force should always be a sensible pragmatism and slower pace of any cultural changes.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

Well technically it's been a while since a large conflict. Say what you want but we live in the most peaceful times in human history. It may change however if radical nationalists will start steering the global politics.

 

Radicalism is bad in any form. So far we've been in power of fairly radical left wingers. Ideology should never be both the goal and driving force. Ideology should be a destination but the driving force should always be a sensible pragmatism and slower pace of any cultural changes.

Dark do you think I'm passive-aggressive?  I don't feel that way and we debate all the time but Drowsy says I am?

[Rostere]

Okay. So let's see how people around the world are reacting to this.

 

"We are all Israelis now", "Finally Europe has it's own 9/11"

 

"Welcome to World War Three"

 

 

Great guys, so I would wish France very welcome to WW3, a.k.a. "The War on Terror Islam". Finally France can start meddling in the Middle East more, because that's what started will solve this.

 

30 years ago, political Islamism was not on the map. But let's overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran, let's support Osama Bin Laden, let's support Saddam Hussein, let's support Hamas, let's support the Syrian Rebels, let's shoot people semi-randomly from drones, let's detain and torture people without due process, let's prop up Egypt's corrupt dictatorship and hope that does not create extremist revolutionary groups, let's prop up Saudi Arabia so that they can pay for extremist mosques in Europe, let's create all sorts of wars to create a refugee crisis in Europe. And of course, let's support land theft and ethnic cleansing in Palestine, surely nobody will fight back to protect their rights. I mean, it's not as if anyone would pick up weapons if Arabs would declare an Islamic State in New York, declare race laws and start to put Americans in ghettos.

 

I think it's sick and perverted that the same people whose wars and short-sighted meddling have caused this crisis are saying that we must meet this with more war and more meddling. They are conjuring up an enemy which did not exist before their interventions. This is similar to how colonialism laid the perfect groundwork for Communism in colonialized countries.

[BruceVC]

Okay. So let's see how people around the world are reacting to this.

 

"We are all Israelis now", "Finally Europe has it's own 9/11"

 

"Welcome to World War Three"

 

 

Great guys, so I would wish France very welcome to WW3, a.k.a. "The War on Terror Islam". Finally France can start meddling in the Middle East more, because that's what started will solve this.

 

30 years ago, political Islamism was not on the map. But let's overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran, let's support Osama Bin Laden, let's support Saddam Hussein, let's support Hamas, let's support the Syrian Rebels, let's shoot people semi-randomly from drones, let's detain and torture people without due process, let's prop up Egypt's corrupt dictatorship and hope that does not create extremist revolutionary groups, let's prop up Saudi Arabia so that they can pay for extremist mosques in Europe, let's create all sorts of wars to create a refugee crisis in Europe. And of course, let's support land theft and ethnic cleansing in Palestine, surely nobody will fight back to protect their rights. I mean, it's not as if anyone would pick up weapons if Arabs would declare an Islamic State in New York, declare race laws and start to put Americans in ghettos.

 

I think it's sick and perverted that the same people whose wars and short-sighted meddling have caused this crisis are saying that we must meet this with more war and more meddling. They are conjuring up an enemy which did not exist before their interventions. This is similar to how colonialism laid the perfect groundwork for Communism in colonialized countries.

Its egregious and full of hyperbole ....no  I don't take it seriously 

 

 

But  I dont get why you bringing the USA into this...are you comparing the USA  to ISIS ( sorry if I have mistaken you ...Im stoned   )

[Rostere]

Its egregious and full of hyperbole ....no  I don't take it seriously 

 

But  I dont get why you bringing the USA into this...are you comparing the USA  to ISIS ( sorry if I have mistaken you ...Im stoned   )

 

Short version for stoned people: don't escalate a fight by conventional means against an enemy such as this. You can't fight evil with stupidity.

 

15 year on and all of the US' meddling in the ME has only served to destabilize the entire place and make it a playground for extremists such as ISIS. The US wanted to fight Al Qaeda but neither nation-building in Afghanistan (which is now failing utterly, as shown in the amount of Afghans migrating to Europe) nor the completely useless invasion of Iraq had anything to do with this, and both of these actions have served to increase the support for extremist Islamism, not the other way around. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. The enemy of your friend is not necessarily your enemy, and so on.

[Qistina]

 

By that reasoning we should expel all muslims from EU, because they create disharmony with the cultural background of the EU continent... I mean, how can you even compare Hate Speech leading to violence and mass murders vs. publishing a book? What is in it that creates disharmony? I mean I'd like to try to understand it... I just can't see it being anywhere on the same level of threat to civil population (knowing the christian rhetoric and how their leaders present themselves).

 

I was going to respond about the number of ISIS fighters from the west and how a huuuge majority of them are second or third generation arabs living in self-segregated ghettos (http://www.rferl.org/contentinfographics/foreign-fighters-syria-iraq-is-isis-isil-infographic/26584940.html) but then you posted a jem like that. Don't ever leave, you're the gift that keeps on giving.

 

Yes it may seem we are being critical of only Muslims who spread hate speech but I agree if the law in Malaysia says the Malaysian Bible needs to be banned then yes a raid would be justified

 

Malaysia is a Muslim country and like the Middle East if the government thinks a bible is creating disharmony then ban it

 

I'm not religious so I would leave this decision up to the actual governments. Guys we should understand this because if France does decide to close down certain Mosques there will be major resistance from certain Muslims in France and we should be consistent in our view that governments have a right to close down religious buildings but we cant complain if Malaysia decided to ban a bible as they should also have this right 

 

 

 

Malaysian police consist of all races and all religion, there are many Christian police officers, as well Hindus and Buddhists, i don't see why you guys don't understand that it is not religious matter, not about Muslim vs Christian. The Church is against the law, then they against the law. We have Constitution, we follow the law. It is not religious issue unless someone make it so.

 

Those Christians in that church not only against the law, but also playing sentiments, take advantage of Islamophobia, draging international attention making my country look bad, they know the world sentiment toward Islam, they use it. But they forgot that the law eforcement is not only Muslims. And not all Christians agree with their action either.

 

Just because they are Christians in Muslim country they can do whatever they want, disobey the law and make everything a religious issue?

Edited November 16, 2015 by Qistina

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The middle east needs some freedom. We should bomb them and prop up dictatorsgreat allies who will keep them under surveillance while selling us oilparticipating in the global economy.

[BruceVC]

 

Its egregious and full of hyperbole ....no  I don't take it seriously 

 

But  I dont get why you bringing the USA into this...are you comparing the USA  to ISIS ( sorry if I have mistaken you ...Im stoned   )

 

Short version for stoned people: don't escalate a fight by conventional means against an enemy such as this. You can't fight evil with stupidity.

 

15 year on and all of the US' meddling in the ME has only served to destabilize the entire place and make it a playground for extremists such as ISIS. The US wanted to fight Al Qaeda but neither nation-building in Afghanistan (which is now failing utterly, as shown in the amount of Afghans migrating to Europe) nor the completely useless invasion of Iraq had anything to do with this, and both of these actions have served to increase the support for extremist Islamism, not the other way around. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. The enemy of your friend is not necessarily your enemy, and so on.rR

Ros you are a smart guy with a good perspective  so I generally always read what you say...but I think you being a little harsh here 

 

I see things very differently and with a different lens...

 

• You can't blame the USA for the Arab Spring and much of the general bedlam in the ME is a result of the consequences of that
• The Gulf \Sunni states seem fine and so is  Iran which is at least some stability 
• Yes Iraq was a mistake 

 

But except for ISIS I don't think its that bad ?

[Volourn]

People defending these murderous scumbags by whining about how people said mean things about Islam is hilarious. Mean things are worse than blowing and shooting people over your religion.  Some ****adoo religious nut in the US goes around verbally harassing people and people want him dead and  blame all  label the whole religion with the same brush. Same when perfverted priests are caught molesting boys - the whole religion is labeled.

 

But, criticize  Islam and you are evil and intolerant. The west bends over backwards to appease Isla. It doesn't works. The moderate Muslims are not the problem. Quite frankly they are irrelevant. It's the extremists but saying stuff like 'what they did was bad but..' is a major red flag for the writer/speaker being a major douchecanoe. There is no buts. PERIOD.

 

As for banning 'hate speech' or books. That is the coward's way. If someone is making actual threats arrest them as that already is a crime I presume. No need to make up bullcrap laws or drag out 'martial law' or some nonsense. It is ridiculous.

 

\No to appeasement. No to nazism.

 

And, no,   West 'intervering' is not why these guys do what they do.   These extremists kill way more Muslims than Westerners. They hate Muslims more. The facts are in the numbers. Not the feelz.

 

 

Also, it is also a double standard too. People try to claim that there is anti Western hatred b/c of what the West has done and how much 'hate' the West shows towards Muslims (even thoguh, again, the West treats Muslims better than the ME Muslim countries do) but did you ever stop to think that Westerns who hate Islam do so b/c  Islam constantl;y spews their hate speech and murders them en mass in defense of their religion all the while they murder fellow Muslims b/c they worship at a different time of the day? COME ON.

 

It can work both ways.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Volourn

[Gfted1]

Just because they are Christians in Muslim country they can do whatever they want, disobey the law and make everything a religious issue?

Seems to work for Islam.

[BruceVC]

People defending these murderous scumbags by whining about how people said mean things about Islam is hilarious. Mean things are worse than blowing and shooting people over your religion.  Some ****adoo religious nut in the US goes around verbally harassing people and people want him dead and  blame all  label the whole religion with the same brush. Same when perfverted priests are caught molesting boys - the whole religion is labeled.

 

But, criticize  Islam and you are evil and intolerant. The west bends over backwards to appease Isla. It doesn't works. The moderate Muslims are not the problem. Quite frankly they are irrelevant. It's the extremists but saying stuff like 'what they did was bad but..' is a major red flag for the writer/speaker being a major douchecanoe. There is no buts. PERIOD.

 

As for banning 'hate speech' or books. That is the coward's way. If someone is making actual threats arrest them as that already is a crime I presume. No need to make up bullcrap laws or drag out 'martial law' or some nonsense. It is ridiculous.

 

\No to appeasement. No to nazism.

 

And, no,   West 'intervering' is not why these guys do what they do.   These extremists kill way more Muslims than Westerners. They hate Muslims more. The facts are in the numbers. Not the feelz.

Yes you make some good points but Volo do you think you would be so openly critical of Islam if you didn't live in Canada ? You seem verrrrrrrrrrry  far away from the action 

 

 

But its funny because whenever  I discuss ISIS in my country I have to always say " and I don't mean all Muslims " or people phone in and say " I am being Islamaphobic " 

Edited November 16, 2015 by BruceVC

[Darkpriest]

Well a lot of people criticize various EU countries and their policies towards "refugees", meanwhile in the land of "Freedom"

 

http://news.yahoo.com/four-u-states-shut-doors-syrian-refugees-paris-165757926.html

[Qistina]

 

As for banning 'hate speech' or books. That is the coward's way. If someone is making actual threats arrest them as that already is a crime I presume. No need to make up bullcrap laws or drag out 'martial law' or some nonsense. It is ridiculous.

 

 

 

Do you know that Malaysian Constitution was made by British? That is how we gain independence. The Britsih say "you want independent? You must follow Constitution we made", we say "alright!", we gain independence through table talk. If you want to blame, blame the British, we follow the Constitution they made.

 

It is the British who put in "Islam is the Constitutional religion" Article 3, they also put in "everyone have a right to practice their own religion in harmony" at Article 11 of Malaysian Constitution.

 

This was written by British, not us...

http://www.slideshare.net/mbl2020/constitution-of-malaysia

 

This is how we gain independence from British

Edited November 16, 2015 by Qistina

[Volourn]

"Yes you make some good points but Volo do you think you would be so openly critical of Islam if you didn't live in Canada ? You seem verrrrrrrrrrry  far away from the action "

 

I would not know. I'd probably be a different person if I lived elsewhere. That's a silly 'what if' scenario.

 

 

"Do you know that Malaysian Constitution was made by British? That is how we gain independence. The Britsih say "you want independent? You must follow Constitution we made", we say "alright!", we gain independence through table talk. If you want to blame, blame the British, we follow the Constitution they made."

 

Did you know I'm not the biggest fan of the Britain. Afterall, they actually were what people accuse the US of- an evil piece of crap nazi country that terrorized innocent people will profit. They are the reason why slavery was ever an issue in the US in the first place for example.

 

The fact that britian made some consittution for you years ago doesn't change the fact that your 'book banning' law NOW is evil to the core. Theyw ere evil to  make laws like that and your country is evil keeping it. PERIOD.

[Qistina]

There is no book burning, what are you talking about? The book is banned, and consfisticated, there is no burning. All books must be authorized before it can be sold or distribute freely. Not all bans are forever, the ban can be lifted. Books also can be edited if want to lift the ban. I am not a lawyer so i don't know all these legal kicking and punching, i just stated my general knowledge about my country law.

 

You don't like the British? I don't like them too. No one like the British, they are imperialist. But we gain independence in diplomatic way...we can't fight them because we don't have modern weapons, the indepedence fighters are all relying on weapons leftovers by the Japanese and Communist....we cannot fight with might, so we fight with talk...

Edited November 16, 2015 by Qistina

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

Its egregious and full of hyperbole ....no  I don't take it seriously 

 

But  I dont get why you bringing the USA into this...are you comparing the USA  to ISIS ( sorry if I have mistaken you ...Im stoned   )

 

Short version for stoned people: don't escalate a fight by conventional means against an enemy such as this. You can't fight evil with stupidity.

 

15 year on and all of the US' meddling in the ME has only served to destabilize the entire place and make it a playground for extremists such as ISIS. The US wanted to fight Al Qaeda but neither nation-building in Afghanistan (which is now failing utterly, as shown in the amount of Afghans migrating to Europe) nor the completely useless invasion of Iraq had anything to do with this, and both of these actions have served to increase the support for extremist Islamism, not the other way around. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. The enemy of your friend is not necessarily your enemy, and so on.rR

Ros you are a smart guy with a good perspective  so I generally always read what you say...but I think you being a little harsh here 

 

I see things very differently and with a different lens...

 

• You can't blame the USA for the Arab Spring and much of the general bedlam in the ME is a result of the consequences of that
• The Gulf \Sunni states seem fine and so is  Iran which is at least some stability 
• Yes Iraq was a mistake 

 

But except for ISIS I don't think its that bad ?

 

 

Like it or not, one of the reasons, why Europe is now obliterated by refugees from Africa is dead Kadaffi. He was a prime example of an despotic dictator, but he was the biggest buffer for Europe. Killing him, and letting the country in chaos was very very stupid move... Now we have two "legitimate" governments in Libya, and both of them are profiting from this business...

[Mamoulian War]

"Yes you make some good points but Volo do you think you would be so openly critical of Islam if you didn't live in Canada ? You seem verrrrrrrrrrry  far away from the action "

 

I would not know. I'd probably be a different person if I lived elsewhere. That's a silly 'what if' scenario.

 

 

"Do you know that Malaysian Constitution was made by British? That is how we gain independence. The Britsih say "you want independent? You must follow Constitution we made", we say "alright!", we gain independence through table talk. If you want to blame, blame the British, we follow the Constitution they made."

 

Did you know I'm not the biggest fan of the Britain. Afterall, they actually were what people accuse the US of- an evil piece of crap nazi country that terrorized innocent people will profit. They are the reason why slavery was ever an issue in the US in the first place for example.

 

The fact that britian made some consittution for you years ago doesn't change the fact that your 'book banning' law NOW is evil to the core. Theyw ere evil to  make laws like that and your country is evil keeping it. PERIOD.

 

Well because something like that never happens in US...

 

/sarcasm off

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_commonly_challenged_books_in_the_United_States

 

http://www.ala.org/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks

 

 

Many communities have a formal process by which a citizen may challenge the public availability of a work.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Mamoulian War

[Qistina]

Malaysian people is diplomatic people, Malays are Muslims of course, but if you think we are barbarians you guys wrong, only the western invaders call us barbarians, the Japanese invaders are brutal but they still respect us, the west however are the most evil, up to today the west still playing with sentiments calling us barbarians "Muslim Terrorist" bullcrap. The Japanese left us and WW2 is over, but the west left us but still playing the same stupid propagandas about all races...that's the difference...up to today the west think we are backward people and barbarians...not only that, the west also playing with religion issues like in medieval time

Edited November 16, 2015 by Qistina

[Amentep]

Book Challenges are usually in the form of books offered through public resources through a public, high school or elementary library, and not a "ban" in the sense that the book is unavailable to a private citizen through a private purchase with a private seller.

 

That said, I thought the Malaysia thing had to do with use of the word Allah by Christians to refer to God which caused some bible translations - but not all - to be seizable when the courts declared that Allah was a term specific to Islam and couldn't be used by other religions to refer to God (and which of course doesn't effect the Buddhist and Hindus).  Or is something different going on that I missed news of?

[Rostere]

People are forgetting that censorship was commonplace in Western countries 60-80 years ago. How long has it been since "insulting the king" and "insulting god" were removed as crimes in European countries? Carl Laemmle's filmatisation of "All Quiet on the Western Front" is one shocking example of 20th century censorship in Europe. It's absurd that we claim that the same things our grandfathers did is suddenly "absolute evil" - we should strive to understand what is the logical next step for the less developed countries, like an older sibling guiding a younger sibling through their life choices. Let's just acknowledge that some countries are not as advanced as others. We should aim to help these societies progress along the same lines as we did, one step at a time. Everything cannot be achieved at once, and quick and forceful "solutions" are often foolish. We can't expect all countries to suddenly adapt 21st century free speech, when many are effectively living in the 20th or 19th century as far as social politics go.

[BruceVC]

Malaysian people is diplomatic people, Malays are Muslims of course, but if you think we are barbarians you guys wrong, only the western invaders call us barbarians, the Japanese invaders are brutal but they still respect us, the west however are the most evil, up to today the west still playing with sentiments calling us barbarians "Muslim Terrorist" bullcrap. The Japanese left us and WW2 is over, but the west left us but still playing the same stupid propagandas about all races...that's the differenc/e...up to today the west think we are backward people and barbarians...not only that, the west also playing with religion issues like in medieval time/

I have never ever heard of Malaysians being called Barbarians ?

 

We refer to murderous groups like ISIS or Boko Haram as savages but not Malaysians as we do business there  

[Qistina]

Book Challenges are usually in the form of books offered through public resources through a public, high school or elementary library, and not a "ban" in the sense that the book is unavailable to a private citizen through a private purchase with a private seller.

 

That said, I thought the Malaysia thing had to do with use of the word Allah by Christians to refer to God which caused some bible translations - but not all - to be seizable when the courts declared that Allah was a term specific to Islam and couldn't be used by other religions to refer to God (and which of course doesn't effect the Buddhist and Hindus).  Or is something different going on that I missed news of?

 

I already explain in other post, but i summarieze here

 

There is a movement of some group of Christians and some liberal NGO, they want to combine religions, pluralism they call it. So this wrong translation of Bible is used for their propaganda. They want to translate the word "God" in Bible into "Allah" in Malay translation in which wrong. "God" in Malay is "Tuhan", "Allah" is a name of a God, a Muslim God, the God of Bible named YHWH. They publish this Bible translation. So it create confusion and making people uneasy. But they keep playing sentiments and it become uncontrolled, desperately they play Islamophobia and try to take international attention. When CNN got it, they just twist everything.

 

The translation is WRONG in many ways. We did debate about it, we say the word God in Malay is Tuhan, if they want to translate it then translate it to Tuhan, but they insist want to translate it to Allah, it's a bullcrap.

 

International people don't understand language, of course everyone can argue "Allah" means "The God", but in context, in Malay language, it is not correct to translate God into Allah.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Qistina

[Elerond]

People are forgetting that censorship was commonplace in Western countries 60-80 years ago. How long has it been since "insulting the king" and "insulting god" were removed as crimes in European countries? Carl Laemmle's filmatisation of "All Quiet on the Western Front" is one shocking example of 20th century censorship in Europe. It's absurd that we claim that the same things our grandfathers did is suddenly "absolute evil" - we should strive to understand what is the logical next step for the less developed countries, like an older sibling guiding a younger sibling through their life choices. Let's just acknowledge that some countries are not as advanced as others. We should aim to help these societies progress along the same lines as we did, one step at a time. Everything cannot be achieved at once, and quick and forceful "solutions" are often foolish. We can't expect all countries to suddenly adapt 21st century free speech, when many are effectively living in the 20th or 19th century as far as social politics go.

 

Things that currently are counted as most evil, vicious, horrible, etc. in world history are things that our grandfathers did. Which is why such concepts as fundamental human rights, current refugee treaties etc. were created in first place.