Confirmed - per-encounter spells are getting nerfed

[Infinitron]

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3706905&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=8#post450782810

 

 

 

In the relatively near future, the current switchover of low level spells to per encounter is going to be changed. Instead, the "Vancian" casters will pick a spell of that level or lower as a mastered spell. A mastered spell can be cast 1/Encounter in addition to all other uses. Wizards do not need to have this spell in their currently equipped grimoire to take advantage of it.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Infinitron

[Teioh_White]

As far as balance is concerned, it's a good change. Casters will still be amazing and better, of course, but at least I can't just stun lock and AoE an entire group every encoutner with one character anymore.

 

Also, on a personal note, fun to think of what spell to shove inthe per encounter slots. I imagine Wizzy will want to put haste in the 3 slot, which will still give them some comfy margins. Priest could do both blessings with a repulse seal.

[AndreaColombo]

Sounds like a good change. Casters will still be able to cast spells per-encounter and will gain flexibility as the mastered spell won't need to be memorized, but they won't be oozing cheese all over.

 

Well then. Let's enjoy the cheese fest while it lasts

[Caerdon]

Sounds good to me.

 

I never liked how an entire spell level suddenly changes from 4/rest to 4/encounter, that's just too much of a leap. I would've just made the change gradual, i.e. 4/R > 1/E + 3/R > 2/E + 2/R > 3/E + 1/R > 4/E.

[gkathellar]

Let me straighten this out. Currently, casters could nova with their low-level spells several times per rest. Now, casters will instead have additional castings of their low-level spells to throw on top of their existing nova, making it even bigger than it was before. Wizards will also get to fit an extra low-level spell in their grimoire, presumably because they couldn't already do absolutely everything at a time.

 

So ... they're addressing something which many people don't even see as a problem by aggravating a larger and more systemic issue.

 

*jazz hands*

[FlintlockJazz]

Let me straighten this out. Currently, casters could nova with their low-level spells several times per rest. Now, casters will instead have additional castings of their low-level spells to throw on top of their existing nova, making it even bigger than it was before. Wizards will also get to fit an extra low-level spell in their grimoire, presumably because they couldn't already do absolutely everything at a time.

 

So ... they're addressing something which many people don't even see as a problem by aggravating a larger and more systemic issue.

 

*jazz hands*

I believe it replaces the nova rather than adds to it. 

[Gfted1]

[gkathellar]

 

 

Let me straighten this out. Currently, casters could nova with their low-level spells several times per rest. Now, casters will instead have additional castings of their low-level spells to throw on top of their existing nova, making it even bigger than it was before. Wizards will also get to fit an extra low-level spell in their grimoire, presumably because they couldn't already do absolutely everything at a time.

 

So ... they're addressing something which many people don't even see as a problem by aggravating a larger and more systemic issue.

 

*jazz hands*

I believe it replaces the nova rather than adds to it.

About that:

 

A mastered spell can be cast 1/Encounter in addition to all other uses.

Emphasis mine. What you're saying would be more reasonable, yes, but it's not what Josh said.

[Kriber22]

Seems OK to me. The current system of a whole level of spells going from "per rest" to "per encounter" was a pretty huge leap, much as I enjoyed it.

 

It would be nice if this feature kicked in before level 9, though. Or took effect at every level starting at 9, and not every other level.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

Let me straighten this out. Currently, casters could nova with their low-level spells several times per rest. Now, casters will instead have additional castings of their low-level spells to throw on top of their existing nova, making it even bigger than it was before. Wizards will also get to fit an extra low-level spell in their grimoire, presumably because they couldn't already do absolutely everything at a time.

 

So ... they're addressing something which many people don't even see as a problem by aggravating a larger and more systemic issue.

 

*jazz hands*

I believe it replaces the nova rather than adds to it.

About that:

 

A mastered spell can be cast 1/Encounter in addition to all other uses.

Emphasis mine. What you're saying would be more reasonable, yes, but it's not what Josh said.

 

Wait, am I understanding you right?  I think you were saying that they would continue to be able to blast out spells per encounter in addition to this change, but from my reading the quote says " the current switchover of low level spells to per encounter is going to be changed. Instead, the "Vancian" casters will pick a spell of that level or lower as a mastered spell." with the bold bit indicating this is a replacement not an addition.

Edited September 29, 2015 by FlintlockJazz

[AndreaColombo]

Gkathellar - "all other uses" in Josh's quote refers to per rest castings. The beginning of the quote clearly states that whole spell levels becoming per encounter is being changed.

 

EDIT - I've been ninja'd.

Edited September 29, 2015 by AndreaColombo

[FlintlockJazz]

 

EDIT - I've been ninja'd.

It's a gift of mine.

[gkathellar]

Gkathellar - "all other uses" in Josh's quote refers to per rest castings. The beginning of the quote clearly states that whole spell levels becoming per encounter is being changed.

 

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

 

Assuming that Josh was communicating clearly, what this means is that casters' level 1 spells will go from 4/encounter at level 9 to 4/rest + 1/encounter at level 9.

 

Which means, in practice, that in the most important fights - the boss fights that you rest up and get prepped for - casters are going to be stronger.

 

i.e. they won't be able to nova more often come 9th level any more, but their nova will get bigger instead.

Edited September 29, 2015 by gkathellar

[AndreaColombo]

Slightly stronger in a boss fight versus oozing cheese in every encounter sounds like a good change to me?

[FlintlockJazz]

 

Gkathellar - "all other uses" in Josh's quote refers to per rest castings. The beginning of the quote clearly states that whole spell levels becoming per encounter is being changed.

 

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

 

Assuming that Josh was communicating clearly, what this means is that casters' level 1 spells will go from 4/encounter at level 9 to 4/rest + 1/encounter at level 9.

 

Which means, in practice, that in the most important fights - the boss fights that you rest up and get prepped for - casters are going to be stronger.

 

i.e. they won't be able to nova more often come 9th level any more, but their nova will get bigger instead.

 

That's... a really good point.  I didn't think of that, and assuming they don't put their mastered spell in the grimoire either then they will also increase the number of spell choices they get to make too to five.  This also makes the suggestions some people made in the other thread also potentially even worse (I include my questions about increasing per rest spells amongst that).

[Infinitron]

No, it's not a good point, it's a completely trite point. Stronger by one cast of one single spell? Big deal.

 

Being able to spam four Slickens on every encounter was the problem. Going all out on the bosses is something you could do in any game of this type even without the existence of per-encounter mechanics.

 

And no, they don't need to increase the number of per-rest casts to compensate. It's fine the way it is.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Infinitron

[Gunnar.Maluf]

Slightly stronger in a boss fight versus oozing cheese in every encounter sounds like a good change to me?

I don't see why it was cheesy before. Because in a game where resting is not a problem, not even while reaching the last boss, per encounter or per rest doesnt make any diference in practice.

 

If you fought, and now can only cast 2 spells instead of 4 fix it by resting. 

 

Now, increasing the number of spells that can be cast, that's another story.

[curryinahurry]

Great change, and what I think many people who were around during the Backer period thought was going to be implementation of the per rest >>>> per encounter.  I am expecting this to possible be the first of several passes at balancing out the per encounter spells.  Obsidian might, in a future patch, allow for one favored per level from level 9 (as another poster suggested), or start favored spells at a lower level.  Either way, it's a change for the better and returns an important strategic element to gameplay.

 

Next I hope, they start looking at metamagic feats for levels 15+ in WM2

[Gunnar.Maluf]

No, it's not a good point, it's a completely trite point. Stronger by one cast? Big deal.

 

Being able to spam four Slickens on every encounter was the problem. Going all out on the bosses is something you could do in any game of this type even without the existence of per-encounter mechanics.

 

And no, they don't need to increase the number of per-rest casts to compensate. It's fine the way it is.

This will not prevent the 4 slickens. Wanna slicken your way through? Rest before each fight.

 

The only place it will make a difference is in the pit. Other than that you can just rest as much as you want.

[Infinitron]

Oh give me a break. 

[Gunnar.Maluf]

Oh I see...you don't have enough coin to buy camping supplies. Poor you. :D

[View619]

Yes, you can abuse the rest mechanic to ensure that your spell slots are always available. But that's a player choice and not everybody wants to rest after each battle; some players actually try to limit resting for role-playing/challenge purposes.

 

At the moment, there's nothing I can really do about the fact that I get 4 free spell slots per encounter. Do I pretend they are all for rest? Avoid using the spells entirely? At least with this change, players have to choose to willingly "abuse" the system to get full spell slots for use during each encounter.

Edited September 29, 2015 by View619

[AndreaColombo]

Indeed.

 

I don't rest before trash mobs to replenish spells, but if spells are given to me freely you bet your arse I'm going to spam them every encounter and why should I not, if they are there for the casting?

[tinysalamander]

Back to entertaining Blast then, surely, that'll make fights more interesting just like it was at lower levels :}

[FlintlockJazz]

Back to entertaining Blast then, surely, that'll make fights more interesting just like it was at lower levels :}

 

This is my thought too.  Trash mobs I won't waste the per rest spells on, which means this change is going to drag out the mob fights more as I conserve the spells for the important stuff while being made more powerful for the actual important fights...  I'm totally sure this will add sooooo much tactical depth...