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Efficient Leveling System


Qistina

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Having playing games for years, i have several thoughts about leveling system in games. The purpose of leveling is to create character progression isn't it? The character become stronger to face challenges in the game. But as i have played many games, i find out that recent games leveling is not enjoyeable to the point it is not necessary, and it also break immersion.

 

For example, TES. I played Oblivion and Skyrim. The system is you have to grind your skill to level up, when you do so your skills become better, your character level up and the world itself level. But to think about it, it doesn't matter if you start the game with already max level world and your character having max level skills. I am using console command to raise my character level to the highest in Skyrim, the world also being at that level. It is a no different starting the game at level 1 world with level 1 skills.

 

What i mean is, the game treat us as weaklings at the start of the game, then we progress in original level up system, but by using this console command, our character do have skills and not just weaklings, he/she is as ready as ever to be in the world of the same level. He/she still need gears or magic or whatever. But it save time grinding to level up to be in the said world level.

 

Let look at Dark Souls, the world level is stagnant, you start a NG, everything in the world is as it is, enemies don't level, they are as they are. But your character is so underleveled, and that what makes the game look hard. You must harvest souls to level up, to buy or create better gears, your level is unlimited for a NG. If the player is so dedicated to level to the max, NG is a piece of cake.

 

So what i mean is, Dark Soul leveling is to make chracater progress to become stronger, but in the end the game lost it challenges. There are certain places with hgh level enemies, but when your level is a lot higher than those enemies, the game become so easy. So Dark Soul player cap their character level just because want to preserve the challenge.

 

For me, in modern game, level up system is a no need anymore. Game challenges are no longer about how strong or weak the character vs enemies, this is only for the games in the past such as Diablo, Dragon Age, KotOR and such games. Game developers must find new way of challenges for gamers. Level up system have become tedious nowadays where games encourage grinding to become more stronger and game challenges only resolve around that.

 

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Okay, let me try to understand what you are saying (no offense, I understand English is not your first language given your location).  What you are saying is that leveling is irrelevant in games with level scaling because enemies scale with you, in this case, I agree completely, level scaling sucks.  It is somewhat necessary in a game like Diablo/TitanQuest/Torchlight, etc. because in those games you are meant to run through the same areas again and again to farm and if levels are static then there would be no challenge after the first time.  Those games are far more about loot than character progression anyway.  

 

As for examples where enemy level/strength is fixed, I disagree wholeheartedly.  In my opinion, this is what RPGs should be all about.  You encounter a challenge that is extremely difficult because you are low level.  You can choose to do it now and surely perish or go out, get stronger, and meet the challenge when you are ready.  To me, that's a critical part of video game RPGs, building your characters up until they can meet a challenge.

 

As for what you are suggesting, if I understand correctly, is a game where character progression is not so much due to your character becoming much stronger, stat wise, but by becoming stronger because you, the player, have learned to play the character better.  That game exists.  It's called Bayonetta (1 & 2) and it's an AWESOME game, but it's not an RPG.  Go play some spectacle fighters, it seems to be what you're looking for.

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Leveling systems are part of character customization, it the player the power to define their character. As more game incorporate RPG elements and devlopers and publishers realize the power of giving choice within a game there will be more leveling system.  Also the escalation provided by level up systems vs the growing challenges is quite the well received feature. This isn't just for stat allocation but for things like weapon unlocks or other systems based on progression.
There is a fine balance when it comes to RPGs in that it become difficult to balance an extensive game world for different classes.

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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It is somewhat necessary in a game like Diablo/TitanQuest/Torchlight, etc. because in those games you are meant to run through the same areas again and again to farm and if levels are static then there would be no challenge after the first time.  Those games are far more about loot than character progression anyway.

Forgive me...but while I don't know for sure about Torchlight (not having ever played it), enemies never scaled with you in Diablo (1 or 2), nor Titan Quest. In fact, if they did, it would screw up the entire drop system in Diablo 2, where the alvl (area level) determines the mlvl (monster level) of the monsters in the given area, which, while players are killing said monsters, compares itself to the qlvl (quality level - also known as ilvl for item level) as the game tries to drop items off the killed monsters, which then checks to make sure everything's in order for that specific item type with that specific quality type (non-magic, magic or rare prefixes and suffixes, set pieces, uniques), and if everything is, it then drops the item...and if it isn't, it either rewrites the item into a different quality type (the unique to rare and set piece to magic transformations being the two that I know of), or erases it as if it had never existed entirely. If areas/monsters scaled with you (and they don't...not even to the slightest degree), it would completely screw up this formula. There are three different difficulty settings for a reason. wink.png

 

I would also disagree with you in regards to character building: you could easily screw up your character to be nigh-unusable if you didn't know what you were doing (...and if you were playing before the respecialization patch came out): character building and progression was VERY important in Diablo 2. So was equipment, yes...but character building was one of Diablo 2's greatest strength (contrast it with Diablo 3, which is much, much more limited, and consequently much, much less interesting in this area).

 

This just in: I know way too much about Diablo. tongue.png

Edited by Bartimaeus

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Okay, let me try to understand what you are saying (no offense, I understand English is not your first language given your location).  What you are saying is that leveling is irrelevant in games with level scaling because enemies scale with you, in this case, I agree completely, level scaling sucks.  It is somewhat necessary in a game like Diablo/TitanQuest/Torchlight, etc. because in those games you are meant to run through the same areas again and again to farm and if levels are static then there would be no challenge after the first time.  Those games are far more about loot than character progression anyway.  

 

Yes games like Diablo is linear, i can understand the level system is necessary, and it is fun because as long as you can't defeat the boss at this map surely you can't progress in the next map. It is linear and it make sure we do anything needed to progress to the next level. I have no problem with this but this is old mechanic

 

 

As for examples where enemy level/strength is fixed, I disagree wholeheartedly.  In my opinion, this is what RPGs should be all about.  You encounter a challenge that is extremely difficult because you are low level.  You can choose to do it now and surely perish or go out, get stronger, and meet the challenge when you are ready.  To me, that's a critical part of video game RPGs, building your characters up until they can meet a challenge.

 

What i mean is games like Dark Souls encourage players to grind level to beat, meaning the challenges is fake, it is just the player is underlevelled. For example, level 30 or so character with +5 normal weapon will one hit kill all the undead in Undead Burg, only take few hits beating the Black Knight. The game is not dificult at all, it just you are underlevelled. I don't know about others, but i feel cheated by the fake challenge. The enemy not wise, they are at very same spot and doing exactly like what being scripted. The only reason you find them dificut is because you are at level 5 for example with weak weapon while they are at level 20 with good weapons. Another reason is because you don't know there's a character who sell spell, these spells one hit kill everything no matter what level you are at early level. Dark Souls players cap their level because of this, if the player go beyond everything in the game, then the game is a piece of cake.

 

 

As for what you are suggesting, if I understand correctly, is a game where character progression is not so much due to your character becoming much stronger, stat wise, but by becoming stronger because you, the player, have learned to play the character better.  That game exists.  It's called Bayonetta (1 & 2) and it's an AWESOME game, but it's not an RPG.  Go play some spectacle fighters, it seems to be what you're looking for.

 

I am suggesting to change the way a computer/console game today, no longer using the old mechanic that is level up system as we see in many games today. It is old and uncreative, it have come to a point where leveling up is boring and uninteresting to do because you have to grind and grind, farming and farming...just because you want to level up and beat the challenge that only about being strong and weak.

 

Why not like what i said i use console commad to rise my character to level 81 in Skyrim, pick all the skills i wanted, and then venture into level 80 world of Skyrim where every max level bosses are there, dragons i see are Ancient Dragons,...for me this is more realistic and immersive because my character don't have amnesia that make her forget who she was before being on the horsecart with the Stormcloack...she was a warrior let say, so logically she have some weapon skill already...so the adventure begin like that. No need to grind and grind to level up in which breaking imersion...we don't become master swordmen because we swing a sword 1000 times, we are already a swordmen, but we are a master because we can kill enemies using our sword skill. If you understand what i mean

 

(Edit : when doing this, the dragons threat really feel a threat in Skyrim Main Quest because the dragons that show up are Ancient Dragons...but as a Dragonborn, you have the skills, it is only about how you use the skills)

 

 

Leveling systems are part of character customization, it the player the power to define their character. As more game incorporate RPG elements and devlopers and publishers realize the power of giving choice within a game there will be more leveling system.  Also the escalation provided by level up systems vs the growing challenges is quite the well received feature. This isn't just for stat allocation but for things like weapon unlocks or other systems based on progression.

There is a fine balance when it comes to RPGs in that it become difficult to balance an extensive game world for different classes.

 

I think most players are already determined what class they want to play before playing and not decide during playing, i think if we just choose what class and having all the skills already, there is no need for leveling system anymore, just create the world with it's own unique challenges. There will be no bug issues, balancing issues and so on...

Edited by Qistina
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@Bartimaeus - You might be right about Diablo, it's been a long while.  Titan Quest does scale, though it's a limited scale.  The first area might scale from 1-5, the next from 5-10, the next from 10-20, and so on.  Enemies will scale with you to a point, but will cap out eventually, so if you grind an area long enough you'll reach a point where the enemier stay the same level and you keep getting stronger.  By the same token, if you manage to run ahead far enough, you can run into an area with enemies way too powerful for you, and get obliterated.  It's the same system its spiritual successor, Grim Dawn, is using.  Torchlight definitely level scales, I'm not sure if it's limited or not.  Anyway, the point is that I feel it's a necessary evil for those types of games where the developers expect players to farm areas/bosses again and again and again as they try to get certain drops (to complete sets or whatever).  Without level scaling the bosses you farm would quickly become childishly easy and the gear you get would be underleveled and thus useless.

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Another point i want to adress about Skyrim, the Bleakfall Burrow is said to be a dangerous place, and NPCs dialogues indicate that no one survived that place before. But because of leveling system, if we going there at level 5 or so, it is not dangerous at all. So it breaking the immersion when Farrengar said "You survived Bleakfall Burrow!"...it's nothing. But if we go there at level 80 world, we can see why it is dangerous and no one survived before...there are Drauger Deathlords and what not.

 

So leveling system do break realism and immersion for a modern game.

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Trying to make sense of Skyrim's lore/gameplay discrepancies will just result in a migraine.

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I will also say, most of the problems you describe are problems with later TES games, where they want you to be able to go almost anywhere and do anything all the time. In that design yes you are right, it is a bit silly.

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Titan Quest does scale, though it's a limited scale.

Dang, I knew I should've said I wasn't completely sure about that one, too (not having played it nearly as much as the Diablos), :p. Fair enough.

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Why is a mechanic bad just because it is 'old'?

 

I don't say it is bad because it is old, but it is bad because the old mechanic just don't suitable for new games anymore, it is fine for old games. With new graphic today ad new types of players, the level up system just don't go along anymore because gamers today wat realism, want something fresh, that is what game developers failed to deliver and become somehow uncreative about that.

 

I will also say, most of the problems you describe are problems with later TES games, where they want you to be able to go almost anywhere and do anything all the time. In that design yes you are right, it is a bit silly.

 

No, not just Skyrim, but Dragon Age and many other modern games. Level up system for today games have become tedious. I give an example, most games today having main character being a war veteran (as in KotOR 2), but the character level is level 1, the character have to level up learning all the skill like a novice and become what his/her supposed to be that is a war veteran. Unless there is an explanation on why the main character become like a fresh cadet recruit, this just doesn't make sense.

 

We can forgive Diablo and many other old games because at that time it is acceptable, but for modern game, modern RPG, for me there is no need for level up system anymore. Just change it with something else such as item dependant or the character already have all basic skills but can learn new rare skills, something like that.

 

When you choose a warrior or knight class, that character is a warrior and knight, surely a real warrior and knight already having all the skills being a warrior and knight, not like a noob fighter. The same with Mages, you pick a Mage but turn out to be that character only have one or two spells. Like in Dragon Age :Origin, you are said to be the First Enchanter favorite student, so smart and better than anyone else and is ready for Harrowing, but you only have two spells, for many years being in the Mage college you only learn TWO spells because the game say you are level 1 Mage...

 

That's what i mean.

 

(Edit: to think about it, i like TES:Oblivion starting character creation but still don't make sense, when you choose magic major skills, or Mage class, you get all the basic spells related to the magic schools, but that is only after you talk to Baurus, before that you have two spells in which we could question where these other spells gone before talking to Baurus...the same if you choose combat major skills, you begin at journeyman level, but before talk to Baurus you are having amnesia)

Edited by Qistina
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So i suggest in future games, remove level up system, but instead replace it with

 

i. Items

- better items you get/found/buy/craft the better the character become

- for dice roll mechanic, these items (weapons/armor/gear) will act like character stats that give +X to attack/defend, also +X of other stats

- for FPS it is the same but don't need the +X to attack/defend

- these items also give buffs

 

ii. buying skills

- the character already have all the skills at the begining, but what is about to be found/buy/learn/rewarded are rare/special knowledge/skill

 

iii. quest

- the character automatically level up when completing a quest, not because of having experience points

- when comple a quest the character just rise default skill/perk/stats for class chosen in the begining

 

I think this will make the game more interesting, the players will focus more into the game and story instead of looking at menu and grinding...it also encourage exploration and finding new stuff.

Edited by Qistina
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I think you might like the original Deadlands RPG. It contains many of the qualities you are seeking. I think it's an excellent system.

 

Essentially, all of your skills have a die value assigned, where the number of faces represents the magnitude of your ability and the sum of dice rolled represents the reliability/experience of the ability. Take a Streetwise value of 3d8. You will roll a 1d8 die three times, taking the highest value. If any of those die were to roll the maximum value of 8, then you could retain that value, roll 3d8 again, and add the highest value once more. This can continue indefinitely.

 

A player with say, 5d6 Streetwise has a very reliable and practiced talent that will statistically roll to its upper potential often and almost never roll poorly. However, a 2d10 Streetwise has the potential to do great things, but a lot less reliably. Catastrophic failure is also more of a threat. These two aspects are purchased independently via "Fate Points" which can be acquired in various manners.
 

Of very important note, if I remember correctly, is that HP never changes. Defense can improve, but HP always remains the same. This makes for an interesting mechanic where no matter how powerful, everything can potentially be slain by anything. It's a kind of natural bounded accuracy that gets overlooked all of the time. I have no idea why CRPGs do not use more Deadlands inspired systems.

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IMO the best way to do encounter scaling is this... (Towards classical RPG.)

 

Create effective, challenging mob groups of various level ranges that are automatically adjusted for the local environment. By "adjusted," I mean no swamp slimes in snowy mountain pass, etc. I don't mean adjusting the individual level of the mobs.

 

Example:

Level 1-3 Weak Encounter

Environment-Plains = Group[starving Wolf x2, Wolf] or Group[Young Boar + Boar] or Group[Chinchilla_From_Hell]

Environment-Swamp = Group[Zombie x2, Weak Wight] or [Ornery_Groundhog + Sneaky_Snapping_Turtle]

Environment-Desert = Group[Vulture x2, Sidewinder]

Level 1-3 Strong Encounter

Environment-Plains = Group[Hyena x3 + Wandering Lioness]

Etc.

Etc.

 

Have those encounters be automatically selected, with some consider variance, to the current character level.

 

DO NOT just dynamically adjust enemies by giving them more stats and/or levels individually. This creates weak, generic feeling encounters like TES. Note: I like TES, but it's more about the open world and environments than it is encounter mechanics, I think those leave a lot to be desired.

Edited by Luridis

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. - Julius Caesar

 

:facepalm: #define TRUE (!FALSE)

I ran across an article where the above statement was found in a release tarball. LOL! Who does something like this? Predictably, this oddity was found when the article's author tried to build said tarball and the compiler promptly went into cardiac arrest. If you're not a developer, imagine telling someone the literal meaning of up is "not down". Such nonsense makes computers, and developers... angry.

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I think you might like the original Deadlands RPG. It contains many of the qualities you are seeking. I think it's an excellent system.

 

Essentially, all of your skills have a die value assigned, where the number of faces represents the magnitude of your ability and the sum of dice rolled represents the reliability/experience of the ability. Take a Streetwise value of 3d8. You will roll a 1d8 die three times, taking the highest value. If any of those die were to roll the maximum value of 8, then you could retain that value, roll 3d8 again, and add the highest value once more. This can continue indefinitely.

 

A player with say, 5d6 Streetwise has a very reliable and practiced talent that will statistically roll to its upper potential often and almost never roll poorly. However, a 2d10 Streetwise has the potential to do great things, but a lot less reliably. Catastrophic failure is also more of a threat. These two aspects are purchased independently via "Fate Points" which can be acquired in various manners.

 

Of very important note, if I remember correctly, is that HP never changes. Defense can improve, but HP always remains the same. This makes for an interesting mechanic where no matter how powerful, everything can potentially be slain by anything. It's a kind of natural bounded accuracy that gets overlooked all of the time. I have no idea why CRPGs do not use more Deadlands inspired systems.

 

I prefer Jedi Knight : Jedi Academy, it is similar like what you say if understand it correctly. This game is FPS like Skyrim anyway, but one thing i like about this game is you can be killed as easily as everything in the game except the rancor and the walking tank people shooting energy whatever it is called i don't remember. Between Jedi and Jedi, one lightsaber strike is fatal. One rocket shot from Stormtrooper or Boba fet also can one shot kill. It is just you can activate Force Powers and shields, and if you are skilled with timing and reflex. It is fine for FPS game, though i prefer dice roll mechanic better. You level up by choosing Force powers after completing quests, some automatically level (neutral), some you choose (light or dark)

 

 

IMO the best way to do encounter scaling is this... (Towards classical RPG.)

 

Create effective, challenging mob groups of various level ranges that are automatically adjusted for the local environment. By "adjusted," I mean no swamp slimes in snowy mountain pass, etc. I don't mean adjusting the individual level of the mobs.

 

Example:

Level 1-3 Weak Encounter

Environment-Plains = Group[starving Wolf x2, Wolf] or Group[Young Boar + Boar] or Group[Chinchilla_From_Hell]

Environment-Swamp = Group[Zombie x2, Weak Wight] or [Ornery_Groundhog + Sneaky_Snapping_Turtle]

Environment-Desert = Group[Vulture x2, Sidewinder]

Level 1-3 Strong Encounter

Environment-Plains = Group[Hyena x3 + Wandering Lioness]

Etc.

Etc.

 

Have those encounters be automatically selected, with some consider variance, to the current character level.

 

DO NOT just dynamically adjust enemies by giving them more stats and/or levels individually. This creates weak, generic feeling encounters like TES. Note: I like TES, but it's more about the open world and environments than it is encounter mechanics, I think those leave a lot to be desired.

 

I think in new modern games there is no need for mob enemies anymore, just make all mobs are bosses and the boss of the game is the top boss of all bosses. Mob enemies are boring like in Dragon Age 2, they are just copies with different clothings and names.In Skyrim it is similar, they all just copies of one another, doing the very same thing such as attacking one handed or two handed with the same attack pattern, or using bow, or magic...if magic they will summon, and then spam ice/fire/lighting...if creatures also the same what make different is their size.

 

So just remove mob enemies, make them bosses and few but hard. By hard doesn't mean they have millions HP but their intelligent, their AI, their fighting skill, their variety of magic, unpredictable and always changing their pattern each time we play new character or when we meet similar enemies somewhere else.

Edited by Qistina
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Qistina, you never actually explain why what worked for old games don't work for new games anymore. Many times you just say it without explaining it, just saying it's not 'acceptable' or it's not 'fresh' but I still have no idea why. You say gamers today 'want realism', and so they want to already be a capable knight when they start as a knight. This is plainly wrong, because that is like saying gamers would want shooters where one shot is enough to kill you. 

 

I do agree with some of the more specific things raised here. Nobody wants to fight 8000 battles and grind to just get up two levels and all. Fewer trash battles for well designed key battles is better. But you keep making these huge general statements and you never back them up, so I don't know why those have to be there. I also don't see why leveling as a whole has to disappear, rather than being improved. There are many, many advantages to leveling or other kinds of progression systems: they provide a sense of progress and empowerment, they provide new variety in ways to play, they provide concrete goals and thresholds, etc. 

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I want shooters where one shot can kill you

 

I miss the old Tom Clancy games

Only if the enemies have as much trouble finding you and shooting you from a distance as I do.

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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I want shooters where one shot can kill you

 

I miss the old Tom Clancy games

Only if the enemies have as much trouble finding you and shooting you from a distance as I do.

 

I'd stay away from windows for a while, ShadySands. Orogun1 might get lucky.

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Yeah you're not making much sense to me.

 

I understand what you mean about a stronger start(BG was kiting and resting after every battle at level 1-3), but that can be accomplished with better progression design rather than gutting out progression.

 

IMO a great character/progression system would be somewhat similar to an idealized Fallout, with stats being derived from attributes, a skill system that doesn't lock you into a set path, and a robust perk system that allows players to specialize their characters.

"To be fair, if I was married to Milla Jovovich, I would also be happy just making movies that show off her butt." - Hurlsnot

"I originally just wanted to ignore this, but I can't sleep, so why not." - majestic

"I murdered my entire family as well as the police and priests investigating me for murdering my entire family in the name of Satan. Good times." - Bartimaeus

"I will undoubtedly cave and buy this since Nintendo has me by the balls with Shin Megami Tensei V." - Keyrock

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IMO the best way to do encounter scaling is this... (Towards classical RPG.)

 

Create effective, challenging mob groups of various level ranges that are automatically adjusted for the local environment. By "adjusted," I mean no swamp slimes in snowy mountain pass, etc. I don't mean adjusting the individual level of the mobs.

 

Example:

Level 1-3 Weak Encounter

Environment-Plains = Group[starving Wolf x2, Wolf] or Group[Young Boar + Boar] or Group[Chinchilla_From_Hell]

Environment-Swamp = Group[Zombie x2, Weak Wight] or [Ornery_Groundhog + Sneaky_Snapping_Turtle]

Environment-Desert = Group[Vulture x2, Sidewinder]

Level 1-3 Strong Encounter

Environment-Plains = Group[Hyena x3 + Wandering Lioness]

Etc.

Etc.

 

Have those encounters be automatically selected, with some consider variance, to the current character level.

 

DO NOT just dynamically adjust enemies by giving them more stats and/or levels individually. This creates weak, generic feeling encounters like TES. Note: I like TES, but it's more about the open world and environments than it is encounter mechanics, I think those leave a lot to be desired.

 

 

I think in new modern games there is no need for mob enemies anymore, just make all mobs are bosses and the boss of the game is the top boss of all bosses. Mob enemies are boring like in Dragon Age 2, they are just copies with different clothings and names.In Skyrim it is similar, they all just copies of one another, doing the very same thing such as attacking one handed or two handed with the same attack pattern, or using bow, or magic...if magic they will summon, and then spam ice/fire/lighting...if creatures also the same what make different is their size.

 

So just remove mob enemies, make them bosses and few but hard. By hard doesn't mean they have millions HP but their intelligent, their AI, their fighting skill, their variety of magic, unpredictable and always changing their pattern each time we play new character or when we meet similar enemies somewhere else.

 

Umm... Bosses are mobs, the difference being in the difficulty. So you really didn't say anything that I had not already. Multiple enemies with good group AI can be just as much of a "boss" as a single very powerful enemy. My overall point was that scaling levels and stats on monsters is a poor way of scaling encounter difficulty with the player. Finally, using the same skins on mobs (bosses and normal) with differing names and colors is not a consequence of poorly designed AI, but is related to reducing the number of necessary art assets. Get an older game with a text-focused combat engine like the old AD&D gold box games and you'll see far more variety in monsters, because they're all just a list of names in an encounter dialogue.

Edited by Luridis

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. - Julius Caesar

 

:facepalm: #define TRUE (!FALSE)

I ran across an article where the above statement was found in a release tarball. LOL! Who does something like this? Predictably, this oddity was found when the article's author tried to build said tarball and the compiler promptly went into cardiac arrest. If you're not a developer, imagine telling someone the literal meaning of up is "not down". Such nonsense makes computers, and developers... angry.

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It could be interesting to see character creation heavy rpg system used in crpg, where you define your character to finest details in character creation and during gameplay there is little to none character progression. But I would guess that it would be even more difficult or at least more arduous to design and do system that is able to react reasonably towards multiple well defined characters than system that reacts towards character that is slowly defined during gameplay.

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Qistina, you never actually explain why what worked for old games don't work for new games anymore. Many times you just say it without explaining it, just saying it's not 'acceptable' or it's not 'fresh' but I still have no idea why. You say gamers today 'want realism', and so they want to already be a capable knight when they start as a knight. This is plainly wrong, because that is like saying gamers would want shooters where one shot is enough to kill you. 

 

I do agree with some of the more specific things raised here. Nobody wants to fight 8000 battles and grind to just get up two levels and all. Fewer trash battles for well designed key battles is better. But you keep making these huge general statements and you never back them up, so I don't know why those have to be there. I also don't see why leveling as a whole has to disappear, rather than being improved. There are many, many advantages to leveling or other kinds of progression systems: they provide a sense of progress and empowerment, they provide new variety in ways to play, they provide concrete goals and thresholds, etc. 

 

Well in old games, it was a fresh idea during that time, a video games are a new thing, game developers just made games and look like it were with such leveling system appropriate with the system and ideas at that time. So it is fine, but it have become like a doctrine and dogma, all new games copying such mechanic up to today. It is not suitable for today games but still being implemented because it have become a "religion" must follow.

 

Today we have better graphic, realistic looking characters, realistic looking world, and realistic emotion behind it all...so while we immerse ourselves in the game, then our character get a glow, a "bling", or something showing him/her levelled up, now that is not real. Then we open up menu to raise stats. We still need this kind of things in realistic game universe today?

 

Most of the time gameplay don't get along with story, and some even against story. Grey Warden supposely can sense Darkspwn, but there is no such thing in the game mechanic. Grey warden was supposed to be the best of the best being recruited from the land, but game mechanic say this character is only level 5. You see, "we only pick the best of the best we can found in this land to become one of us" says Grey Warden, but the game say "meh, you just level 5 and can't even unlock specialization yet"....

 

Level up system in games stil tolerated just because we are used to such system no matter how it break the game sense in many ways. In Skyrim you just survive Bleak Fall Barrow, kill a Dragon at Whiterun Tower, you are hailed as mystical being the Dragonborn, the Greybeard is calling you and you answer them by climbing 7000 steps on the mountain...but...a level 15 troll show up and kill you because you are just level 5 at that time. See, the defining matter here is LEVEL, not about skill, you are underlevelled during that time. In our consious mind we expect we won't see such enemy too early because we are accustomed to leveling system, but because of the world is resolved around levels, such thing happened. So the story progression pacing is not in colaboration with game mechanic.

Edited by Qistina
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