Trying to decide whether to give this a second chance

[Cantousent]

I use the actual codes for that very reason, oaktownbrown. Sometimes the long trees get to be a bit much, but don't sweat it now. I'm heading to bed soon, but I'll try to figure out a quick and painless way to explain it and probably PM you or maybe post it in this thread just in case other folks have the same question. Maybe not for a couple of days as life is, as always, so busy for me! :Cant's wry grin icon:

[Michael_Galt]

A funny thing, guys who say combat in PoE sucks always compare it to classics like BG, but overall, despite some flaws combat system is pretty similar, but in all honesty, no one can name SINGLE cRPG in last 10 years which has better combat or overall roleplaying feeling than PoE. That's something, isn't it?

Totally disagree.  Fallout: NV, as a great example.  Not original IP, but FULL of different role-playing options (meaning, solutions to quests, and means to build unique characters that were truly distinct from others).  Someone mentioned the Shadowrun series.  I think that it offers many more role-playing options, and even that the combat is better.  I haven't played the Witcher 3, but I have heard it has an amazing story and character interaction, and that it really does play very differently based off of the decisions you make in game.

[Stoner]

 

no one can name SINGLE cRPG in last 10 years which has better combat or overall roleplaying feeling than PoE.

That's highly subjective and therefore highly debatable. While I do feel like PoE is a lot of fun and the combat really isn't that different from BG; except er, BG had more sophisticated AI (what the hell, Obsidian?). A lot of people take issue with stat system being too realistic (wizards require high Might? WTF?) which in turns breaks RP.

 

And I can't fault them for that. I would much rather they go back to the classic stat system.

 

Divinity: Original Sin was considered better than PoE in the combat department. And I am impartial either way. But I had tons of fun play D:OS. It had some brilliant innovations that PoE so sorely lacked.

 

There are many games that does RP better than PoE in one way or another:

 

- Dragonfall and SR: HK came to mind. The RP element was incorporated into the gameplay. I wished PoE had taken a note from HBS. But you already know that.

- Dragon Age's Thedas is just a better, more "modern" setting than Eora. PoE at its core is stuck in 2000. Audiences have moved on from the PG-13 dark fantasy. Thedas has gay people, and religious fundamentalism, racism and class struggle - these are the things that strike a cord with today's audience; opportunities that PoE missed.

 

 

Good post here, I've been waiting for something like this, now let's see things from another perspective:

I too finished D:OS few times and was comparing combat (solely combat) to PoE and what it comes down to isn't very good in fact. One thing that D:OS absolutely excells at are raw combat mechanics, but execution is simply too bad. They made outstanding system but failed to properly make it work. D:OS combat completely depends on very cheesy and dumb exploits, it has few, very powerfull combinations and as soon as you figure them out (and that's happen pretty soon) you literally get into god-mode, devastating everything with mindnumbing ease. Despite that game advertises non-class system, but it basically has only 2 viable classes: Warrior and Mage, everything else has it uses but cannot compare in power to this duo even close.

 

Warrior is BEST damage dealer in the game, he's literally immortal so you can easily enchant his armor for ~100%+ element absorbation which heals you while getting hit, has high armor rating and health. We max his Strength and Constitution, rest points go to Speed, dump everything else and there you have a beast which can chop everything with lightning speed and stay alive forever

 

Mage is most flexible class in game. You can basically make anything out of him just with help of magic. Uber winning strategy: create 2 mages with Lonewolf perk, spread Elements (Fire/Water for one Earth/Lightning for another), also you'll have tons of spare points which you don't really have any use for and can dump in pretty much anything, doesn't matter. You max Intellect and Speed, nothing else, when you have spare, up Con or Per, doesn't matter rly. Before each combat cast 2 Golems, AI is nonexistant so they will attack these dummies, and with insane speed on both characters you just sit there and perma-paralize (rain/lightning) or perma-freeze, or kill outright with oil+fire. Anything coming close gets teleported far away and so on... No one can touch you. That said, you have tons of shields for each element (even Immortality in Witchcraft), insane healing and you literally can recast Golems each turn (considering each mage has 2).

 

All other classes are, well... not so good, and I personally don't see any reason in playing them. Maybe Rouge can be considered good, with him you can solo most of the content but you have to be super careful and it takes insane amounts of time. Marksman is just gimped Mage, and system punishes multiclass because each skill tree depends on unique attribute, and if you go for multiclass, you'll just won't have enough points so build will be broken and very weak. There's NO tank or support roles in games, just few god-mode builds totally bent around pure damage and cc, nothing else. Levelling is sooo simplified, I don't know if devs truly had no better idea or were so over their heads to not scare off casual gamers with more complex system, looks just parhetic tbh, dumpstats everywhere... Also regarding combat system, I LOVE turn-based combat, but the way its done in this game, it's just irritatingly slow... As in any RPG we have plenty of trashmob encounters and when in PoE I clear them in few seconds on auto, in D:OS I have to sit long minutes through AI turns, especially when pack is huge. Considering EACH encounter starts and ends the same way (with single powerfull combo) it makes you sleep through it...

 

So we have half-baked combat system which doesn't do its job, but with great potential, incredible interactive but small world, VERY BAD writing: feels like it was written by sad 13 YO girl dumped by her boyfriend with some Biblical (totally out of place) motives (just remember the plot, no spoilers), to draw more epicness to story, I'm sure. And same very low level of "humour"... Seriously, I have played Dragon Commander, gameplay of this game sucks unbelievably hard but writing is fantastic, characters are great, humour is THERE, I can't believe same people were working on both of these games... This is much of an IMO but to be honest, many ppl aren't satisfied with writing, and to majority it probably feels the same way as to me, check steam reviews. So all in all this is FAR from good RPG.

 

Now Dragon Age. I won't even mention 2 and 3, because it's simply one huge embarassment, but as for Origins, what do we have? Ok'ish RP, levelling system even more dumbed down than in D:OS, stupid combat system with nonexistant AI full of exploits and fights tied to cc skills timers... non-working classes (my Mage was better tank then Warrior in Heavy Armor, ROFL*) and so on. Linear plot with evil arch-demon dragon which want to destroy the world, not generic at all... It may be considered as mediocre game, but in all honesty it sucks and cannot be compared even close to classics on ANY account.

 

And the last one - Shadowrun, well, I won't say the word about DMS but Dragonfall is a true masterpiece, no argument here (haven't played Hong-Kong yet but I'm sure it's on par) but it excells in only few aspects - writning, RP and atmosphere, combat and levelling is waaay to simplistic which isn't bad really, but that's a weak point which don't let this game reach some quality heights.

 

And here we have PoE: decent writing, good RP, very good combat, gorgeos visual style/sounds, fantastic atmosphere and overall feeling of the game, everything simply FITS in here, nothing feels out of place. It has flaws, sure, but in each aspect it can be easily rated as good and above. PoE has everything cRPG fan may want from this game purely objectively. Some ppl may not like something particular but at the same time game hasn't any aspect completely broken, and that's huge advantage in my book.

 

@Zherot

I wasn't "attacking" anyone, bro, we just share opinions here, I did not intended to offend people, sorry if you felt that way.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Stoner

[Cantousent]

I think it's impossible to quantify tastes. Don't get me wrong, you can make reasonable and cogent arguments for why one game is better than another. You can't make a purely logical argument for the simple reason that logic does not dictate tastes. Are there are rational objective statements one can make about art? Sure. Is there any pure logical statements to quantify tastes? I don't believe so.

 

That's why we have such a huge variety of literature, T.V. shows, movies, and music. You might love the complexities of Schoenberg, and I can't deny his genius, but I swear to goodness I would rather listen to a current rendition of the Turkey in the Straw.

 

That said, part of the joy for most of the people here is the lively debate. Debate and discussion is one of the great things about this board. At least that's my opinion based on personal taste. :Cant's wink and grin icon:

 

As for you, oaktown, I was going to take a screenie to show how I deal with trimming quotes, but I'm afraid it will confuse you more than the current system. If you want to use the standard interface, just practice with deleting the standard interface and it will become easier. It's less precise, but I can't imagine anyone will complain at you for making errors.

 

Oh, by the way, Zork is the best computer game franchise, bar none. That, my friends, is a statement of fact... of course. :Cant's big beefy grin icon:

[Oralaina]

When I get really annoyed with the way IP board insists on screwing up quoting, I pull up the source for the page, copy the relevant section, and then paste into the post screen.  That's not real easy for people who don't have a background in html etc.

 

This particular quoting system is total crap, and Obs should get someone to whackattack it asap....

[Tigranes]

Like any forum several years old, the Obsidian forum now has a life of its own, and will gobble up your children if you dare to temper with its code. 

[Oralaina]

Like any forum several years old, the Obsidian forum now has a life of its own, and will gobble up your children if you dare to temper with its code. 

 

ROFL!!!  Well, probably not quite that bad.  At least it's still recognizably IP board....  I realize that funding a total whack of a currently more-or-less functioning forum setup is most likely not a good use of money.  Especially since most people these days think social media is the way to go....

[Selphea]

My main complaint about combat is that the difficulty scaling is very spiky. I could steamroll a whole map then run across a boss that wipes the party in a single breath while everything I do to it misses outright. Then I Google it and find out I was actually two levels below the recommended level of the thing.

 

So I go do some other sidequests to level up and run through a very long dungeon where the boss fight scripts your party to enter the room in a specific formation which puts two of my squishiest characters in front, and when the fight starts they get paralyzed, then proned while being focused. Won this by sacrificing the squishy and choking the group at a door.

 

Went to Endless Depths and again there's a boss fight where the whole party is scripted to go in with the squishy people in front. Won this by (yep) sacrificing the squishy and choking the group at a door.

 

I've taken to putting my main character in armor, reshuffling the party and doing some respecs but the Add/Dismiss interface seems to be random. For some reason Eder seems to be stuck in 5th place no matter what order I invite party members in.

 

After all that I probably ended up overlevelled and it's been smooth sailing so far - if there's trouble just run to a door and choke the other group, but it does feel kind of cheesy doing that.

[wanderon]

Oh, by the way, Zork is the best computer game franchise, bar none. That, my friends, is a statement of fact... of course. :Cant's big beefy grin icon:

 

You have been eaten by a Grue...

[oaktownbrown]

Thanks for the replies about trimming quotes, Cantousent and Oraliana. I can't seem to quote now but maybe I'll eventually figure it out.

 

"That's why we have such a huge variety of literature, T.V. shows, movies, and music. You might love the complexities of Schoenberg, and I can't deny his genius, but I swear to goodness I would rather listen to a current rendition of the Turkey in the Straw."

I was thinking about how I rank RPGs today. It's interesting bc I think that my top 12 or so RPGs (counting Wizardry 6 - 8 as one game and Ultima 4 - 7 as one game, even though I know 4 is not part of the second trilogy) are almost interchangable for me. I have favorites among that group but I could honestly make decent arguments for ranking any of them first or last. And that's just me, others would undoubtedly legitimately rank at least some of them significantly lower. FWIW, when I thought about my favorite cRPG series, I somewhat tentatively decided that Realms of Arkania was it but only because I like all three a lot so none of them bring the overall rating down much. Only Star Trail stands out in that group IMO. Zork was before I got into computer games so I'll have to defer to you about it being the best computer game franchise.

 

Stoner, I mostly agree with what you say about PoE. I think that's one reason people disagree about how to rank it. It's competent in pretty much all areas but doesn't really do any of them especially well IMO. So is that better or worse than a game like D:OS which, for me, is subpar in many areas but is brilliant in one (even if that one area is mostly potential because the combat itself wasn't executed well in the game)? Is it better to have a solid game that never shines or a game that shines in one aspect but falls quite short in many others? That's very subjective. Then people are going to disagree about particular aspects of any game (unless it's truly outstanding or one of the worst ever in that aspect) and how important each of those aspects is for them in determining overall quality.

 

I'd rank Fallout: New Vegas quite a bit higher than PoE, at least at this stage of PoE's development, but that was the only recent cRPG that I thought was clearly better than PoE. I thought that the world was deeper and better executed. I liked the companions. I really liked the factions, especially those beyond the required ones (i.e., not Caesar's Legion, the NPC, Mr. House, or Yes Man). I think the reputation systems in PoE and FO:NV were similar. I like that about both games.There were a lot of choice and consequences in FO:NV compared to most cRPGs, although I'm not a fan of having so much of that be tied to the ending slides, as it was in both FO:NV and PoE. The builds in FO:NV were adequately diversified, although I liked the build diversity better in PoE. I don't expect anyone to agree but friendly disagreement is welcome.

Edited September 20, 2015 by oaktownbrown

[oaktownbrown]

Thanks for the replies about trimming quotes, Cantousent and Oralaina. I can't seem to quote now but maybe I'll eventually figure it out.

 

"That's why we have such a huge variety of literature, T.V. shows, movies, and music. You might love the complexities of Schoenberg, and I can't deny his genius, but I swear to goodness I would rather listen to a current rendition of the Turkey in the Straw."

I was thinking about how I rank cRPGs today. It's interesting bc I think that my top 12 or so cRPGs (counting Wizardry 6 - 8 as one game and Ultima 4 - 7 as one game, even though I know 7 is not part of the second trilogy) are almost interchangable for me. I have favorites among that group but I could honestly make decent arguments for ranking any of them first or last. And that's just me, others would undoubtedly legitimately rank at least some of them significantly lower. FWIW, when I thought about my favorite cRPG series, I somewhat tentatively decided that Realms of Arkania was it but only because I like all three a lot so none of them bring the overall rating down much. Only Star Trail stands out in that group IMO. Zork was before I got into computer games so I'll have to defer to you about it being the best computer game franchise.

 

Stoner, I mostly agree with what you say about PoE. I think that's one reason people disagree about how to rank it. It's competent in pretty much all areas but doesn't really do any of them especially well IMO. So is that better or worse than a game like D:OS which, for me, is subpar in many areas but is brilliant in one (even if that one area is mostly potential because the combat itself wasn't executed well in the game)? Is it better to have a solid game that never shines or a game that shines in one aspect but falls quite short in many others? That's very subjective. Then people are going to disagree about particular aspects of any game (unless it's truly outstanding or one of the worst computer games ever in that aspect) and how important each of those aspects is for them in determining overall quality.

 

I'd rank Fallout: New Vegas quite a bit higher than PoE, at least at this stage of PoE's development, but that was the only recent cRPG that I thought was clearly better than PoE. I thought that the world was deeper and better executed. I liked the companions. I really liked the factions, especially those beyond the required ones (i.e., not Caesar's Legion, the NPC, Mr. House, or Yes Man). I think the reputation systems in PoE and FO:NV were similar. I like that about both games.There were a lot of choice and consequences in FO:NV compared to most cRPGs, although I'm not a fan of having so much of that be tied to the ending slides, as it was in both FO:NV and PoE. The builds in FO:NV were adequately diversified, although I liked the build diversity better in PoE. I don't expect anyone to agree but friendly disagreement is welcome.

Edited September 20, 2015 by oaktownbrown

[ComplyOrDie]

I think Pillars does some things pretty damn well, art, setting, atmosphere for starters. I think combat has great potential and preferred it at a basic level to DOS. Both games actually suffer similar issues although Larian are trying to address that which is the games are seriously easy on max difficulty. DOS is at least consistently challenging in the first area on hard until it totally falls off. Pillars PoTD is more the odd well designed fight in a sea of I don't even need to pause this encounters. It's blatant, and perhaps understandable, that it wasn't given much attention, whacking a bunch more dumb enemies to make a fight difficult when a player has so many options at their disposal never works.

 

It's impossible to truly judge the combat system when you dont need to pay attention for the majority of the game anyway.

 

For me this just prevents me from continuing, as it did with DOS (looking forward to enhanced edition).

 

I do agree there is a bit of a lack of non direct damage related spells too.

Edited September 20, 2015 by ComplyOrDie

[Luj1]

, no one can name SINGLE cRPG in last 10 years which has better combat or overall roleplaying feeling than PoE.

 

 

lol?

 

 

fanboy much?

 

that's overreacting bro

[Luj1]

I think Pillars does some things pretty damn well, art, setting, atmosphere for starters.

 

Does?

 

Better world is "replicates"

 

 

yes poe replicates nostalgia pretty well, which aint as hard as you think

[LaSpeakeasi]

 

I think Pillars does some things pretty damn well, art, setting, atmosphere for starters.

 

Does?

 

Better world is "replicates"

 

yes poe replicates nostalgia pretty well, which aint as hard as you think

 

I wouldn't say it's hard. But it's definitely a lot of effort. cRPG isn't as big as it used to be. And the sheer amount of financing, writing and production that went into the game deserves some credit, even if there is lack of innovation here.

 

Sadly the same credit can't go towards QA...

[toroks]

Is there a combat log with dice rolls in DOS?