Level 12 Offensive skill help.

[Ymarsakar]

Also Vulnerable attack affects only attack speed not total action speed.

 

I just ran a quick test counting swings of two guys with the same dex, both in plate swinging Great Swords, one with Vulnerable Attack and one with out. At about the same moment that one guy had 22 swings, the other had 20. This puts it a lot closer to a total -10% action speed malus not 20%.

 

Maybe faster weapons are affected more due to less fixed pause in the action chain.

 

I did another quick test of two guys in plate with great swords one running Vulnerable Attack, hitting two targets with 5 DR robes. The guy using Vulnerable Attack killed his target first by 13 swings. The targets have 1600+ health so it takes at least 100 swings to drop them and their deflection is high enough to not allow crits. I'm assuming that over 100 attacks you'll follow normal probabilities.

 

I tried it with the attackers naked in case the plate recovery speed was affecting the result. I tried it with Exceptional Great Swords instead of Fine ones. Every time the guy using Vulnerable Attack on a target with only 5 DR dropped his guy first.

 

I even tried it with naked monks (level 12) with fists against 5 DR robes and got the same result. DR bypass does more damage over time even with only 5 DR

 

I've seen it stated that -50% armor recovery = -33% action speed. Maybe the -20% attack speed  = -13%  So like 7&1/2 attacks or 15 w/o and 13 with, which would get you 13x5 = 65 more damage that would have to be made up from the two extra. Somewhere around 37 average damage [2*(Y-5)=65] per hit it'd be worthwhile to turn off Vulnerable Attack.

 

I'd say that Vulnerable Attack is always better unless something has less than 5 DR, which most things do not.

 

From my own experiments on this, I formulated a hypothesis that the action speed from dex is what is causing the issue. -20% attack speed should be accurate, if we were only counting the frames from recovery, but an actual attack simulation like the one you ran also counts the frames from the attack itself, the action animation affected by dexterity.

 

So the slower the weapon, the more action frames it has due to statistics. The faster the weapon attacks, the more animation frames go up and if the recovery is really long and the attack animation is really really fast, then it gets to close to 20% attack speed difference. If not, there's like 10-15% difference for vulnerable attack's -20% attack speed debuff.

 

There's also the issue of whether there is any upper or lower limit on attack speed which comes when you stack too many recovery debuffs on one person. Similar to how there's an upper limit ceiling on the attack speed for a person buffed to +100% attack speed, which is actually more than 2x the attacks with fast weapons.

 

I tried it with Exceptional Great Swords instead of Fine ones. Every time the guy using Vulnerable Attack on a target with only 5 DR dropped his guy first.

 

The issue is if the main poster is using a superb weapon, soulbound. That's where the limit starts getting fuzzy.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Vorad]

I don't think Immolation profits from Vulnarable Attack since it's a non melee periodical AOE burn attack. But Scion oft Flame works - also for FoD. I took Lead Spitter for alpha FoD strikes and added penetrating shot instead of Vulnarable Attack (and also Ryona's Vembraces) for a nice 15 DR bypass on my alpha strike and I'm constantly hitting above 140 if the target doesn't have superhigh burn DR. Then I run into the mob and turn on Sacred Immolation. Then my barb dragon leaps beside me and starts to carnage-stun everybody - which lets my immolation hit/crit even more while it heals my barb. Pouf! Everybody's dead in seconds. In Act III... with PotD... including bounties and such. Very easy - I think Thaos will be a walk in the park. Now I really love paladins.

Thaos, Adra, etc they are all a walk in the park now especially with perception contributing actively to accuracy. Perhaps the future bosses on next expansion should be immune to cc... just like Demogorgon in BG for example

[Boeroer]

You're right. I did Thaos yesterday and it was silly. Repulsing Seal and a Rogue are enough to kill him without getting hit at all. Best thing is to put a seal where he will be standing when the fight starts. But also CC from my wizard hit a 100%.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

^ did you try PotD Thaos scaled up to 14th level? I could beat him at my first try with a fully custom party, but my CC/debuffs rarely landed (and my Wizard had high PER.)

[Vorad]

^ did you try PotD Thaos scaled up to 14th level? I could beat him at my first try with a fully custom party, but my CC/debuffs rarely landed (and my Wizard had high PER.)

Yep that's what I was talking about. Potd fully scaled I just cast 1 slumber they all went prone for 24 sec so I had enough time to spam debuffs and the dots from wizard and druid and priest then when thaos was 50% hp I droped a gaze of adragan on top of that... the next second he died 800 crushing damage + 250 burning damage(chanter buff) from Concellhaut's hammer. Similar outcome with Adra, White dragon, etc... then again perhaps it's our fault maybe running a less optimized party might be more interesting because right now with spellcaster and accuracy buff by act 2 and onward the challenge drops dramatically.

 

PS: On a more serious note that Concelhaut's hammer seem to do a lot of damage I tried it again and this time without petrification is did 200+ graze + 50 burn(chanter) I think I'm reporting this.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Vorad

[LaSpeakeasi]

Whatever you do - be sure to take Immolation and Scion of Flame to turn your tanky paladin into a real good damage dealer who also heals while he burns.

Besides that I would take the weapon focus of the ranged weapon you're using for your FoD alpha strike - the sleeper will also work with that focus, since it's a soulbound weapon. So you will tune up both weapons with one Talent point - ranged and sleeper.

Personally, I feel like pallys' dmg potential for the most part just isn't enough to make a sizable dent, especially with burn being one of the more resisted dmg types in game anyway.

 

Not sure what the OP's stats are, but I personally use Pallegina and try to make the most out of her decent perception. Weapon Focus: Knight (morning star) and Interrupting Blow can ensure that she interrupts whoever she hits all the time for an entire second. There is a late-game morning star that lets you drain dmg too. All of those combined makes her a more than potent tank.

[Boeroer]

It's not late game. You can get it pretty early if you want.

 

My paldin with high might and per, scion of flame and sacred immolation is going through the roof - DPS wise.

 

Plus: no dex needed.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Boeroer

[Torm51]

It's not late game. You can get it pretty early if you want.

 

My paldin with high might and per, scion of flame and sacred immolation is going through the roof - DPS wise.

 

Plus: no dex needed.

How do you think it will perform on a Paladin with 15 Might (unbuffed) and average (10 Per) I didn't dump a stat so I couldn't fit Per and hes mainly a durable Frontliner.

 

I might take Healing Chain instead of I think it will miss too much.  my acc isn't terrible as I use a Buckler or a 2hander.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Torm51

[Boeroer]

Immolation's ACC is not influenced by shields. But it profits from zealous focus etc. It's like an aoe damage and heal spell with your paladin in the centre. 15 MIG without gear is certainly good enough. If it has 85 or 95 ACC - it will hit most mobs and burn them for good damage. I also have healing chain and used it like... once or so? But you can easily see yourself and retrain if you don't like it. I think my pal had 17 mig without gear and no other damage bonuses that count - besides scion of flame. And he had max INT. Every pulse of immolation scorched most enemies around him for ~30 burn damage - and that's without any DR bypass - while healing friends around him. Maybe he critted a lot, I don't know. But it turned him from an alpha strike tank into a really good damage dealer. And you still don't have to micro him a lot.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Boeroer

[Torm51]

That's exactly what I am at level 11 an alpha strike tank. I will go for it m

[Ymarsakar]

This is why I tried not to level up my characters in POTD, the IE Mod that makes higher levels take more xp is also pretty good for that reason.

[Nobear]

Immolation's ACC is not influenced by shields.

 

Are you sure? It's my impression that the medium/large shield penalty affects everything, including melee and spells, but that weapon accuracy bonuses don't help spells. I thought I'd observed this in the combat log, but it's been a while TBH.

[Boeroer]

Really? I had Little Saviour when I started to use Immolation and I can't say it did influence the spell ACC. But on the other hand: 2.01 was so bugged...

[KDubya]

Isn't Little Savior a small shield so it doesn't have an accuracy malus?

[Nobear]

Really? I had Little Saviour when I started to use Immolation and I can't say it did influence the spell ACC. But on the other hand: 2.01 was so bugged...

 

 

Isn't Little Savior a small shield so it doesn't have an accuracy malus?

 

This. I'd be very surprised if Immolation's accuracy wasn't brought down by a medium or large shield, but a lot of paladins prefer certain small shields anyway, and this is just another advantage to going that route.

[Boeroer]

Argh! So sorry - you're obviously right. So maybe I will just load the old save and switch the the Saviour for Old Gerun's Wall or something - then we know for sure.

[Ymarsakar]

Large shields reduce the accuracy of wizard spells, so if the ability is counted like that, it would get debuffed.

[Boeroer]

You were right: I just did a quick test with an old savegame in Sun in Shadows. I switched from Little Saviour to Old Gerun's Wall during fight.

 

Sacred Immolation's ACC wit Little Saviour (-0 ACC):

ACC 67.

 

With Old Gerun's Wall (-8 ACC):

ACC 59.

 

So your best choice for shields (if you want to use Sacred Immolation) would be Little Saviour or a fully upgraded Outworn Buckler since you won't have any ACC malus and still have very high deflection while buffing your buddies. 

 

Nice - I learned something new today. Now back to my 6 rogues party... 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Boeroer