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Was Paladin's starting Deflection changed?


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Was the Paladin's starting deflection changed in the last patch?

 

On the wiki -not always up to date or correct - Paladin's starting deflection is listed as 25, the same as Monk and Fighter. This is what I remember from prior to the patch, all three had the same deflection.

 

Now after the last patch I'm playing around with different builds and Fighters are now at 30 deflection -expected change - , Monks are still at 25 deflection, but Paladins are at 20 deflection.

 

I did not notice any changes like this listed in the notes.

 

With max Faith & Conviction at +11/+22 the Paladin would be one ahead of the Fighter when before it was eleven ahead. Not saying this is necessarily a bad adjustment making Fighters the best deflection tank, Paladins will still be way ahead in the other defenses, just did not see it listed anywhere.

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Just checked in 2.02 and Paladins definitely had 25 base deflection.

 

Weird this wouldn't be mentioned anywhere and frankly I do not understand the reason for the change :blink:

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

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Paladin's history: Buff, nerf, buff, nerf - true story. Sad one though. They already have less accuracy than fighters, monks and rogues. Sure, Sacred Immolation is a very good new skill - but why do you have to nerf deflection then? It's enough to rebuff fighter's deflection which was destroyed with the defender nerf. All this nerfing without mentioning it is annoying.

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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Paladin's history: Buff, nerf, buff, nerf - true story. Sad one though. They already have less accuracy than fighters, monks and rogues. Sure, Sacred Immolation is a very good new skill - but why do you have to nerf deflection then? It's enough to rebuff fighter's deflection which was destroyed with the defender nerf. All this nerfing without mentioning it is annoying.

Agreed. The ongoing nerf's would be understandable if this were a multiplayer game, especially a PvP game. But repeated class nerfs in a single player RPG?

 

Is this the result of the whole kickstart/backers approach?

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Agreed. The ongoing nerf's would be understandable if this were a multiplayer game, especially a PvP game. But repeated class nerfs in a single player RPG?

 

Is this the result of the whole kickstart/backers approach?

20 years from now, people won't care about patching process. What they will care about is playing the game for another 20 years because they didn't get to try all the class combinations that they know will all be enjoyable because all of them have just the right amount of power and utility to make them interesting.
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Would some of you guys feel better about balance changes if 8 other classes got buffed with +5 base deflection (through several patches) and all enemies with +5 to accuracy? So fighters would have 35 defl. and so on. [No nerf for paladins]  :disguise:

 

Btw it's a good change, of course.

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Agreed. The ongoing nerf's would be understandable if this were a multiplayer game, especially a PvP game. But repeated class nerfs in a single player RPG?

 

Is this the result of the whole kickstart/backers approach?

20 years from now, people won't care about patching process. What they will care about is playing the game for another 20 years because they didn't get to try all the class combinations that they know will all be enjoyable because all of them have just the right amount of power and utility to make them interesting.

 

Indeed. This is common for all legendary games, and I certainly hope PoE follows suit. Although, with the constant changes to character classes, we really don't have to wait 20 years to try all combinations. You know, since combinations are changing right before our eyes lol 

 

btw, I agree with Valorian. Why not just put Fighters above Paladins instead of doing a "just kidding" update to Paladins? Backing out of implementations just gives the impression that there is no real strategic planning for these character classes. It seems to be more whimsical.

Edited by Zenbane
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I think changes are based on feedback and dry calculations of possible stats, not on any QA playthroughs done at Obsidian. If the base game is still being played in QA outside of just testing out if patch-introduced changes are working, this hasn't been mentioned or hinted.

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I meant to move this to support and forgot. I think I'll just leave it here at this point but someone posted about a deflection issue recently and O wonder if it's related.

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I can understand and even agree with the change to the Paladin's base deflection. They are still the best defensive melee in the game and there still is no reason other than Eder's great character to include a Fighter on the team. Fighters still have no purpose and whatever mission you tailor their build for someone else is better at it plus has more for the team.

 

I just wish they had listed the change in the patch notes.

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I just wish they had listed the change in the patch notes.

 

That was most likely just oversight, as BAdler (or who ever writes the notes) writes patch notes from issue tracker that has much more change than they write in patch notes (because there is always lots of minor adjustments in code that leave their mark in issue tracker, but are meaningless for end user), so when they collect things that are interesting for end users it is quite easy to miss one value adjustment. especially if it such that it hasn't been talked in team meeting or such, because it is just adjusting value to what it should be according to design paper.

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Would some of you guys feel better about balance changes if 8 other classes got buffed with +5 base deflection (through several patches) and all enemies with +5 to accuracy? So fighters would have 35 defl. and so on. [No nerf for paladins]  :disguise:

 

Btw it's a good change, of course.

It's not really about the arbitrary/pointless change in deflection that matters, it's the mistake of not documenting it in the patch notes that's typical/systemic of how things have been handled with this game and hidden bugs with every new patch. Folks are wondering what's going on.

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btw, I agree with Valorian. Why not just put Fighters above Paladins instead of doing a "just kidding" update to Paladins? Backing out of implementations just gives the impression that there is no real strategic planning for these character classes. It seems to be more whimsical.

 

 

Perhaps I was misunderstood.. because I agree with the change. I was just pointing out that there's a very inconvenient way around direct nerfs that accomplishes the exact same thing with more work.

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Would some of you guys feel better about balance changes if 8 other classes got buffed with +5 base deflection (through several patches) and all enemies with +5 to accuracy? So fighters would have 35 defl. and so on. [No nerf for paladins]  :disguise:

 

Btw it's a good change, of course.

No, but i would feel better if Paladins had better base deflection than druids or ciphers. I would feel better if this statement of Josh:

"Characters like fighters and paladins have great base Deflection"

have remained true. I would feel better if they instead improved Fighter's deflection by adding some points to (Wary) Defender, so someone might actually pick it.

Vancian =/= per rest.

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Paladins went down from 30 to 25 and Fighters went up from 25 to 30 because Faith and Conviction, so technically Josh's statement is still true.

 

The only problem I see with that is that Faith and Conviction does not apply to Pallegina or henchmen Paladins—not even the base values. So those get nerfed quite a bit.

 

EDIT: Josh just told me on Twitter that base Faith and Conviction should apply to all Paladins. As of 2.02, it doesn't seem to, however. Could someone with 2.03 test this? I don't want to update until the IE Mod is made compatible with the new patch.

Edited by AndreaColombo

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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Paladins went down from 30 to 25 and Fighters went up from 25 to 30 because Faith and Conviction, so technically Josh's statement is still true.

 

The only problem I see with that is that Faith and Conviction does not apply to Pallegina or henchmen Paladins—not even the base values. So those get nerfed quite a bit.

 

EDIT: Josh just told me on Twitter that base Faith and Conviction should apply to all Paladins. As of 2.02, it doesn't seem to, however. Could someone with 2.03 test this? I don't want to update until the IE Mod is made compatible with the new patch.

 

 

The basic version of faith and convinction always applied to companions, provided they were in combat. Did something change?  

Edited by Njall
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So... am I really wrong to think that a Paladin should be more defense-centric than a Fighter? I've always experienced Fighters in an RPG setting to be either offensive or tactical (utility). However, when a Paladin shows up the general notion has been, "hooray, a pure meat shield is here!"

 

If I'm wrong someone educate me please lol

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So... am I really wrong to think that a Paladin should be more defense-centric than a Fighter? I've always experienced Fighters in an RPG setting to be either offensive or tactical (utility). However, when a Paladin shows up the general notion has been, "hooray, a pure meat shield is here!"If I'm wrong someone educate me please lol

Well, aside from the fact that what a Paladin should be is purely a matter of preference, in PoE they still have great defenses, when Faith and Convinction is maxxed out (slightly better deflection than a fighter, way better fort, ref and will);also, they have a bunch of defensive utilities, a party-wide defensive aura, insane healing, can revive a downed ally and get a sick 13th level class ability which provides both damage and party wide healing...they're still defensive powerhouses, frankly.

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In the earliest schisms in AD&D, it was easier to build a fighter for melee damage, due to only needing a high STR and having access to specialization. 

Paladins required a whole bunch of stats, but got auras and immunities.

 

So yes, the 'roots' of the class are as a defensive tank. Not that that applies wholesale in POE. 

Magran's fire casts light in Dark Places...

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Paladins are currently quite good, even with nerf.

 

However, I feel it is really weird on lore side.

 

Base deflection is due to training.

Faith and Conviction is due to... well... faith and conviction.

 

I feel strange that a kind of knight is less trained in defense than... a chanter.

 

Is it a "lawful stupid" cliche where the dude run into monsters protected by his/her devotion ?

 

I would have felt better if they had removed the deflection bonus from F&C instead. (And maybe buffed a bit other defenses)

 

Even if the result is the same...

Edited by Elric Galad
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So, it comes down to my inexperience with Paladin as I thought Faith and Conviction was on all the time as opposed to just in combat. I've just tried it in combat and it totally applies to my henchman Paladin.

 

I don't think Paladins should have received a buff to other defenses, as they're already 10 ahead of everyone else (and your PC Paladin can get more than that.)

 

Additionally, it seems to me (even though it is not written anywhere) that Paladins gain 3.5 Deflection per level, whereas Fighters gain 3. At least that's what I get when check the Deflection numbers of my level 14 characters.

Edited by AndreaColombo

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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Unless something changed since 2.0, that was definitely not the case... my paladin was 11 points ahead of my custom fighter in 2.0, even at level 14. If he'd gotten 3.5 points of deflection/level, he'd have been 17 points ahead instead.

I ran the math (and tested it in game) when defender was nerfed, so I'm pretty sure it wasn' t the case back then.

 

Did you try rolling a new paladin? Maybe, just as the buff to the fighter's deflection isn't applying to existing characters, the nerf doesn't kick in until you roll a new character...

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