Is Wizard still garbage?

[Oralaina]

wizard is so versatile in that they have a answer for everything its silly to call them garbage. Obsidian went overboard on this to the point I think cipher, and druids, priests could use more power in either their spell selection or core class powers.

 

Boy, you said a mouthful.  Lots of times, my wiz has literally blown a mob apart before the rest of the group gets their stuff together.  And these aren't low level to the group either.... in fact, I'm taking on the fampyres in the Endless Paths probably a couple of levels early and having no problems.

 

Saw a post somewhere about an all-wizard group.  Good LORD.  That wouldn't be any fun at all, because nothing would last long enough to count!

[Zherot]

I wish i could edit the tittle, i apologize for the way i named the thread, i think i just wasnt thinking straight and let myself carried away by a video on the net that turns out wasnt really that accurate.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Zherot

[Oralaina]

I wish i could edit the tittle, i apologize for the way i named the thread, i think i just wasnt thinking straight and let myself carried away by a video on the net that turns out wasnt really that accurate.

 

Yeah.  I think that person didn't have a very coherent grasp of the game, not to mention wiz mechanics.  That's the trouble with stuff like that - a tiny bit of it's good, MOST of it's bad, the rest is either mediocre or totally off base for whatever reason.

[Rathlord]

I thought everything on Youtube was pure, unadulterated fact?

[Oralaina]

I thought everything on Youtube was pure, unadulterated fact?

 

Oh my lord.... I'm nearly 70, and even I know better than that!  *goes off for wine, laughing hysterically*

[Teioh_White]

Yeah, agree with everyone saying Wizard has always been great, and is even better now, if not the best. To be fair though, at launch, a great many people were down on Wizard, and said it was one of the waker classes. This was likely due to a combination of everyone not knowing the in-an-out of the game, as well as mostly being based on Act 1, where a wizard only really has enough spells to dominate 1-2 fights, then take a bit of a rest break, assuming not cheesing the rest.

 

The only real 'downside' I have with Wiz is you have to micro-manage it to get it do much. The new AI is great, and really cuts down on the horrible tedium the game launched with, but some classes still need a lot of manual control under them, wizard being one of them. If the rest of your part is mostly fire-and-forget characters, it's fine to just mostly pilot the Wizard without the need for massive pausing to slow the flow to a crawl, but if you have a team full of attention-needy classes (multiple wizards included), it can be a drag.

[pi2repsion]

 

All the elemental damage talents are worth it, but there are four of them, and you only get 7 talents total in 14 levels, so if you take them all you are left with a mere 3 talents for everything else. In my old 1.0 build, which I posted in these forums back then, I think I recommended picking up 3-4 of them out of the 6 talents to level 12, but times have changed due to my shift from RES to PER, the higher levelcap, and the new talents.

 

As you can see, in my build I managed to find room for only two of them (the best two for the build, fire and frost), because I considered getting all three Implement boosting talents, the Interruption talent, and the baby sneak attack talent more important than getting the full set.

 

(The baby sneak attack's +15% beating any +20% to one element when I am so late in the game that most enemies are almost always affected by something enabling it, but not really worth picking up earlier.)

 

It would be pretty to have the full set... but while that would be useful and the talents on their own worth having, I just can't see it as being as useful, given the alternatives alternatives available.

 

Well at least you gave me an idea on what to look for, im gonna think about that sneak attack and the dangerous implements, if i really need them or i can replace them with the lighting and corrode talents, im not really a fan of bosting too much pasive auto-attacks and the dangerous implements sounds really dangerous lol considering that i will wave a really low con to begin with.

 

3hp per attack is next to nothing at higher levels - if you don't just ignore it or get it wiped out by a healing wave from Consecrated Ground, there's always putting a Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon on a few enemies to heal yourself. (It is short range and average cast time, but it is a useful thing to slot as one of the extra 2nd level spells when you are not far enough in the game that losing a few hitpoints per attack doesn't matter much. It is preferable not to be in a position to use it due to its very short 5m range, but it is an option). That said, you definitely have a point regarding such auto-attacks - most of the time you'll be using spells, after all.

 

But which spells are you going to be using? Those spells are almost invariably going to be fire or frost spells - the two elemental types I picked talents for, as most of the good damage spells of all spell levels deal those two types of damage, and both of the two fast cast AOEs for level 3 and 4 are these two types as well.

 

The best as a third would be corrode, so if you are going for a third, pick this, due to spell level 2 having Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon, Necrotic Lance, and (in 2.01, but not 2.00, alas for me, Concelhaut's Draining Missiles). And that's about it. You are not going to use the 3rd level Noxious Burst corrode AOE all that often, as it is the same spell level as fireball and has roughly equivalent stats overall, but takes average time to cast rather than being a fast cast. Sure, it sickens too, but you are better off chaining more spells, and you only have four slots available. You are also not going to use the 6th level Death Ring... well, okay, you might, but it is outdamaged by Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar, so the number of spells that you'll be using regularly that are boosted by the corrode talent is quite low.

 

Lightning is even worse off. Are you going to be using the level 1 Jolting Touch (short range, 1 target + 2 jump targets) when there's Fan of Flames (huge cone shaped AOE) and Ghost Blades (huge cone shaped Foe AOE) to be had? Or level 3 crackling bolt to zap a line rather than fireball to fry a circular area? There might be such situations, but... not often. And as for level 6 Chain Lightning? Sure, it is nice, deals high damage to the target and 5 jump targets, but we are talking about spell level 6, which also provides Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar, which slams down a huge pillar that pulses low  Foe AOE damage and hobbles during its lifetime (14s with my character's INT). Over its lifetime it deals a lot more damage, it hobbles, and, of course, it hits all foes within its AOE range, not "up to six of them". And then there's Minoletta's Precisely Piercing Burst at level 6, which isn't elemental but is fast cast, FoE AOE, and centered on the caster. In other words, if you are not using your 6th level spells to cast the great control spells, the Hex and the Adragan's Gaze but want to do damage, Chain Lightning is probably not the spell you'll want to use in most cases. (Though there may be circumstances where its ability to jump to hit targets far away is  beneficial, or when jumping back and forth between two or three targets might be useful but... most of the time when you are facing many enemies they tend to clump in areas ideal for AOE spells.)

Edited September 14, 2015 by pi2repsion

[Zherot]

You may be right, having too much damaging spells may be redundant specially since the only thing you care about is the damage and in the end i doubt there is gonna be a lot of situations in where you cant just use fire or frost spells, i remember now that this was actually something i didnt liked about this game, spells are redundant, dosent help either that i finished DOS before playing POE, that game has a great way of make magic work so everything its useful and dosent feel redundant and the way the magic interact is just awesome.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Zherot

[gkathellar]

The short version is: Wizards have always been very good, and post-launch they've only gotten stronger (more HP, spell upgrades, etc). 2.0 does make it inadvisable to dump Perception, but better accuracy from a high perception on your CC is fantastic. Perhaps best of all, wizards have really minimal item and talent dependency. Once you have gloves of accuracy and the elemental damage-boosting talents, your wizard is pretty much good to go.

[pi2repsion]

The short version is: Wizards have always been very good, and post-launch they've only gotten stronger (more HP, spell upgrades, etc). 2.0 does make it inadvisable to dump Perception, but better accuracy from a high perception on your CC is fantastic. Perhaps best of all, wizards have really minimal item and talent dependency. Once you have gloves of accuracy and the elemental damage-boosting talents, your wizard is pretty much good to go.

Indeed. While there are many items that improve a wizard's performance, it would be hard to say that any were really important or, even worse, essential. You don't need a good weapon. You don't need good defenses or a good high DR armour unless you want to be a heavily armoured melee wizard. Not that having a good weapon or good defenses isn't useful, but it is much lower priority than for anybody else. For the ranged wizard, it makes focusing on stacking stat upgrades an eminently sensible solution.

 

As an example, at the time I entered act 3, my wizard was using

 

+2 Int helm.

+2 Mig armour with 2DR, 5% recovery penalty.*

+3 Per cloak.

+3 Con belt.

+3 Dex ring.

+15 health boots

the ring of wizardry that grants extra 3rd level spells

spellpower bracers

an excellent rod, that is used when I can't be arsed to fight in trivial combats but let the AI take over while the party chops stuff up. In other words, any ranged implement would do here.

 

* Paying 5% recovery penalty for style is an acceptable tradeoff, and the 5% recovery penalty robes have style in spades** when compared to the DR0, 0% penalty Dyrwood Clothing, even if they do invite frostbite in colder climes. Which is fortunately not modeled in the game.

** Though frankly they don't look all that practical for adventuring. I guess the tailor was suffering from a shortage of cloth to leave so much flesh exposed. But he did well with what he had!

Edited September 14, 2015 by pi2repsion

[Tuckey]

Read this

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/09/14/the-rpg-scrollbars-the-lost-magic-of-magic/

 

Then tell me what you think about wizards in Pillars of Eternity. I would say they are boring damage dealers.

[pi2repsion]

Read this

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/09/14/the-rpg-scrollbars-the-lost-magic-of-magic/

 

Then tell me what you think about wizards in Pillars of Eternity. I would say they are boring damage dealers.

I would suggest you start a thread dedicated to the subject of that RPS post and how it relates to Pillars of Eternity, if you are interested in discussion.

 

It would make a lot more sense than posting it in this thread, as the OP was looking for a "boring damage dealer" using magic and afraid that the Wizard didn't qualify, so your otherwise interesting article would seem to have little relevance to the topic being discussed.

Edited September 15, 2015 by pi2repsion

[Zherot]

Read this

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/09/14/the-rpg-scrollbars-the-lost-magic-of-magic/

 

Then tell me what you think about wizards in Pillars of Eternity. I would say they are boring damage dealers.

 

Can you resume it?, even if its not relevant to the topic i would like to know what it says, too lazy to read it though.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Zherot

[Oralaina]

 

Read this

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/09/14/the-rpg-scrollbars-the-lost-magic-of-magic/

 

Then tell me what you think about wizards in Pillars of Eternity. I would say they are boring damage dealers.

 

Can you resume it?, even if its not relevant to the topic i would like to know what it says, too lazy to read it though.

 

 

I'm not sure you can easily TL;DR that article.  It's a lot of personal opinion with references to many games over the last 30 years.  And really, it has nothing to do with playing a wizard in this game as it's set up right now; it has to do with what one person would like to see happen with magic in games (and fiction).  *shrug*  To me, it's one of those things where, once I read it, I rolled my eyes and said, "If you think you can do better, maybe you should make your own game (or write your own book, whatever....)".

[Dongom]

Wizard is imo easily the best class atm, especially to have as the PC as they are amazing to drive often once you get per encounter.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Dongom

[Guest 4ward]

 

i started PoE on Sunday for the first time, creating a wizard and can confirm that the wizard is dealing most damage now that i've finished the first two areas (on hard). The wizard did 392 damage and mostly by using the same strategy over and over again which in my case was arcane assault and unlimited ammo from the rod. While i encountered different kinds of enemies they all were dispatched easily using the above. I did use the spells i chose at char creation only once in the first battle vs the wolves. Everything else was arcane assault and rod. The thing is that was never the case in the IE games, my first impression is that i'm playing Drakensang in 2d, which is not to say that this is bad just that it's not like what i expected and hoped for. If you have rods and whatnot with unlimited ammo that IMO trivializes the use of other spells, i actually had two crits with it on the humanoid opponents and my wizard dropped just once which was in the second area because he was fatigued and i didn't use the resting supplies (also forgot to use knockdown from the female fighter and blinding strike from the rogue). If Obs is thinking to go back to IE combat one of the things they'd have to do is get rid of unlimited ammunition.

[Tennisgolfboll]

Wizard is imo easily the best class atm, especially to have as the PC as they are amazing to drive often once you get per encounter.

This.

 

 

OP does not know what he is talking about.

 

CC was before the accuracy buff to PE borderline broken. It dominated the game.

 

Now?

 

I redid all the bounties and my wizard could keep all enemies more or less constantly cc on hard.

 

None of the bounties could do even 20% dmg to any of my chars.

[KDubya]

i started PoE on Sunday for the first time, creating a wizard and can confirm that the wizard is dealing most damage now that i've finished the first two areas (on hard). The wizard did 392 damage and mostly by using the same strategy over and over again which in my case was arcane assault and unlimited ammo from the rod. While i encountered different kinds of enemies they all were dispatched easily using the above. I did use the spells i chose at char creation only once in the first battle vs the wolves. Everything else was arcane assault and rod. The thing is that was never the case in the IE games, my first impression is that i'm playing Drakensang in 2d, which is not to say that this is bad just that it's not like what i expected and hoped for. If you have rods and whatnot with unlimited ammo that IMO trivializes the use of other spells, i actually had two crits with it on the humanoid opponents and my wizard dropped just once which was in the second area because he was fatigued and i didn't use the resting supplies (also forgot to use knockdown from the female fighter and blinding strike from the rogue). If Obs is thinking to go back to IE combat one of the things they'd have to do is get rid of unlimited ammunition.

 

 

Why would screwing around with ammo make a difference other than to be tedious? Especially for a rod, I mean what is the ammo for a magic rod, wand or scepter? Unlimited ammo and the unlimited stash are two of the best convenience type changes that they could have made.

 

The fact that Wizards can auto attack very well with talents that add AoE, DR penetration and a +25% damage buff, plus use two per encounter useful Arcane Assaults that are AoE, dazzle and do raw damage makes me question why they get per encounter spells at all?

[FlintlockJazz]

I played and completed my first playthrough as Wizard when Pillars came out, it was never a garbage class.  It starts off a bit weaker due to only having a couple of spells first level per rest but no more than any other caster class and still has per encounter abilities and it soon ramps up rather rapidly.  My badly optimised first playthrough Wizard still ended up one of the best characters in my party and that was before he got to level 9 and 11 and got the per encounter spells.  Love the grimoire system personally, really makes it feel like the Wizard is using a spell book imho.

[Killyox]

Wizard was never garbage. Cipher was too strong. Now? Imo Wizard is at the top imo. But other classes are also pretty good.

 

Also L2Love Ninagauth's Shadowfire I believe is the english name. Frost dmg fireball that paralyzes :> is quick cast too.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Killyox

[Guest 4ward]

 

well, after only 3 areas i've got like 10 or so crafting materials so i understand the need for stash in PoE, crafting wasn't in the IE games and later you'd get bags of holding to put items away. As far as tedious and convenient, i'd prefer 'tediously' tactical combat to just conveniently strategical. Just trying to imagine the Bioware devs back in the days of BG saying 'ok, we'll give you magic missile with unlimited use, spam away!' As i said the unlimited ammo (and i don't care how you'd explain limited ammo for rods, for all i care they could just screw rods altogether) coupled with per-encounter thing has me spamming the same stuff through the first areas. Bioware did it right with how the sorcerer played, it was a good mix of being active but not spamming the same like i'm doing until now in PoE.

[Killyox]

well, after only 3 areas i've got like 10 or so crafting materials so i understand the need for stash in PoE, crafting wasn't in the IE games and later you'd get bags of holding to put items away. As far as tedious and convenient, i'd prefer 'tediously' tactical combat to just conveniently strategical. Just trying to imagine the Bioware devs back in the days of BG saying 'ok, we'll give you magic missile with unlimited use, spam away!' As i said the unlimited ammo (and i don't care how you'd explain limited ammo for rods, for all i care they could just screw rods altogether) coupled with per-encounter thing has me spamming the same stuff through the first areas. Bioware did it right with how the sorcerer played, it was a good mix of being active but not spamming the same like i'm doing until now in PoE.

Of course you were. In IE games caster classes like wizards and mages and sorcs started slowly. They actually ramp up here faster than in IE. 

 

Also they used DnD which they didn't have to design from start and instead were given with all the rules and what is supposed to work how. And it wasn't balanced at all.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Killyox

[FlintlockJazz]

I really like the wands, sceptres and rods, though think they could develop them somewhat more.  I also think the appearance of rods is a bit sucky, I mean what are they meant to be?  I was actually expecting something more like metal 'half-staffs' or canes, but they currently look a bit naff.  Sceptres came out better looking than I expected, and wands I like the looks of the best but they just don't seem to be able to compete, being a bit like magical implement equivalent of the hunting bow imho.

[jsaving]

In defense of the OP, it's worth pointing out that a wizard's effectiveness is highly dependent on knowing which spells work best and casting them accordingly.  If you have a Baldur's Gate mindset and use Minoletta's (magic missile) as your staple spell before switching to fireball at 5th level, you are going to feel like PoE's wizard is weak and ineffective.  If on the other hand you transition from fog/slicken to Kalakoth's at 5th level, you may find yourself wondering whether PoE's wizard makes the game too easy.  

Edited September 15, 2015 by jsaving

[pi2repsion]

I'm not disagreeing with your general point that it is all about knowing when to use which spells, but I have to mention that...

 

Fireballs are awesome, jsaving! Once you've got enough spell slots to spam them, that is.* Not that Kalakoth's Minor Blights aren't awesome too, but it is the choice between very high damage per second (fireball spam with large radius under DAoM hitting lots of targets) and high sustained damage at a low cost in spell slots (slower blight throwing with medium radius under DAoM hitting fewer targets).

 

And once you reach level 7 and have the Shadowflame frostball, and start out hitting enemies with a Shadowflame first (crushing the reflex save of any enemy that the paralysis doesn't miss) before spamming the fireballs, most of your fireballs and frostballs will crit, making it even more absurd, relegating blights to situations where you for whatever reason want to preserve spells, where there are only few enemies, or where a lot of enemies with low DR are gathered very closely together so you get most out of the Blast effect.

 

Both blights and fireballs have their different roles to shine in, and switching to fireball as your main spell damage will only leave you feeling ineffective if you don't play to its strengths.

 

*i.e. level 5+ and the relevant ring to boost L3 slots.

Edited September 15, 2015 by pi2repsion