Democrat Presidential Debate

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

 

Are you a Hilary supporter as well?

Hahaha.

And I doubt its because " he won't speak to BruceVC " because he seems fine with sarcasm?

You're alright Bruce. Your views are terrible but you can handle the banter.

 

Okay but then I have no idea what type of SJ you believe in?

 

I assumed you had similar views to me, not about Capitalism but the importance of a fair and equitable society and that would mean realistically you need to uplift people to the middle class at least

 

So what US president do you support 

 

The difference is that liberals think welfare is the way up, but don't realize that like children people have to be pushed or else they will still be 30 without a job in their parents house playing video games.

 

Okay good point, to be clear I don't believe in  state welfare...no this is not what I would consider is sustainable or is about job creation. I doubt any Liberal in  the USA  would actually say this as welfare just holds people back as it gets abused? 

 

US democrats use welfare to keep blacks as their spoiled children so they keep voting Democrat and cant be bothered by anyone abusing the system. I know this for a fact because I work weekends on a supermarket and I've seen welfare cards that have 1000+ dollars in their account, meanwhile I work with people whose whole family work 2 jobs almost every day and were denied welfare. Seriously; **** welfare, It doesn't work. It is not helping the hardworking to get ahead and it is only making sure that their dollars go to help some shameless people that have no scruples cheating the system. You want to help poor people, then control government spending and get rid of sales taxes as well as some other ridiculous taxes.

[Leferd]

 

 

 

Wishful thinking on my part

Shady do you mind sharing why you personally don't like Hilary, I am interested in all Americans opinions because I am trying to see if I am missing something about her that Americans would be aware of but not a foreigner like me

 

I think Elerond gave a better response than I ever could

 

I would also never support someone just because of race or gender either and did not vote for Obama in 2008 (even though I did in 2012)

 

Also

 

Okay that chart is ....concerning

 

How accurate is it and what questions was she asked ?

 

 

It's an aggregate of several polls. One on its own may be inconsequential. But taken together, they're useful enough.

 

Nate Silver/Fivethirtyeight has graded the various individual pollsters: http://fivethirtyeight.com/interactives/pollster-ratings/

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

Are you a Hilary supporter as well?

Hahaha.

And I doubt its because " he won't speak to BruceVC " because he seems fine with sarcasm?

You're alright Bruce. Your views are terrible but you can handle the banter.

 

Okay but then I have no idea what type of SJ you believe in?

 

I assumed you had similar views to me, not about Capitalism but the importance of a fair and equitable society and that would mean realistically you need to uplift people to the middle class at least

 

So what US president do you support 

 

The difference is that liberals think welfare is the way up, but don't realize that like children people have to be pushed or else they will still be 30 without a job in their parents house playing video games.

 

Okay good point, to be clear I don't believe in  state welfare...no this is not what I would consider is sustainable or is about job creation. I doubt any Liberal in  the USA  would actually say this as welfare just holds people back as it gets abused? 

 

US democrats use welfare to keep blacks as their spoiled children so they keep voting Democrat and cant be bothered by anyone abusing the system. I know this for a fact because I work weekends on a supermarket and I've seen welfare cards that have 1000+ dollars in their account, meanwhile I work with people whose whole family work 2 jobs almost every day and were denied welfare. Seriously; **** welfare, It doesn't work. It is not helping the hardworking to get ahead and it is only making sure that their dollars go to help some shameless people that have no scruples cheating the system. You want to help poor people, then control government spending and get rid of sales taxes as well as some other ridiculous taxes.

 

Orog what you suggesting is a serious indictment of how to abuse the  welfare system and worse than that this type of corruption actually wouldn't benefit African Americans. It goes against everything the Democrats believe and I can't imagine is wide spread?

[Barothmuk]

Okay but then I have no idea what type of SJ you believe in?

None, or at least I consider phrases like "I support social justice" so vague that essentially anyone can adopt them thus rendering them meaningless.

 

Look no further then our good friend Hillary who considers herself a "progressive" and a "feminist".

 

So what US president do you support

(assuming you mean candidate) Carson or Trump.

It is not helping the hardworking to get ahead and it is only making sure that their dollars go to help some shameless people that have no scruples cheating the system.

Of all the people ****ing over the economy some poor people cheating the welfare system are the least of anyone's worries.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Wishful thinking on my part

Shady do you mind sharing why you personally don't like Hilary, I am interested in all Americans opinions because I am trying to see if I am missing something about her that Americans would be aware of but not a foreigner like me

 

I think Elerond gave a better response than I ever could

 

I would also never support someone just because of race or gender either and did not vote for Obama in 2008 (even though I did in 2012)

 

Also

 

Okay that chart is ....concerning

 

How accurate is it and what questions was she asked ?

 

 

It's an aggregate of several polls. One on its own may be inconsequential. But taken together, they're useful enough.

 

Nate Silver/Fivethirtyeight has graded the various individual pollsters: http://fivethirtyeight.com/interactives/pollster-ratings/

 

Okay this is a much better picture ....thx

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you a Hilary supporter as well?

Hahaha.

And I doubt its because " he won't speak to BruceVC " because he seems fine with sarcasm?

You're alright Bruce. Your views are terrible but you can handle the banter.

 

Okay but then I have no idea what type of SJ you believe in?

 

I assumed you had similar views to me, not about Capitalism but the importance of a fair and equitable society and that would mean realistically you need to uplift people to the middle class at least

 

So what US president do you support 

 

The difference is that liberals think welfare is the way up, but don't realize that like children people have to be pushed or else they will still be 30 without a job in their parents house playing video games.

 

Okay good point, to be clear I don't believe in  state welfare...no this is not what I would consider is sustainable or is about job creation. I doubt any Liberal in  the USA  would actually say this as welfare just holds people back as it gets abused? 

 

US democrats use welfare to keep blacks as their spoiled children so they keep voting Democrat and cant be bothered by anyone abusing the system. I know this for a fact because I work weekends on a supermarket and I've seen welfare cards that have 1000+ dollars in their account, meanwhile I work with people whose whole family work 2 jobs almost every day and were denied welfare. Seriously; **** welfare, It doesn't work. It is not helping the hardworking to get ahead and it is only making sure that their dollars go to help some shameless people that have no scruples cheating the system. You want to help poor people, then control government spending and get rid of sales taxes as well as some other ridiculous taxes.

 

Orog what you suggesting is a serious indictment of how to abuse the  welfare system and worse than that this type of corruption actually wouldn't benefit African Americans. It goes against everything the Democrats believe and I can't imagine is wide spread?

 

Look up Thomas Sowell, his claims that African Americans are worse off 20 years after welfare than right after being released from slavery are accurate to a point. Welfare isn't doing the main thing that it was meant to do which is to raise the standard of living, meaning getting people off welfare not more people getting into it.

 

@Barothmuk:

Sorry that I wasn't clear, the supermarket I work at is one of those upper level markets for middle class and high class incomes. It is definitely not Walmart or Costco, and the people with those cards are driving some pretty nice cars for someone on welfare. Also, we know what people on welfare actually get (the ones that apply and get it legally) because we know people that are on it. It is never 1000 dollars, the only possibility its what everyone suspects: that there is money under the table so that our tax dollars go to support some shady bastard while honest people struggle.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you a Hilary supporter as well?

Hahaha.

And I doubt its because " he won't speak to BruceVC " because he seems fine with sarcasm?

You're alright Bruce. Your views are terrible but you can handle the banter.

 

Okay but then I have no idea what type of SJ you believe in?

 

I assumed you had similar views to me, not about Capitalism but the importance of a fair and equitable society and that would mean realistically you need to uplift people to the middle class at least

 

So what US president do you support 

 

The difference is that liberals think welfare is the way up, but don't realize that like children people have to be pushed or else they will still be 30 without a job in their parents house playing video games.

 

Okay good point, to be clear I don't believe in  state welfare...no this is not what I would consider is sustainable or is about job creation. I doubt any Liberal in  the USA  would actually say this as welfare just holds people back as it gets abused? 

 

US democrats use welfare to keep blacks as their spoiled children so they keep voting Democrat and cant be bothered by anyone abusing the system. I know this for a fact because I work weekends on a supermarket and I've seen welfare cards that have 1000+ dollars in their account, meanwhile I work with people whose whole family work 2 jobs almost every day and were denied welfare. Seriously; **** welfare, It doesn't work. It is not helping the hardworking to get ahead and it is only making sure that their dollars go to help some shameless people that have no scruples cheating the system. You want to help poor people, then control government spending and get rid of sales taxes as well as some other ridiculous taxes.

 

Orog what you suggesting is a serious indictment of how to abuse the  welfare system and worse than that this type of corruption actually wouldn't benefit African Americans. It goes against everything the Democrats believe and I can't imagine is wide spread?

 

No this is actually happening. Welfare has become less a means to aid the poor and more of a tool to ensure political loyalty. But isn't every entitlement? Bruce you have some odd ideas of what politics in general and democrats in the US specifically are really all about. Believe me, it is not a fairy tale where good intentions and wise leaders are building utopia.

[Hurlshort]

I don't know, welfare is a tricky issue.  My wife has a ton of students coming from welfare households.  They tend to have a lot of other issues, for sure, but I'm not sure if taking away the measly amount of money they get will do anything but make matters worse.  These are the same kids who hate winter and summer breaks because they know they will not get a decent meal most of the time.  How do you change the entire culture around welfare?  

 

I'm all for alternative programs, but realistically those will probably cost even more to implement.  

[Orogun01]

I don't know, welfare is a tricky issue.  My wife has a ton of students coming from welfare households.  They tend to have a lot of other issues, for sure, but I'm not sure if taking away the measly amount of money they get will do anything but make matters worse.  These are the same kids who hate winter and summer breaks because they know they will not get a decent meal most of the time.  How do you change the entire culture around welfare?  

 

I'm all for alternative programs, but realistically those will probably cost even more to implement.  

I'm all up for more draconian measures that ensure results but everyone seems afraid of giving the government more power while at the same time giving the government and the corporations who control it more power.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

 

 

Somebody warned Bush 600 times that 9/11 was about to happen?

WOD please you and I do have several things in common like our condemnation of Snowden

 

 But please dont tell me you believe in conspiracy theories....the USA didnt commit 9/11to themselves or somehow knew it was going to happen

 

You misunderstood what I was saying there. Calax was drawing an analogy between Benghazi and 9/11, and I was referring to the 600 security requests from Benghazi which went to the State Department but were not acted upon. Also read Calax's sources, there were general 9/11 warnings, there just wasn't enough done about them, but it wasn't because Bush wanted 9/11 to happen, just bureaucratic inertia and lots of other reasons.

 

Are you implying that Hillary WANTED benghazi to happen?

 

No, you can clearly see I was answering Bruce's misunderstanding that I was claiming US wanted 9/11. Of course Hillary didn't want Benghazi, she was negligent and incompetent, which is something I wouldn't say of Bush regarding 9/11, although I admit I haven't studied the issue enough. But since Bush isn't running for re-election and Condoleeza Rice isn't running for president either, that issue has only historical relevance at this point. Edited November 17, 2015 by Wrath of Dagon

[Calax]

 

 

 

 

Somebody warned Bush 600 times that 9/11 was about to happen?

WOD please you and I do have several things in common like our condemnation of Snowden

 

 But please dont tell me you believe in conspiracy theories....the USA didnt commit 9/11to themselves or somehow knew it was going to happen

 

You misunderstood what I was saying there. Calax was drawing an analogy between Benghazi and 9/11, and I was referring to the 600 security requests from Benghazi which went to the State Department but were not acted upon. Also read Calax's sources, there were general 9/11 warnings, there just wasn't enough done about them, but it wasn't because Bush wanted 9/11 to happen, just bureaucratic inertia and lots of other reasons.

 

Are you implying that Hillary WANTED benghazi to happen?

 

No, you can clearly see I was answering Bruce's misunderstanding that I was claiming US wanted 9/11. Of course Hillary didn't want Benghazi, she was negligent and incompetent, which is something I wouldn't say of Bush regarding 9/11, although I admit I haven't studied the issue enough. But since Bush isn't running for re-election and Condoleeza Rice isn't running for president either, that issue has only historical relevance at this point.

 

That depends on how you want to view it. Currently the republicans are attempting to force the issue that Hillary (or somebody in her office) was negligent that it could theoretically blow back on her enough to A) Ruin her chances at a presidency and B) possible charges. However, the precedent set by the government on a matter such as this (Where those involved were warned and chose to ignore the warning and/or didn't heed the warning) is little more than a hand slap and ignoring it. 

 

Condi, Cheney, and Bush didn't have as much of an inquisition to chase down their negligent actions in the events leading up to 9/11. To the point that Condi answered a question that one of the Memos that crossed her desk was literally "Al Qaeda poses imminent threat to US soil!" and she did NOTHING. And got off with one hearing and a shrug. 

 

As to the Email issue, how can you declare that Clinton was somehow MORE in the wrong than Cheney? And if she isn't, why haven't those who are currently calling for Clinton's imprisonment for "unsecured Email" also called for Cheneys?

[Wrath of Dagon]

By your logic if you ever fail to prosecute a crime for any reason you can never prosecute that crime again. But Petraeus was prosecuted for something very similar to what Hillary did. I don't know anything about Cheney's e-mails, did he send classified info through an unsecure server? Was that ever investigated? As far as what Tenet claims about his warnings, he wanted to launch a pre-emptive war! You can see how difficult that would be for a politician when the whole country has been lulled into complacency (which Trump warned against btw). It's not like airports didn't have security, it's just that the security turned out to be totally inadequate, and it still is to this day!

[Guard Dog]

Hillary Clinton is furious that some comedians made fun of her. Apparently her campaign is threatening them now. http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2015/11/clinton-goes-after-laugh-factory-comedians-for-making-fun-of-her/

 

Better be careful. Enemies of the Clintons end up committing "suicide" in a park somewhere. 

[Wrath of Dagon]

Pretty disturbing, considering the Democrats have made it clear they no longer believe in rule of law.

[Orogun01]

Hillary Clinton is furious that some comedians made fun of her. Apparently her campaign is threatening them now. http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2015/11/clinton-goes-after-laugh-factory-comedians-for-making-fun-of-her/

 

Better be careful. Enemies of the Clintons end up committing "suicide" in a park somewhere. 

Now why is it I wonder that FOX news doesn't run with this story?

[Guard Dog]

The UK Daily Mail has it. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3324857/Not-laughing-matter-Hillary-Clinton-campaign-demands-comedy-club-takes-video-mocking-owner-claims.html

 

Of course this is nowhere near as despicable as John Kerry saying the Charlie Hebdo attack was justified when comparing it to what happened on Saturday. But everyone knows the left is only in favor of free speech when the approve of what is being said.

[Hurlshort]

This is a ridiculous story.  It smacks a lot more of the Laugh Factory boss trying to drum up attention than an attack on free speech.  

 

Both Clinton and Trump strike me as rather humorless, despite their appearances on SNL to try and prove otherwise.  But some vague story about an unnamed staffer calling and 'threatening' the Laugh Factory is pretty weak.  Also, why would the former secretary of state need to ask the owner for phone numbers of these comics?  I'm pretty sure if she wanted to get them, she has better resources.  It's not like they are anonymous, they have their names listed and they are trying to get noticed.  I could probably get in contact with them if I needed to.

[BruceVC]

This is a ridiculous story.  It smacks a lot more of the Laugh Factory boss trying to drum up attention than an attack on free speech.  

 

Both Clinton and Trump strike me as rather humorless, despite their appearances on SNL to try and prove otherwise.  But some vague story about an unnamed staffer calling and 'threatening' the Laugh Factory is pretty weak.  Also, why would the former secretary of state need to ask the owner for phone numbers of these comics?  I'm pretty sure if she wanted to get them, she has better resources.  It's not like they are anonymous, they have their names listed and they are trying to get noticed.  I could probably get in contact with them if I needed to.

Hurlshot is 100 % correct here, it should be an insult to anyone's intelligence if you take it seriously 

[Guard Dog]

Actually I find that story to be 100% credible. Hillary Clinton is sour and humorless. She is arrogant and conceited and looks down her nose at those she considers lesser than her image of herself. I can completely believe she would be mortally offended at being the butt of a joke. But that's not why I believe the story. I believe the story because it did not suggest she personally knew about it or directed any kind of action. Her "campaign" is the bad guy here. I can completely see a self righteous liberal campaign manager in California doing exactly what that article said they did and she never needed to know about it or be involved in it at all.

 

This story, if true, is more an incitement of a mindset than Hillary Clinton personally.

[Hurlshort]

Well I do agree that it is very likely an overzealous campaign manager.  That would explain the request for phone numbers, as they are basically just volunteers with little actual power.  And yeah, probably from California.  

[Namutree]

This is a ridiculous story.  It smacks a lot more of the Laugh Factory boss trying to drum up attention than an attack on free speech.  

 

Both Clinton and Trump strike me as rather humorless,

Trump humorless? Nonsense. 

[BruceVC]

Actually I find that story to be 100% credible. Hillary Clinton is sour and humorless. She is arrogant and conceited and looks down her nose at those she considers lesser than her image of herself. I can completely believe she would be mortally offended at being the butt of a joke. But that's not why I believe the story. I believe the story because it did not suggest she personally knew about it or directed any kind of action. Her "campaign" is the bad guy here. I can completely see a self righteous liberal campaign manager in California doing exactly what that article said they did and she never needed to know about it or be involved in it at all.

 

This story, if true, is more an incitement of a mindset than Hillary Clinton personally.

Nah, I see this whole incident as just political opportunism

 

Its a way to attempt to  undermine Hilary Clinton and her campaign  and make her look bad ....so in other words its your normal invective that has to have a degree of hyperbole  that  some people will be involved in during the time where people are going to vote. Nothing unusual in the political arena space

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Clinton being a Wall Street shill makes her look far worse than a staffer being assblasted.

[BruceVC]

Clinton being a Wall Street shill makes her look far worse than a staffer being assblasted.

Its funny but this whole " down with Wall Street " I have never really understood

 

We need to recognize the important, some would say critical, role that the various financial institutions and corporations in Wall Street play....an economic reality where Wall Street collapses or is seriously undermined would lead to a global depression

 

So I'm not sure why we seem to have issues with Wall Street, we should try to see Wall Street as a real friend of the free market and sustainable economic growth 

[Orogun01]

 

Clinton being a Wall Street shill makes her look far worse than a staffer being assblasted.

Its funny but this whole " down with Wall Street " I have never really understood

 

We need to recognize the important, some would say critical, role that the various financial institutions and corporations in Wall Street play....an economic reality where Wall Street collapses or is seriously undermined would lead to a global depression

 

So I'm not sure why we seem to have issues with Wall Street, we should try to see Wall Street as a real friend of the free market and sustainable economic growth 

 

Spoken like a true foreigner, right now we all hate corporations and the Fed for ****ing the economy, hijacking the government, getting bailed on tax dollars and just for making everyone's lives harder all around.