Paladin Leader in 2.0

[Elric Galad]

Stupid question : does Sacred Immolation has an interrupt value ?

 

If yes, as you're going to have godly perception, it might worth also taking Interrupting blow talent.

[Ymarsakar]

<B>Talents: I don't know exactly the order yet, but more or less the talent would be:</b>

 

Good starting plan so far.

 

Weapon focus soldier goes with flames of devotion and sworn enemy, because all 3 works together to deal solid damage with two handed sword, pike, or shatterstar. Shatterstar is the warhammer one handed, that goes with the shield deflection weapon slot. It gives +1 engagement, so you can save a talent just by using that weapon, which is available early on  at the city store.

 

Strange mercy takes a little bit of observation. Either change your ranged dps to another target when the enemy is at near death, or use the 2 per encounter flames of devotion to get the killing blow. Reminds me of FPS games where you try to kill steal and get final blows on people for more pts. It's like a mini game. But Torm's advice is solid, with lay on hands, you can push off taking strange mercy until you have a solid two handed dps line up. Sworn enemy, flames of devotion, weapon focus soldier. Any two of those should be sufficient damage potential to proc strange mercy well.

 

The exhortations and some other talents are level locked. So until level 4 or 6, you won't see many class talents, which is why people tend to go with lay on hands first. After level 6, however, paladins have so many good talents and class talents that it becomes difficult to choose, even for those experienced with building paladins. That's why I have two paladins in my party now. The two cipher combo was also excellent in my experience, but took a lot of micromanagement and they were kind of squishy.

 

Race: Meadow Folk (interesting abilities, even if our CON is not so great to sustain it. But I wanted it for RP anyway)

 

You could also play a pale elf, the backstory would just be slightly changed for mother and father. Far as I know, only the Aedyr Empire have technical marriages between humans and elves, but there are no half or mixed elves or humans for that matter. So a human picked up by a pale elf family or a pale elf picked up by a human family, in the wild, should work in that context.

 

On another note, the Kind Wayfers feel very close as I've read many stories of knight errants in human history. Learning how to wield a sword in real life was also more fun and exciting than Hollywood movies or most fictional accounts. Here's some interesting vids on the subject.

 

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Edited September 12, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Torm51]

To be honest though most of the order talents are no good other then the Darcozzi accuracy buff. Wayfarer talents are useful early game buy they don't scale. So when you have 200 endurance it will still heal for 20...which is a drop of your End.

[KDubya]

You might want to take Strange mercy at an early opportunity. At low level the +24 endurance heal is more noticeable and appreciated. Plus if you find it totally lackluster at high levels you can re-spec and get something else.

 

If you are not going with a FoD alpha strike with an arquebus you might get better use out of the Sword and Shepherd talent which gets you a mini AoE heal when you use FoD. That would let you control the heal aspect instead of the more difficult to control heal from the on-kill effect.

 

If you bring Pellegrina along with you you'll have two auras, four lay on hands and other Paladin goodies.

 

The only issue I'm having with my Kind Wayfarer is identifying the Passionate responses. Benevolent is easy, avoiding Deceptive is easy. In my normal runs I end up with a few Cruel and Aggressive, in fact pretty much all over the board.

[Tennisgolfboll]

Here is a build i like. Hardest tank. And still good damage. Just try him and you will see.

 

Moon race

Aedyr/ ixamitl.plains

 

Mig 18

Con 18

Dex 3

Per 10

Int 10

Res 19

 

He will be a fantastic tank. Give him the sabre that drains hp and you will be surprised at the damage he deals. Use other sabres before that.

 

Level 2 weapon shield

4 better faith n conv

6 deflection

8 will

10 fort

12 refl

14 cautious attack

 

(last 4 in order you prefer, cautious nice for bosses)

 

Level 3 To hit aura

5 sworn enemy (use this to pump damage up)

7 flaming sword

9 bonus vs will attacks

 

 

By his silvertide, 2 strong lay.on hands and drain attacks coupled with insane defenses makes taking him out hard. His endurance pool almost becomes his health pool

 

 

He works almost the same with 11 mig and 10 dex if you prefer

Edited September 13, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll

[pi2repsion]

If you are going for that more offensive paladin you posted, Elthalas, you really ought to pick up either Weapon Focus: Soldier or Weapon Focus: Knight.

 

The Soldier focus is more generally useful for the paladin you describe, using 1h+sh and 2h interchangeably, but the Knight focus might be more appropriate with the backstory depending on whether you see his father's background as being a feudal knight who joined the Kind Wayfarer's of perhaps, an ex-soldier, or something else entirely.

 

I did have fun writing up that asthmatic giant, though. If I ever do start a third playthrough of the game, perhaps it will be his time to shine.

[Ymarsakar]

You might want to take Strange mercy at an early opportunity. At low level the +24 endurance heal is more noticeable and appreciated. Plus if you find it totally lackluster at high levels you can re-spec and get something else.

 

If you are not going with a FoD alpha strike with an arquebus you might get better use out of the Sword and Shepherd talent which gets you a mini AoE heal when you use FoD. That would let you control the heal aspect instead of the more difficult to control heal from the on-kill effect.

 

If you bring Pellegrina along with you you'll have two auras, four lay on hands and other Paladin goodies.

 

The only issue I'm having with my Kind Wayfarer is identifying the Passionate responses. Benevolent is easy, avoiding Deceptive is easy. In my normal runs I end up with a few Cruel and Aggressive, in fact pretty much all over the board.

 

 

I'm guessing you have some of the dialogue tooltips turned off. Passionate is generally when an emotional reaction is the response to an event. It's very similar to aggressive, except the emphasis is on denying evil or bad behavior, vs trying to hurt/attack people.

 

I mostly go with honest, diplomatic, and benevolent. I turn the dialogue options off and on sometimes to check what Obsidian thinks is X and Y though.

 

That's a good tip about the Sword and Sh talent, I hadn't seen that one.

 

Wayfarer talents are useful early game buy they don't scale.

 

 

Another reason why Silver Tide is too powerful for the current balance mix. 3 per encounter level 4 aoe regen spells vs class talents. Since the paladin doesn't need another buff or rebalance, it's more convenient to isolate that one racial.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Torm51]

I agree. I really like Moon godlike aesthetically but they are OP.

[Nobear]

Talents: I don't know exactly the order yet, but more or less the talent would be:

1. Lay on Hands.

               

 and, in no order:

> Strange Mercy

 

> Zealous Focus.

 

> Sworn enemy

 

> Flames of Devotion

 

> Intense Flames

> Reviving  Exhortation.

 

> Two-Handed Style

> Liberating Exhortation

 

> Greater Lay on Hands.

 

> Inspiring Thriump.

 

> Deep Faith

 

> Sacred Immolation.

 

> Bloody Slaughter.

 

 

Maybe's: Scion of Flame, Hastening Exhortation, Vulnerable Attack, Interrupting Blows, Weapon & Shield Style, Righteous Soul, Bear's Fortitude.

 

Righteous Soul is extremely valuable for any paladin. I would definitely rank it higher than Deep Faith. Sure, Deep Faith is more widely applicable, but it's a drop in the bucket in comparison. The various types of mind control are widely considered the most annoying/difficult aspects of this game. While a minority of all fights feature them, and many of these can successfully be controlled by CCing the enemy before they can CC you, there will almost certainly be times where you will be very glad if your paladin does get mind controlled but only briefly and can come right back into the action.

 

If you are looking for alternate talents you could drop for Righteous Soul, if you do decide to drop Strange Mercy for Sword and Shepherd and be less concerned about landing the killing blow, keep in mind that you could also safely drop Bloody Slaughter. Bloody Slaughter is not a very big boost to DPS overall, since it applies to such a small endurance range, so is only really worth a talent point if you're trying to trigger on-kill effects. And if you decide not to focus on on-kill effects, you could drop Inspiring Triumph as well.

 

Of course, at this point, your play style would be significantly affected. In the end, especially since you're not playing PoTD, go whichever route you enjoy more. Cheers!

[Torm51]

I cannot not take Righteous Soul.  Like I hate it cause I always have to have it in a build.  It is too good.  It is like Ironwill in old school D and D...It makes your Paladin rock solid when it comes to Will CC.  He is already going to have a high will but on PoTD this seals the deal.  If you see a Will CC effect land a HIT on you after you get this it will be rare.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Torm51

[Teioh_White]

Yeah, Righteous Soul (and the crazy Devotion  passive)  was pretty much the entire reason I did a Pally play through of ToI/PotD/Ex. After so many play throughs of Eder getting charmed and letting the Huns through the front gate, it was really nice to have a tank that just largely shrugged off any Will save, and I could count on still standing there. (On that note, really wish Pallagina came with, say, level 2 in Devotions for +6 to saves, annoying how I have to be a Pally myself if I want the full Pally experience).

 

And also agree Silver Tide is OP. Especially if making a custom party, if you make the entire team Moon Godlikes, it pretty much removes the risk of losing a ToI play through do to poor planning and getting your back line eaten, or blanking out whatever nasty AoE a caster just did. I think for my next playthrough, it's going to have to go on 'too cheesy to use' list with things like Scrolls, Echo, Amplified Wave, and petrify.

[Ymarsakar]

Yeah, Righteous Soul (and the crazy Devotion  passive)  was pretty much the entire reason I did a Pally play through of ToI/PotD/Ex. After so many play throughs of Eder getting charmed and letting the Huns through the front gate, it was really nice to have a tank that just largely shrugged off any Will save, and I could count on still standing there. (On that note, really wish Pallagina came with, say, level 2 in Devotions for +6 to saves, annoying how I have to be a Pally myself if I want the full Pally experience).

 

And also agree Silver Tide is OP. Especially if making a custom party, if you make the entire team Moon Godlikes, it pretty much removes the risk of losing a ToI play through do to poor planning and getting your back line eaten, or blanking out whatever nasty AoE a caster just did. I think for my next playthrough, it's going to have to go on 'too cheesy to use' list with things like Scrolls, Echo, Amplified Wave, and petrify.

 

IE Mod allows Pallegina to get the conviction buff from disposition, customized for any 2 favored or disfavored. No order talents though, those have to be added manually.

 

The way I dealt with the mushrooms was to pull all the mobile adds off screen to Eder and then kill them. Then I would move to the first mushroom and attack it with spells and range (this was back when wizard had horrible spell range and the ranger was broken). The issue was generally that Eder would get mind controlled and then he would run up to the other 4 mushrooms and their adds, drawing them back in. That mushroom cave took a few reloads in the crit path dungeon.

 

For the fampyres and what not, I  alphaed them using mental paralysis and a lot of aquebuses on my casters. Getting hit by 1 blunderbluss +2 arquebuses and some spells, isn't good for their health given their deflection and reflexes were debuffed. It was pretty easy to see who they were trying to charm and pull that character back, thus essentially giving me more time as the fampyre sometimes got stuck in the swarm of undead and took some time to switch targets, and when it did, it sometimes didn't even use the charm any more.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Elthalas]

Strange Mercy might not be that good with your build as with your low DEX you will not get very many killing blows.  Maybe after you get FoD grab Sword and the Shepherd...or line up your FoD alphas for Strange Mercy.

 

 

You might want to take Strange mercy at an early opportunity. At low level the +24 endurance heal is more noticeable and appreciated. Plus if you find it totally lackluster at high levels you can re-spec and get something else.

 

If you are not going with a FoD alpha strike with an arquebus you might get better use out of the Sword and Shepherd talent which gets you a mini AoE heal when you use FoD. That would let you control the heal aspect instead of the more difficult to control heal from the on-kill effect.

 

If you bring Pellegrina along with you you'll have two auras, four lay on hands and other Paladin goodies.

 

The only issue I'm having with my Kind Wayfarer is identifying the Passionate responses. Benevolent is easy, avoiding Deceptive is easy. In my normal runs I end up with a few Cruel and Aggressive, in fact pretty much all over the board.

 

 

If you are going for that more offensive paladin you posted, Elthalas, you really ought to pick up either Weapon Focus: Soldier or Weapon Focus: Knight.

 

The Soldier focus is more generally useful for the paladin you describe, using 1h+sh and 2h interchangeably, but the Knight focus might be more appropriate with the backstory depending on whether you see his father's background as being a feudal knight who joined the Kind Wayfarer's of perhaps, an ex-soldier, or something else entirely.

 

I did have fun writing up that asthmatic giant, though. If I ever do start a third playthrough of the game, perhaps it will be his time to shine.

 

 

 

Talents: I don't know exactly the order yet, but more or less the talent would be:

1. Lay on Hands.

               

 and, in no order:

> Strange Mercy

 

> Zealous Focus.

 

> Sworn enemy

 

> Flames of Devotion

 

> Intense Flames

> Reviving  Exhortation.

 

> Two-Handed Style

> Liberating Exhortation

 

> Greater Lay on Hands.

 

> Inspiring Thriump.

 

> Deep Faith

 

> Sacred Immolation.

 

> Bloody Slaughter.

 

 

Maybe's: Scion of Flame, Hastening Exhortation, Vulnerable Attack, Interrupting Blows, Weapon & Shield Style, Righteous Soul, Bear's Fortitude.

 

Righteous Soul is extremely valuable for any paladin. I would definitely rank it higher than Deep Faith. Sure, Deep Faith is more widely applicable, but it's a drop in the bucket in comparison. The various types of mind control are widely considered the most annoying/difficult aspects of this game. While a minority of all fights feature them, and many of these can successfully be controlled by CCing the enemy before they can CC you, there will almost certainly be times where you will be very glad if your paladin does get mind controlled but only briefly and can come right back into the action.

 

If you are looking for alternate talents you could drop for Righteous Soul, if you do decide to drop Strange Mercy for Sword and Shepherd and be less concerned about landing the killing blow, keep in mind that you could also safely drop Bloody Slaughter. Bloody Slaughter is not a very big boost to DPS overall, since it applies to such a small endurance range, so is only really worth a talent point if you're trying to trigger on-kill effects. And if you decide not to focus on on-kill effects, you could drop Inspiring Triumph as well.

 

Of course, at this point, your play style would be significantly affected. In the end, especially since you're not playing PoTD, go whichever route you enjoy more. Cheers!

 

 

I think all you say makes a lot of sense; maybe trying to reach something (killing blows) I can't achieve very well it's a mistake, because it spread my abilities too thin for a not so great reward.

I'm going to reinforce the offensive capabilities, but not necesarily oriented toward the killing blows. Maybe going to take the Interrupting Blows talent to take advantage of my PER, as Elric Says, and some defensive measures to cover my weaknesses, like the righteous soul

 

So, the final setup is something like this:

 

1. Lay on Hands.

               

 and, again in no order:

 

> Two-Handed Style

> Zealous Focus

> Deep Faith

> Flames of Devotion

> Intense Flames

> Weapon Focus: Soldier

> Reviving  Exhortation

> Liberating Exhortation

> Greater Lay on Hands

> Sworn enemy

> Righteous Soul

> Sword and Shepherd

> Sacred Immolation

 

Maybe's: Scion of Flame, Vulnerable Attack, Interrupting Blows.

 

I'm not sure if Sword and Shepherd is worth it, and I've my doubts about the efficacy  of Vulnerable Attack/Interrupting Blows, but... well, we'll see.

I think it's not so bad offensive/defensive equilibrium, but probably could use some refinement to make the most of the offensive.

Also, maybe going for Pale Elf in the end But still thinking about it, because they explain very little about Pale Elf culture, so it's hard for me to RP a character whose culture I don't know. Even if he was adopted, it makes sense he knows something about his race.

 

And yes, I like the knight errand feel of the order. And also yes, two-handed combat was probably very different from what we think it was. I knew the videos and it always surprised me how agile you could be in a full plate. Ok, makes sense, because if you can't move you're not a very efficient combatant, but... well, it's hard to assimilite.

 

 

[Ymarsakar]

Interrupts just make one enemy waste like 20-50% of their time. It's not really an offensive skill, most of the interrupt you need is bundled up in perception along with the accuracy buffs. Interrupting blows is like a utility talent, except unlike the scion of flame stuff, it doesn't make you do more damage and it doesn't significantly decrease incoming damage either.

 

If you want to interrupt enemies, people with fast attack bows like the Sagani ranger or Wizard's firewall spell, now that's the interrupts.

 

Vulnerable attack is the bread and butter of most melee dps builds, with some exceptions. Weapon focus is another solid one early on for offense. For dual wielding paladin dps

 

Vulnerable attack > Focus/20% attack speed

For two handed weapons

15% damage > focus > Vulnerable attack

 

There's also some pale elfs living in the second city. And whatever your race is, sometimes npcs will comment on it if it is mentioned in their plot lines or arguments. Although Orlans tend to come up more on the negative side. One time the main character who is an Orlan, walked into a bar and asked what game the dart throwers were playing. And they replied "Orlan's Face" because the dartboard is basically the face of an orlan and they would throw knives at it, getting points depending on whether they hit the ear, nose, or eyes. So even if you don't know anything about pale elf culture, you might encounter some lore in game if you pick it.

 

Have fun with the combat tactics in Pillars, it's a good slice of the old school setup from way back. Reminds me a little bit of the xcom tactical difficulties, although very different world settings and physics.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Teioh_White]

I've always actually wondered about Vulnrable Attack, and that -20% speed is factored in. If it's just as it says, a straight you'll be hitting the mob 20% slower, it's a pretty poor talent in a lot of situations. From a pure damage perspective, you average hit will need to do less than 20 damage (including enchant buffs such as lash) to make it even break even. I'm not sure exactly how much lower your average hit would need to be justify the opportunity cost of losing an alternate Talent choice, as well. If that's how it operates, it's certainly not useless, but really only for for fast weapons, early game, or classes with very few multipliers.

 

Early game 2handers, for example, you're just doing 1.0, maybe 1.3 with a fine weapon+2hd style, and few accuracy buffs, so breaking that 20 damage threshold average will be rough. Late game, you'll have that number closer to 2.15, as well as buffed accuracy and often a level advantage over mobs, making Vulnrable attack actually lower your damage. That's also not factoring in the lower chance of per-hit things, like a rangers stunning blow, Tall Grass knockdown (with carnage fun times) or the frisky things the Soulbound weapons.

 

On the other hand, it does just say Attack Speed, and if it doesn't also apply the penalty to recovery frames, it'd change things greatly, making the talent weirdly better suited to a plate mail wearing 2 hander, whose got a massive recovery penalty compared to a fast weapon dual wielder in light armor. For both though, the talent would quickly move into must have range, as the recovery penalty is a much bigger part of the attack speed equation than the actual attack itself. I think it'd be really weird if it works this way, but it's the only way I see Vulnrable attack being a good talent choice for more than a few specific builds, or something taken early and later respec'd out of. (Though treating stuff that way always feels a little cheezy to me.)

 

Also on the note of not having a clue how Vuln. Attack works, what does it apply that -DR too? Would it also apply to say, a Fire Godlike Barbarian tank with Retaliatex2 on? If so, that'd be a lot of extra value from it.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Teioh_White

[Ymarsakar]

Retaliate does benefit from the DR bypass talent, although I'm not sure if it is just the melee one.

 

Attack speed is basically the same as -50 recovery = 30-33% attack speed, it delays the next attack. Dexterity affects the actual speed at which attacks are made. And I think that's the only one that does it. It may affect recovery as well.

 

Two handed swords don't benefit as much from DR penetration as faster weapons do.

 

Here's a quick test, doing some more. Identical paladins level 1, except one has a dex of 4 vs a dex of 18 using -50 recovery brigandine and maces vanilla. By the time the seventh attack of the dex 18 paladin had landed on the other, the dex 4 paladin had made 5 attacks. No interrupts were counted. 18+24=42% difference in action speed, for a difference of 7/5 attacks with only a few frames of difference in the last attack landing.

 

For morningstar two handed it's about the same 7.5/5 split in attack numbers. Now it should get interesting with vulnerable attack and various other stuff on...

 

15 attacks vs 10 attacks morning stars, 18 dex vs 4 dex + vulnerable on.

 

I got something like 7.5/5 the first time but it was a few frames off so I counted it up to 10 on the right side. 4 dex side interrupted 3 times, so that might be an issue as well affecting overall hits. Now we'll do the reverse with vulnerable attack on the 18 dex side. I'll bump up resolve on both and see if it'll stop the interrupts.

 

6.5/5

13/10

 

6.5/5 for mace/shield+vulnerable attack vs mace/shield.

 

Taking a different methodology single weapon attacks are 2.8 seconds vs 5 seconds.

 

Vulnerable on, it's about 3 seconds per attack vs 5 seconds.

 

Tentative conclusion is that -20% attack speed hurts people with higher dex or rate of fire builds. Now moving unto armor differences.

 

Naked 18 dex 4 attacks in 10 seconds (using a better method here by casting a spell on somebody and using that as a time stop watch, my old technique with cipher) using morningstar +vulnerable -20% attack speed. Almost exactly 12 attacks in 30 seconds.

 

Morningstar in 30 seconds, we got 13 attacks with 18 dex and naked. 8.33% difference in total attacks after 30s between using vulnerable and no vulnerable naked with two handed morning star.

 

4 dex 9.3 attacks every 30 seconds. With vulnerable on, it's about 8.4 That's a 8.7% difference.

 

-20% attack speed will probably cripple anybody using fast weapons though, or if their attack speed is buffed to 50%+ like the wizard's alacrity or via potions, while naked.

 

I changed the methodology on the last few experiments, so will have to redo the brigandine armor sets, although my tentative conclusion is that attack speed debuff/buff matters less if you are already at -50 recovery.

 

I also tested vulnerable attack with the fire retalation at 50% endurance, and it does penetrate through to people around you if you turn on that modal.

 

The dexterity or action speed, makes a much more accurate representation of how many attacks you can get per x time. Of course this doesn't factor in the arquebus and arbalest reload times, but dexterity affects reload times as well.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[KDubya]

I've always actually wondered about Vulnrable Attack, and that -20% speed is factored in. If it's just as it says, a straight you'll be hitting the mob 20% slower, it's a pretty poor talent in a lot of situations. From a pure damage perspective, you average hit will need to do less than 20 damage (including enchant buffs such as lash) to make it even break even. I'm not sure exactly how much lower your average hit would need to be justify the opportunity cost of losing an alternate Talent choice, as well. If that's how it operates, it's certainly not useless, but really only for for fast weapons, early game, or classes with very few multipliers.

 

Early game 2handers, for example, you're just doing 1.0, maybe 1.3 with a fine weapon+2hd style, and few accuracy buffs, so breaking that 20 damage threshold average will be rough. Late game, you'll have that number closer to 2.15, as well as buffed accuracy and often a level advantage over mobs, making Vulnrable attack actually lower your damage. That's also not factoring in the lower chance of per-hit things, like a rangers stunning blow, Tall Grass knockdown (with carnage fun times) or the frisky things the Soulbound weapons.

 

On the other hand, it does just say Attack Speed, and if it doesn't also apply the penalty to recovery frames, it'd change things greatly, making the talent weirdly better suited to a plate mail wearing 2 hander, whose got a massive recovery penalty compared to a fast weapon dual wielder in light armor. For both though, the talent would quickly move into must have range, as the recovery penalty is a much bigger part of the attack speed equation than the actual attack itself. I think it'd be really weird if it works this way, but it's the only way I see Vulnrable attack being a good talent choice for more than a few specific builds, or something taken early and later respec'd out of. (Though treating stuff that way always feels a little cheezy to me.)

 

Also on the note of not having a clue how Vuln. Attack works, what does it apply that -DR too? Would it also apply to say, a Fire Godlike Barbarian tank with Retaliatex2 on? If so, that'd be a lot of extra value from it.

 

 

For things like this I use my Fight Club to test out different builds.

 

Works best with a high level so you can higher higher level mercs. Also not recommended for Trial of Iron, best to save before hand and then revert back when you go back to your real game.

 

The combat is all conducted out of combat so there are some quirks. Your endurance will regen constantly so the only thing that matters is accumulated health loss. This has the side benefit of extending combat, a few crits or misses would make a difference when you are dealing with only 200 endurance but with 1500 or so health it tends to average out pretty well. Activated abilities won't be able to be used. All attacks from a Rogue will get sneak attack bonuses.

 

1.) Free up four character slots for mercs

 

2.) Hire two identical "Targets" these will stand there and get attacked. High con will give a larger health pool to test against. Monks might be better than Barbarians as their base deflection is higher so you can simulate more challenging enemies. By taking deflection talents, shield use and armor worn you can simulate various DR and deflection values.

 

3.) Hire your two test subjects. I like to keep everything the same except for what I want to test. If I want to test dual wield vs two hander I'd make identical guys that took only those different talents. If the two builds are wildly different you won't know where the difference came from.

 

4.) Have your test subjects attack their own target. It helps to set the speed to fast for this.

 

5.) Review the results, change another variable and go again.

 

Based on tests like this I've come to really like the DR penetration talent. Even with Estocs with their natural DR penetration the talent is better to have once the DR goes past 10 or so.

[Ymarsakar]

The only feasible situation I've heard where the DR penetration talent is bad is when the extra attack or so is worth whatever damage the talent would have penetrated. Usually that only applies to things like sabres, because their base attack is higher or exceptional/superb weapons. It's definitely more reliable and up front damage, as even a graze might do more damage depending on enemy dr and base attack dmg. Whereas an extra attack might just miss or graze. So it would be that extra graze plus whatever faster attacks for interrupts you needed earlier, against the extra damage from DR bypass.

 

With faster weapons and higher stacked attack speed buffs, it'll be more than 1 extra attack of course.

 

New stuff

 

4 DEX 8.5 over 30s vs 10 over 30s No ARMOR

 

18 DEX 12 over 30s vs 14 over 30s No Armor

 

It's Vulnerable attack on vs off.

 

15% difference in attack speed.

 

14.28% difference in attack speed for 18 dex no armor.

 

 

In this test with estocs, there wasn't much difference between high dex or low dex build. Still got a 14-15% difference in attack speed, as in difference of number of attacks over x time. Some of the numbers are a little bit fuzzy because they aren't exact and the timer sometimes ended after or just before an attack. And there's always that .1 or .2 of time difference for when the clock starts, I can't usually time it exactly to 30s

 

Second trial with no armor vulnerable attack off was 9 attacks over 30s no armor 4 dex vs 13 attacks over 30s no armor 18 dex.

 

I run the tests through a lot of variables just to see if there's some extraneous factors I'm not aware of affecting things, like the speed of estocs vs morningstars. These ones are probably more accurate because I've taken the interrupt issue out, by having a punching target up that doesn't hit back.

 

Overall, accounting for some percentage errors due to the number of attacks I might have miscounted, we had 8-9% difference and 14-15% difference, so the actual difference for 20% attack speed is probably closer to 10%, modified by the recovery of the armor a little, or maybe that's just statistical error. Now the extra fun begins for when stack attack speed up past 50% and more.

 

A great place to test things in combat is at an inn inside (so you can hire and rest) and then find a chokepoint, then aggro everything. That'll start the combat timer but if you have a bottleneck, you can just tank them while your other characters do tests on each other. Or as I prefer, on the inn residents.

 

Remember the opening sequence of Baldur's Gate 2 the Shadow of Amn? I was a little bit disappointed the Caed Nua dungeon didn't have something like that, except we would do the testing on the "subjects". Then again, there are alternatives.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Tennisgolfboll]

Can you sum up your findings in some short cliff notes

[Ymarsakar]

Which ones are you interested in Tennis?

[Tennisgolfboll]

The basics about how dex in armor effects attacks.

 

3 dex vs 18 dex with 50% recovery

And 3.dex vs 10 dex? 50% recovery armor again

What is the difference?

Edited September 15, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll

[Ymarsakar]

For the attributes, they seem very close to the listed stats.

 

4 dex vs 18 dex is a difference of 42% action speed. And the number of attacks in armor closely relates to that, as in you actually do get 40% more attacks. I think this is more noticeable with fast weapons vs slow two handed weapons because the animation is just faster and you just notice yourself getting more attacks in 30s. Whereas the same works with two handed weapons too, it's just sometimes hard to notice that 10%-20% difference most people get with balanced stat builds. Since most people usually don't run builds with min dexterity and then another guy with max dexterity, they're usually running 10 dex or 15 dex, something like that.

 

From previous tests using older builds like 1.06 and 1.4, action speed also affects the reload time on blunderbusses and such weapons, so it's like total frames over the sequence is reduced by the action speed.

 

I haven't tested with 10 dex substantially. 42% is the difference between 18 and 4, so the difference between 4 and 10 would be 6. About 18% action speed difference if I have that right. Or 10 vs 18 would be 8x3 or 24% action speed difference.

 

Generally might, perception, and dexterity all together multiply their effects and bonuses. So based on previous combat experience, if I had +30% attack damage multiplied by 10 attacks, it might be 13 dmg x 10=130 points of damage. Whereas if dex boosts the attacks to 12 over same time, that's 13x12=156 dmg.

 

But these are just tentative estimates, for in game results I think more testing with different builds is needed to see exactly how much difference it would make for various different offensive or defensive builds. Certain spells have very low recovery time frames, so people have noticed that wizards/druids/priests with high attack speed buffs can start spamming a lot of spells, which aren't even fast cast.

 

So it is as they listed it, 3 points of action speed per dexterity, up or down. There doesn't seem to be any exponential curves going on at higher or lower levels. I think that would normally depend on the weapon used, since the weapon speed may have a high limit and a low limit for attack rates. Speculating at the moment, but I think 18 dex probably almost entirely eliminates the debuff from the -50 recovery armor. Dexterity action speed affects all the frames of every action, including recovery it seems. Whereas the recovery just affects the attack speed, the delay between attacks. So dexterity affects spells, dual wielding, attacks more as it reduces the frames on each of those animations. Whereas for two handed swords or slower weapons, dexterity doesn't reduce the frames as much as the recovery portion is being reduced. That's because the slower weapons attack less, so they have less frames to be reduced. Well that's my explanation for why a high armor low dex two handed warrior doesn't get much dps malus.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Tennisgolfboll]

Ok good. Thanks for the clarification i misunderstood your findings before.

[Ymarsakar]

They were some raw data I put down as I was going to sleep and needed a record of it. If anyone needs to know something specific, they can always send me a message, running experiments can be fun. Assuming they don't want to know the methodology in order to duplicate the experiment (science).

[Teioh_White]

I think this is a great example of the tool tips being grossly insuffcient to give the player an accurate idea of what is actually happening with the numbers.