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Paladin Leader in 2.0

leader paladin build 2.0

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#1
Elthalas

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Hi!

I've a simple question; well, maybe not so simple to answer.

I want to play a Paladin, for RP reasons, but I want him to have high scores (min of 16) in the more "talky" stats: INT, PE and RE. I know that with 2.0  PE, being mainly offensive, doesn't synergize very well with the other two, that are oriented towards a tank-buffer character.

So my question is: what kind of viable (not broken) build can I make with this limitations? I'm not a powergamer, and I don't want to play with him in PotD or something like that, but I want something that 'works' and feels rewarding to play
I'm open to any kind of combat role: tank, off-tank, ranged damage...

Thank you!



#2
lameover

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Here you go.

Role: first-line tank & buffer

Order: Darkozzi Paladini, Shieldbearer of st. Elcga, Goldpact Knight - these are the best choices. Other two orders can play two, but they'll be a bit less efficient as their level 5 will be somewhat wasted.

Race: Anything tanky.

Stats (Moon Godlike, the Living Lands bonus included - lots of backgrounds are actually useful here, it's just that the living lands allow you to start with a brigandine armor and that's helpful):

M 18
C 17
D 4
P 3
I 18
R 18

The nature of Perception & Dexterity now is that once you begin to minimize one, you can easily minimise both - the damage is abysmal anyways. So, as we can do lots of good without attacking straightforwardly, we redirect all the points to better stats - Might for Healing, Con & Res for survival, Int for buff duration. That also makes us a very good speaker - a classical leader build which became much less common under 2.0 conditions.

Weapon of Choice: the standard early game tanking package - hatchet & kite shield. TBH, as your offensive potential is so abysmal, no point to switch to anything else.

Talents and ability choices:

1st level: Lay on Hands.

2nd level: Weapon and Shield style: the rather obvious choice but for this build the reflex bonus is also very important. The weakest spot of such stat distribution is the negative reflexes score - mages will crit you. But once you add up the bonuses from this talent and your Faith and Conviction (more so if you are the main char and can upgrade it by role-playing), the problem suddenly vanishes. Yeah, your reflexes won't be good, they will be mediocre, but with your life pool and healing mediocre is more than enough. And don't forget that your Will and Fortitude are awesome instead.

3rd level: Zealous Endurance or Zealous Focus: Endurance seems more logical but it's more about what your party needs. If you have lots of control (which is greatly amplified by focus), that might be the better protective choice overall. If not, you can go Endurance. It also gets better with lots of beefy characters (like barbs & monks).

4th level: Cautious Attack: it has been nerfed but even 8 deflection is good for you.

Next two levels depend on your order.

Darkozzi:

5th level: Liberating Exhortation. A great way to bail out your friends out of strong disables and, hopefully, when it runs out the enemies will be too dead for that to matter.

6th level: Inspired Liberation: the only flaw of the previous choice is that it matters only when you actually experience debuffs. And, against many foes, even if you remove those once, they can easily repeat them again. This upgrade removes this conditionality – even if you don't need to remove anything, you still give out the +10 accuracy bonus. And your damage dealer/crowd controller will be extremely happy to have that. The exhortation effect itself becomes just a cherry on the top.

St. Elcga:

5th level: Flames of Devotion: by itself is absolutely useless for you. However...

6th level: Shielding Flames: ...this upgrade turns them into actually useful “30 seconds of +10 Deflection for your party”. That's a nice buff.

Goldpact Knight:

5th level: Liberating Exhortation.

6th level: Bond of Duty. Not as universal as the Darkozzi upgrade – the conditionality doesn't go anywhere. But charming etc. foes are one of the most annoying ones in the game and more protection against them is always welcome.

Other two orders just take Exhortation and some tanky talent.

7th level: Reviving Exhortation or Coordinated Attacks. High deflection still doesn't protect you from tough choices.

8th level: Greater Lay on Hands: +50% to your heal efficiency. Allows to get through some really harsh focus.

9th level: Even more tough choices – same as for other paladins.

10th level: Superior Deflection.

11th level: Time for a bit more of traditional paladin suffering.

12th level: Deep Faith. Just a bit of overall survivability.

13th level: Sacred Immolation: yeah, it's a bit clumsy in our hands as that accuracy bonus hurts, but otherwise it's as strong as for the straight DD paladin. And it even heals too. So suddenly we've grown from a pure tank into more of a hybrid character. Which is great, I guess.

14th level: Scion of Flame. Snake's Reflexes can be fine too if your low saves annoy you, but I prefer to develop our mega-skill with this. You can even take this preemptively and push down the Deep Faith here.



#3
Torm51

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Dumping both Dex and Per would give you an absolutely terrible reflex defense.



#4
MunoValente

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Nothing wrong with raising PER, hitting things is good.  Hitting things helps defensively as well, lets you land your disengagement attacks, gives you interrupts.  As mentioned PER helps you reflex score as well, which will help if your dex is also low.  Makes the few bigger attacks you do take count, could start the battle off with a flames of devotion Arquebus attack. 

 

Not quite the same thing, but in a recent game I was using a low might passive tank chanter who had OK PER and I had her take Envenomed Strike, which worked pretty well.  Had her use measured restraint as her weapon and gave interrupting blows as well, so she'd have weak but fast accurate attacks that would interrupt or if I wanted, poison, and an extra engagement from the weapon.


Edited by MunoValente, 10 September 2015 - 02:37 PM.

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#5
lameover

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Dumping both Dex and Per would give you an absolutely terrible reflex defense.

2nd level: Weapon and Shield style: the rather obvious choice but for this build the reflex bonus is also very important. The weakest spot of such stat distribution is the negative reflexes score - mages will crit you. But once you add up the bonuses from this talent and your Faith and Conviction (more so if you are the main char and can upgrade it by role-playing), the problem suddenly vanishes. Yeah, your reflexes won't be good, they will be mediocre, but with your life pool and healing mediocre is more than enough. And don't forget that your Will and Fortitude are awesome instead.


Yep, i know that reflexes are bad. But we just can't dump MIG, like fighters or other tank-oriented classes.
This build is a good leader\tank-buffer build anyway, it's what OP asking for.

#6
Torm51

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Dumping both Dex and Per would give you an absolutely terrible reflex defense.

2nd level: Weapon and Shield style: the rather obvious choice but for this build the reflex bonus is also very important. The weakest spot of such stat distribution is the negative reflexes score - mages will crit you. But once you add up the bonuses from this talent and your Faith and Conviction (more so if you are the main char and can upgrade it by role-playing), the problem suddenly vanishes. Yeah, your reflexes won't be good, they will be mediocre, but with your life pool and healing mediocre is more than enough. And don't forget that your Will and Fortitude are awesome instead.


Yep, i know that reflexes are bad. But we just can't dump MIG, like fighters or other tank-oriented classes.
This build is a good leader\tank-buffer build anyway, it's what OP asking for.

 

I wouldn't dump Might either.  You cant now and he wants perception. I just don't think for a Paladin that dumping is a good deal anymore.  What hes asking for can be done but you will sacrifice in the Fort Department and Health/Endurance.  and Con plays a much bigger role now as you cant stack deflection.  You get hit more.



#7
jsaving

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I haven't seen any optimized paladin builds that maximize PER and RES at the same time.  The reason is that, on a paladin, PER mainly helps you deal damage while RES helps you tank.  The longer reason is that nearly every paladin wants to max might and intelligence, meaning you need to dump either DEX and PER (if a tank) or CON and RES (if a damage dealer). 

 

The good news is that the game is eminently winnable on normal or hard no matter what stats you choose.  So if you want to RP a good "talker," go ahead, you'll do just fine even though you won't be quite optimized.



#8
KDubya

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Go with a nice balanced build, there are less good reasons to do extreme min maxing, especially for a Paladin who benefits from everything.

 

I'd keep everything at 10, choose three to be at 15 and have 3 left over to add to whatever picks your fancy. I like 15 Might, 13 con, 10 dex, 10 per, 15 intellect and 15 resolve for a defensive minded Paladin.

 

For race pick whatever appeals to you as a role-player. The stat bonuses only come into play if you try for a maximum. The racial abilities are all useful in one way or another. I like Pale Elves for the extra DR versus fire and frost, Boreal Dwarves for the bonus versus two common enemy types (and for being Dwarves), Amaumau get extra defenses or another weapon slot, humans get stronger when damaged, even both types of Orlans have abilities that'd be useful.

 

The same for starting culture - pick what sounds good as a role-player. Or grab the one that starts with the Brigandine heavy armor. Getting 10 DR at the start makes a big difference and will carry you until you can get plate. The stat bonus only makes a difference if you are going for a maximum.

 

For the Paladin Order definitely take what ever one appeals to your sense of role-play as defined by their preferred personality traits and their negative. If you can't be cruel and aggressive don't be a Bleak Walker, if you need to get the most personal power at any cost and will commit atrocities to get it don't pick an Order that dislikes cruel. The talents available are not game changing and add a little flavor. I'd also recommend going without the dialogue help on so that you need to pick the response that you like instead of clicking on the "right" choice.


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#9
lameover

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I like 15 Might, 13 con, 10 dex, 10 per, 15 intellect and 15 resolve for a defensive minded Paladin.

15 int and res rarely play any role in conversations.
Better would be 16 might(sligtly better than 15) 10con(we don't loose much) and 17 res(for conversation).

#10
MunoValente

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If you do make a Paladin that raises INT and/or PER or even if you don't, you'd also want to put a lot points into Lore.  Lore has a lot of dialogue checks and scrolls benefit from PER and INT and plenty of them don't even care about your Might, like Paralyze.


Edited by MunoValente, 10 September 2015 - 06:27 PM.


#11
Ymarsakar

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Sounds like a combination dps/tank, the stat spread from the OPost.

 

With the high resolve and perception. The paladin can get away with having 14-15 in the tanking and offensive stats, minus dexterity or con. The one I use had a similar weapons setup to a defensive paladin, but took sworn enemy, flames, flame upgrade, two handed damage, zealous focus. Both share lay on hands at first level, so there's no difference in offensive or defensive paladin there. Both have two weapon slots, one with a two handed weapon or arquebus, the other with a weapon/shield combo for when deflection is needed. Since deflection is immediately improved once you switch, before recovery disappears.

 

So something like 15 might, 12 con, 8-6 dex, 15 per, 14 int, 16+ resolve might do it. Per and int can be further increased via selective equips. Those aren't the exact stat mix, just a general distribution that allows a paladin to do a little bit of defensive tanking and then doing some offensive tanking/dps when switching to two handed weapons that prone on crit and using flames or sworn to get more crits. Which also apply more damage.

 

Tanking in 2.0 has gotten back to the original military term. Meaning a slow moving bunch of armor plates with a big weapon on top it to threaten enemies with, but vulnerable to a bunch of flankers and infantry with penetrators without infantry support. It used to mean a meat shield, something that could deflect a lot of damage, but had little offensive abilities or threat on its own. Which, of course, is what a tank provides infantry, with a metal shield to break through defense hardpoints.


Edited by Ymarsakar, 10 September 2015 - 07:24 PM.

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#12
Elthalas

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Thank you all for your answers!
Very interesting perspectives...

I specially like Ymarsakar idea. My problem before was that I'd probably read too much information, and ideas, and builds, and I was starting to think that maxing (and, therefore, minimizing) stats was the only way to go when making an effective build; and that, mix with my obssesion for having as much dialogue options as I can, resulted in a loop where it was impossible to have all the stats I wanted.

But the idea of building a balanced character, that can tank but also make some damage, even if he's not the best at any of that, is something I like. I hate the idea of being a "pure tank" with 3 dex that sits there taking hits and boring himself to death, so something with options and possibilities sound great to me; but before this posts I was led to think that a mix of tank and some DD was impossible to achieve for a paladin.

So I was thinking in something like... 15 might, 10 con, 6 dex, 16 per, 15 int, 16 res, do you think it can work? I'm not sure if 10 con + 6 dex is enough to make someone semi-competent in hitting and surviving.

Also, two questions: for the Ymarsakar build.... do you go full plate and big shields? or something in the middle, so your speed doesn't fall to the sewers?
And, scion of flame works with flames of devotion? Its advisable to pick it when improving the offense of a Paladin?

Thank you all again!
It's been very helpful :)
 



#13
lameover

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You'd better raise either INT or RES up to 18. Paladins have got good accuracy at start. Then you can raise it by talents\items. You can raise any stat by items, but they could be accessed in early game only as random loot from hidden places.
Scion of flame works with Flames of Devotion, btw it doesn't worth a talent.

Now i think to make a balanced character as well.

Edited by lameover, 11 September 2015 - 06:12 AM.


#14
PIP-Clownboy

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I like 15 Might, 13 con, 10 dex, 10 per, 15 intellect and 15 resolve for a defensive minded Paladin.

15 int and res rarely play any role in conversations.
Better would be 16 might(sligtly better than 15) 10con(we don't loose much) and 17 res(for conversation).

 

 

You can get a +3 resolve ring pretty early so I'd say max at 16 resolve. I think there might be a like 1-2 20 resolve checks in the game but can easily get that with a rest/food bonus. 



#15
pi2repsion

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So, requirements are PE, IN, RE >= 16, paladin, roleplaying, not POTD, something that feels rewarding to play with stats that work for the build without being a mix-maxed stat monster.

 

How about a kind-hearted asthmatic giant, who was born in Aedyr, became a respected clergyman, and felt the call to join a martial holy order defending what he believed in? Not the strongest of giants, but a good friend and protector, a respected leader of men, who never let his frail health stop him from doing what he felt right.

 

Race: Coastal Aumaua (it would be strange to see an Island Aumaua from Aedyr, so Coastal it is. Coastal also has nice bonuses for staying on your feet.)

Origin: Aedyr

Background: Clergyman

Shieldbearers of St. Elcga. (The Aedyran order of holy warriors. +Diplomatic/Honest. - Aggressive/Cruel)

 

11 Might

8 Constitution

10 Dexterity

16 Perception

17 Intelligence

16 Resolve

 

Defense modifiers: -2 Fortitude, +12 Reflex, +26 Will.

 

...Sure, the Fortitude save is low, but what would you expect from a giant with asthma? And Faith & Conviction means the character is no worse off than non-paladins starting with +8 Fortitude. Still, it is something to shore up with equipment along the way, no doubt.

 

1h+shield user. Using the paladin-only buckler from Gilded Vale  for most of the game for +5 all defenses for himself and every nearby companion, and whatever 1h you prefer - from a game mechanics perspective, ideally one that either has +1 Engagement Limit or one that applies some sort of debuff when it hits; This giant isn't going to be doing much damage, but he is going to be hitting.

 

The following build focuses on giving you many abilities to support the party and save the day, but does not attempt to maximize deflection, because, while nice, it isn't strictly needed, and the paladin will have really high deflection even without taking things like Cautious Attack and Superior Deflection due high Resolve, Faith and Conviction, and wielding the paladin buckler that gives 8 (buckler) + 0-12 (quality) + 5 (herald effect from buckler) + 6 (Weapon and Shield Style) = 19-31 deflection. (Though one would probably want those talents anyhow playing POTD... but you are not playing POTD.)

 

 

1. Lay on Hands.

2. (Def) Weapon and Shield Style.

3. Zealous Endurance or Focus depending on party need. Endurance would be most thematic.

4. (Def) Hold the Line. (Yay, two engagement. And engagement is still valuable in 2.0, just not as important as it was previously.)

5. Flames of Devotion

6. (Cla) Shielding Flames.

7. Reviving or Liberating Exhortation.

8. (Def) Bear's Fortitude.

9. Reviving or Liberating Exhortation. (The one not taken at 7.)

10. (Cla) Greater Lay on Hands.

11. Hastening Exhortation. (It is only 3/rest, not /encounter, but it is +20% attack speed for 40.5s with 17int to an ally, and that's worth a lot in important fights).

12. (Cla) Deep Faith or (Uti) Scion of Flame.

13. Sacred Immolation.

14. (Cla) Deep Faith or Scion of Flame. (The one not taken at 12.)

 

(Hey, 20% extra damage on Sacred Immolation isn't too shabby. Worth a talent? Good question, but all the low hanging fruit has already been taken at that point unless you desperately want to maximize deflection.)


Edited by pi2repsion, 11 September 2015 - 09:43 AM.

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#16
Torm51

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So, requirements are PE, IN, RE >= 16, paladin, roleplaying, not POTD, something that feels rewarding to play without being a mix-maxed stat monster.

 

How about a kind-hearted asthmatic giant, who was born in Aedyr, became a respected clergyman, and felt the call to join a martial holy order defending what he believed in? Not the strongest of giants, but a good friend and protector, who never let his frail health stop him from doing what he felt right.

 

Race: Coastal Aumaua (it would be strange to see an Island Aumaua from Aedyr, so Coastal it is. Coastal also has nice bonuses for staying on your feet.)

Origin: Aedyr

Background: Clergyman

Shieldbearers of St. Elcga. (The Aedyran order of holy warriors. +Diplomatic/Honest. - Aggressive/Cruel)

 

11 Might

8 Constitution

10 Dexterity

16 Perception

17 Intelligence

16 Resolve

 

Defense modifiers: -2 Fortitude, +12 Reflex, +26 Will.

 

...Sure, the Fortitude save is low, but what would you expect from an giant with asthma? And Faith & Conviction means the character is no worse off than non-paladins starting with +8 Fortitude. Still, it is something to shore up with equipment along the way, no doubt.

 

1h+shield user. Using the paladin-only buckler from Gilded Vale  for most of the game for +5 all defenses for the himself and every nearby companion, and whatever 1h you prefer - from a game mechanics perspective, ideally one that either has +1 Engagement Limit or one that applies some sort of debuff when it hits; This giant isn't going to be doing much damage, but he is going to be hitting.

 

The following build focuses on giving you many abilities to support the party and save the day, but does not attempt to maximize deflection, because, while nice, it isn't strictly needed, and the paladin will have really high deflection even without taking things like Cautious Attack and Superior Deflection due high Resolve, Faith and Conviction, and wielding the paladin buckler that gives 8 (buckler) + 0-12 (quality) + 5 (herald effect from buckler) + 6 (Weapon and Shield Style) = 19-31 deflection. (Though one would probably want those talents anyhow playing POTD... but you are not playing POTD.)

 

 

 

1. Lay on Hands.

2. (Def) Weapon and Shield Style.

3. Zealous Endurance or Focus depending on party need. Endurance would be most thematic.

4. (Def) Hold the Line. (Yay, two engagement. And engagement is still valuable in 2.0, just not as important as it was previously.)

5. Flames of Devotion

6. (Cla) Shielding Flames.

7. Reviving or Liberating Exhortation.

8. (Def) Bear's Fortitude.

9. Reviving or Liberating Exhortation. (The one not taken at 7.)

10. (Cla) Greater Lay on Hands.

11. Hastening Exhortation. (It is only 3/rest, not /encounter, but it is +20% attack speed for 40.5s with 17int to an ally, and that's worth a lot in important fights).

12. (Cla) Deep Faith or (Uti) Scion of Flame.

13. Sacred Immolation.

14. (Cla) Deep Faith or Scion of Flame. (The one not taken at 12.)

I love the build other then 8 con.  This is a frontliner and with the deflection reductions across the board you are going to get hit a lot more since perception no longer effects deflection.  You can go with an 8 Con and be OK but you will be resting a lot.  Also when you go down Poison Alley (That's what I call the area east of Dyrford) where almost every mob you fight on the way has poison (attacks your Fort and does raw damage) which will crit you because of the lowish (Faith and Con no doubt helps) Fort.  Lastly, rogue npcs  use their raw Damage DoT all the time.  About halfway through the game they will be using it and you will be fighting a lot of rogues.  a lot.  More raw damage to your low health. 



#17
Torm51

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So, requirements are PE, IN, RE >= 16, paladin, roleplaying, not POTD, something that feels rewarding to play without being a mix-maxed stat monster.

 

How about a kind-hearted asthmatic giant, who was born in Aedyr, became a respected clergyman, and felt the call to join a martial holy order defending what he believed in? Not the strongest of giants, but a good friend and protector, who never let his frail health stop him from doing what he felt right.

 

Race: Coastal Aumaua (it would be strange to see an Island Aumaua from Aedyr, so Coastal it is. Coastal also has nice bonuses for staying on your feet.)

Origin: Aedyr

Background: Clergyman

Shieldbearers of St. Elcga. (The Aedyran order of holy warriors. +Diplomatic/Honest. - Aggressive/Cruel)

 

11 Might

8 Constitution

10 Dexterity

16 Perception

17 Intelligence

16 Resolve

 

Defense modifiers: -2 Fortitude, +12 Reflex, +26 Will.

 

...Sure, the Fortitude save is low, but what would you expect from an giant with asthma? And Faith & Conviction means the character is no worse off than non-paladins starting with +8 Fortitude. Still, it is something to shore up with equipment along the way, no doubt.

 

1h+shield user. Using the paladin-only buckler from Gilded Vale  for most of the game for +5 all defenses for the himself and every nearby companion, and whatever 1h you prefer - from a game mechanics perspective, ideally one that either has +1 Engagement Limit or one that applies some sort of debuff when it hits; This giant isn't going to be doing much damage, but he is going to be hitting.

 

The following build focuses on giving you many abilities to support the party and save the day, but does not attempt to maximize deflection, because, while nice, it isn't strictly needed, and the paladin will have really high deflection even without taking things like Cautious Attack and Superior Deflection due high Resolve, Faith and Conviction, and wielding the paladin buckler that gives 8 (buckler) + 0-12 (quality) + 5 (herald effect from buckler) + 6 (Weapon and Shield Style) = 19-31 deflection. (Though one would probably want those talents anyhow playing POTD... but you are not playing POTD.)

 

 

 

1. Lay on Hands.

2. (Def) Weapon and Shield Style.

3. Zealous Endurance or Focus depending on party need. Endurance would be most thematic.

4. (Def) Hold the Line. (Yay, two engagement. And engagement is still valuable in 2.0, just not as important as it was previously.)

5. Flames of Devotion

6. (Cla) Shielding Flames.

7. Reviving or Liberating Exhortation.

8. (Def) Bear's Fortitude.

9. Reviving or Liberating Exhortation. (The one not taken at 7.)

10. (Cla) Greater Lay on Hands.

11. Hastening Exhortation. (It is only 3/rest, not /encounter, but it is +20% attack speed for 40.5s with 17int to an ally, and that's worth a lot in important fights).

12. (Cla) Deep Faith or (Uti) Scion of Flame.

13. Sacred Immolation.

14. (Cla) Deep Faith or Scion of Flame. (The one not taken at 12.)

I love the build other then 8 con.  This is a frontliner and with the deflection reductions across the board you are going to get hit a lot more since perception no longer effects deflection.  You can go with an 8 Con and be OK but you will be resting a lot.  Also when you go down Poison Alley (That's what I call the area east of Dyrford) where almost every mob you fight on the way has poison (attacks your Fort and does raw damage) which will crit you because of the lowish (Faith and Con no doubt helps) Fort.  Lastly, rogue npcs  use their raw Damage DoT all the time.  About halfway through the game they will be using it and you will be fighting a lot of rogues.  a lot.  More raw damage to your low health. 


Edited by Torm51, 11 September 2015 - 08:33 AM.

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#18
Torm51

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Obviously if you go for the RP that you stated it would work for sure.



#19
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One more thing.  Am I the only one that takes Zealous Charge?  I know you miss out on the other 2 that are GREAT but I am finding that Charge gives your party great flexibility should things go wrong with your front line on difficulties like PoTD where there are A LOT of enemies and this could happen.  Granted if your front line holds its doing nothing but you always have a flexibility option of moving fast and repositioning should something go wrong.  It is especially good if you take 2 paladins as the other can take focus or endurance.  If you only take one paladin I can see the skip.



#20
KDubya

KDubya

    (10) Necromancer

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One more thing.  Am I the only one that takes Zealous Charge?  I know you miss out on the other 2 that are GREAT but I am finding that Charge gives your party great flexibility should things go wrong with your front line on difficulties like PoTD where there are A LOT of enemies and this could happen.  Granted if your front line holds its doing nothing but you always have a flexibility option of moving fast and repositioning should something go wrong.  It is especially good if you take 2 paladins as the other can take focus or endurance.  If you only take one paladin I can see the skip.

 

 

I have one game going with two Paladins, Eder, Sagani. Kana and Aloth. So four melee and a pet. All supported with melee type chants and two aura - the accuracy and the DR booster. Haven't really had cases where the frontline folds except when I tried the Ogres in the endless path when I was too low. Worst case someone does a bonehead move and runs after something shiny and eats a few disengagements, but the rest can cover. Also once I get four chants in the ten second petrify cone usually seals the deal.

 

Double paladins are just sick. For grins I should make a party with three Paladins and run all the auras.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: leader, paladin, build, 2.0

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