Role of fighter?

[Pelmaleon]

 

I edited in an answer to your edit. TLDR for my edit: You are theorycrafting for relatively easy encounters and discussing the merit of an ability called CRITICAL Defense in a situation where you never get crit, thus strawmanning my PotD theorycrafting.

Dude, start debuffing your opponents sometimes.

 

And you still didn't post a single number. That's not theorycrafting, that's theorybabbling.

 

 

Again, you are considering fights where debuffs will frequently work while I am theorycrafting for the toughest fights on PotD, aka the only fights that you need to or it is fun (imo) to minmax. It appears that you have serious reading comprehension issues. Here's a pro tip: Next time you retort someone's PotD anecdote, followed by their PotD theorycrafting, you should first ask yourself if you are also playing PotD or if your mind is predisposed towards theorycrafting for easier difficulties. If the latter is more apropos, then there's no need to respond in the first place. You could have saved us both a lot of time if you had just thought before your initial, emotional response, in which you were theorycrafting for lower difficulties while I was overtly theorycrafting for the highest.

[Brimsurfer]

Lol @ crazy long posts above, that say almost nothing.....

 

People are ignoring fighters offence and frontline CC abilities and they are comparing fighter's defence with pally. Its totally idiotic.

 

A fighter does what he does and a pally does what he does.

 

Paladins are slightly better at defence (although a fighter can hold more enemies, defender is still an awesome talent) and at supporting the team .........and fighters are better at offence and CC (Clear Out is one of the best CCs in the game if one knows how to use it. it can render 3 to 5 opponents prone.......so much for buffing the party or debuffing the enemies).....

 

(I can hold about 4 to 5 enemies with my fighter successfully even with a two handed weapon (no shield) while doing large critical damages, i don't know what these people are talking about.........i guess just learn to play the game, guys. AND USE THE CC ABILITIES FFS.)

Edited September 8, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Njall]

 

 

I edited in an answer to your edit. TLDR for my edit: You are theorycrafting for relatively easy encounters and discussing the merit of an ability called CRITICAL Defense in a situation where you never get crit, thus strawmanning my PotD theorycrafting.

 

Dude, start debuffing your opponents sometimes.

And you still didn't post a single number. That's not theorycrafting, that's theorybabbling.

Again, you are considering fights where debuffs will frequently work while I am theorycrafting for the toughest fights on PotD, aka the only fights that you need to or it is fun (imo) to minmax. It appears that you have serious reading comprehension issues. Here's a pro tip: Next time you retort someone's PotD anecdote, followed by their PotD theorycrafting, you should first ask yourself if you are also playing PotD or if your mind is predisposed towards theorycrafting for easier difficulties. If the latter is more apropos, then there's no need to respond in the first place. You could have saved us both a lot of time if you had just thought before your initial, emotional response, in which you were theorycrafting for lower difficulties while I was overtly theorycrafting for the highest.

More babbling.

 

PotD is like 10 to 25 points higher accuracy, IIRC. That's still a fair bit too low to crit a dedicated tank.

But please, do go on posting your non-anecdotes and carefully avoiding math.

Numbers please.

How much is Critical defense worth in one of your maths-defying playthroughts?

Numbers or shut up, please.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Njall

[Pelmaleon]

 

 

 

I edited in an answer to your edit. TLDR for my edit: You are theorycrafting for relatively easy encounters and discussing the merit of an ability called CRITICAL Defense in a situation where you never get crit, thus strawmanning my PotD theorycrafting.

Dude, start debuffing your opponents sometimes.

And you still didn't post a single number. That's not theorycrafting, that's theorybabbling.

Again, you are considering fights where debuffs will frequently work while I am theorycrafting for the toughest fights on PotD, aka the only fights that you need to or it is fun (imo) to minmax. It appears that you have serious reading comprehension issues. Here's a pro tip: Next time you retort someone's PotD anecdote, followed by their PotD theorycrafting, you should first ask yourself if you are also playing PotD or if your mind is predisposed towards theorycrafting for easier difficulties. If the latter is more apropos, then there's no need to respond in the first place. You could have saved us both a lot of time if you had just thought before your initial, emotional response, in which you were theorycrafting for lower difficulties while I was overtly theorycrafting for the highest.

More babbling.

 

PotD is like 10 to 25 points higher accuracy, IIRC. That's still a fair bit too low to crit a dedicated tank.

But please, do go on posting your non-anecdotes and carefully avoiding math.

Numbers please.

How much is Critical defense worth in one of your maths-defying playthroughts?

Numbers or shut up, please.

 

 

Lol you sound so mad. Though it's not particularly surprising, seeing as you minmax for lower difficulties to feed your ego while steamrolling weak enemies. You also basically just admitted that you lied about playing and beating PotD, seeing as you don't even know how much more accuracy enemies acquire.

 

Go read a book and stop embarrassing yourself by posting inane drivel online.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Pelmaleon

[Brimsurfer]

Lol still nobody talking about fighter's CC capabilities and better offence.....fighter's defence is exactly where it needs to be.

 

Why dont people just use cheats to beat the game? 

[Njall]

 

 

 

 

I edited in an answer to your edit. TLDR for my edit: You are theorycrafting for relatively easy encounters and discussing the merit of an ability called CRITICAL Defense in a situation where you never get crit, thus strawmanning my PotD theorycrafting.

 

Dude, start debuffing your opponents sometimes.

And you still didn't post a single number. That's not theorycrafting, that's theorybabbling.

Again, you are considering fights where debuffs will frequently work while I am theorycrafting for the toughest fights on PotD, aka the only fights that you need to or it is fun (imo) to minmax. It appears that you have serious reading comprehension issues. Here's a pro tip: Next time you retort someone's PotD anecdote, followed by their PotD theorycrafting, you should first ask yourself if you are also playing PotD or if your mind is predisposed towards theorycrafting for easier difficulties. If the latter is more apropos, then there's no need to respond in the first place. You could have saved us both a lot of time if you had just thought before your initial, emotional response, in which you were theorycrafting for lower difficulties while I was overtly theorycrafting for the highest.

More babbling.

PotD is like 10 to 25 points higher accuracy, IIRC. That's still a fair bit too low to crit a dedicated tank.

But please, do go on posting your non-anecdotes and carefully avoiding math.

Numbers please.

How much is Critical defense worth in one of your maths-defying playthroughts?

Numbers or shut up, please.

Lol you sound so mad. Though it's not particularly surprising, seeing as you minmax for lower difficulties to feed your ego while steamrolling weak enemies. You also basically just admitted that you lied about playing and beating PotD, seeing as you don't even know how much more accuracy enemies acquire.

 

Go read a book and stop embarrassing yourself by posting inane drivel online.

 

 

 

 

I edited in an answer to your edit. TLDR for my edit: You are theorycrafting for relatively easy encounters and discussing the merit of an ability called CRITICAL Defense in a situation where you never get crit, thus strawmanning my PotD theorycrafting.

 

Dude, start debuffing your opponents sometimes.

And you still didn't post a single number. That's not theorycrafting, that's theorybabbling.

Again, you are considering fights where debuffs will frequently work while I am theorycrafting for the toughest fights on PotD, aka the only fights that you need to or it is fun (imo) to minmax. It appears that you have serious reading comprehension issues. Here's a pro tip: Next time you retort someone's PotD anecdote, followed by their PotD theorycrafting, you should first ask yourself if you are also playing PotD or if your mind is predisposed towards theorycrafting for easier difficulties. If the latter is more apropos, then there's no need to respond in the first place. You could have saved us both a lot of time if you had just thought before your initial, emotional response, in which you were theorycrafting for lower difficulties while I was overtly theorycrafting for the highest.

More babbling.

PotD is like 10 to 25 points higher accuracy, IIRC. That's still a fair bit too low to crit a dedicated tank.

But please, do go on posting your non-anecdotes and carefully avoiding math.

Numbers please.

How much is Critical defense worth in one of your maths-defying playthroughts?

Numbers or shut up, please.

Lol you sound so mad. Though it's not particularly surprising, seeing as you minmax for lower difficulties to feed your ego while steamrolling weak enemies. You also basically just admitted that you lied about playing and beating PotD, seeing as you don't even know how much more accuracy enemies acquire.

 

Go read a book and stop embarrassing yourself by posting inane drivel online.

Yeah, sure, ' cause when I played it , like 2-3 months ago, I was so intent looking at the logs of every single fight in order to debunk your "high level theorycrafting" which skips actual math altogether.

 

Which I am still waiting for, btw. When does critical defense become mathematically equivalent to 5 defense? 8?

How much is PotD accuracy higher than Hard and Normal, let's hear that straight from you, sir?

 

No, because I mean, can your "high level theorycrafting" provide at least that very basic info?

 

Also, really, this entire discussion has been you screaming "fallacy!" at pretty much anythyng you didn't want to bother responding, ignoring any math people have posted and trying to discredit me by claiming I'm lying because I refused to post my pedigree instead.

Go on, let'see this supreme theorycrafting skills of your, or are you going to keep attacking me instead?

 

Numbers.

Post them.

 

I'll help you: even when Deflection < accuracy by 25 points, critical defense only amounts to 5 points of defense. Go on, feel free to prove how wrong I am.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Njall

[Darkpriest]

BTW, people should stop building quote walls... things get unreadable on mobile version.. with such walls of quotes....

[curryinahurry]

 

@ jsaving

 

Yes, that is what I and several others have been suggesting.  Disengagement attacks in the Beta test versions was very strong (as I stated - auto crit).  They were nerfed as the Beta went on into the release version.  I think we agree it would make sense to find some middle ground for that.  What KDubya suggested in one of his posts was to give a special boost in damage to fighters as part of the Defender Ability.  I would extend that bonus to a basic class ability and have Defender give a further boost to

 

@ Brimsurfer

 

If you don't see a point, why participate?  Others are having a rational, productive discussion. 

It stopped being productive when OP stopped paying attention to criticism to his baseless arguments.

 

I don't see a point in running this campaign to make fighters OP and so i will participate to resist this change.

 

Fighters are in good place now, they dont need any nerfs or buffs

 

 

Discussions evolve.  I'm not particularly concerned with the OP's rant as much as I am trying to get to the root of why people are complaining about the defender changes.  It's easy to claim whining, and certainly some people are doing just that.  But others have posted a legitimate problem that fighters have which I explained in earlier posts...that the fighter, as a class has no real hook, nothing that they can really call their own that makes the class as a concept come together.  What seems to be the root of this problem is that defender was nerfed which made the class less 'tanky'  but that is partially made up for by the multiple engagements fighters can amass.  The problem in post 2.0 is that disengagements are more common, and since the disengagement attack has been nerfed since its initial version during the backer beta,   the additional engagements have less value for the class.  The simple adjustment of giving fighters a class boost to disengagement would thus go a long way towards giving the class back it's identity as a 'lockdown' dealer of pain (loosely quoting Josh Sawyer).  Right now the fighter can't really lock enemies down, so this small adjustment restores the class pretty well.  If you then make that penalty double using Defender and add a possible status effect like hobbled (per Darkpriest, cheers) using Wary Defender, fighters start looking pretty awesome again in a tank role.

 

The other potential area identified as weak in the fighter talent progression is upper tier abilities/ talents.  The idea of weapon style mastery and talents are thus suggestions to give more offensive options to the class while keeping the playstyle consistent.

 

While I don't entirely agree with the OP, there has been enough grumbling for me to at least consider there might be a problem, and this seems to be the best path to a solution.  

Edited September 9, 2015 by curryinahurry

[Njall]

BTW, people should stop building quote walls... things get unreadable on mobile version.. with such walls of quotes....

You're right, sorry, it's just that I' m posting from mobile as well, adjusting the formatting and the quotes takes a fair bit of scrolling up...

[KDubya]

Lol still nobody talking about fighter's CC capabilities and better offence.....fighter's defence is exactly where it needs to be.

 

Why dont people just use cheats to beat the game? 

 

A fighter can take knockdown which gets two uses per encounter of a base 5 second prone. That's it. It is nice but it is only single target and only two uses per encounter. A monk can take stunning blows which gets two uses per encounter and a base 3 second stun. A wizard at level 9 can cast Slicken for an AoE knockdown at least four times per encounter.

 

Clear out gets you a cone knockdown once per rest and is available I think at level 9.

 

This is the extent of the super awesome fighter CC, a single target twice per encounter and a cone usable once per rest

 

 

 

 

For damage a Fighter can take weapon specialty for +15% damage and weapon mastery for +10% damage. This applies only to weapons in the same group. This cost one ability and one talent. The Fighter can also take Confident Aim which gets you +20% minimum damage and 20% graze>hit both of which only apply to melee. This is approximately equal to +13.5 % damage when accuracy = deflection, at higher levels of deflection the effective damage increases. All in for damage a Fighter gets +38.5% damage to melee weapons in his preferred weapon group for a cost of two abilities and a talent.

 

A Cipher starts with +20% damage buff to all weapons via Soul Whip, one talent takes this to +40%.

 

A Rogue can take Reckless Assault for +8 Accuracy, +20% damage and -8 deflection. Together this is effectively +37.8% damage and costs one ability

 

+8 accuracy is worth -

0-7 miss

8-42 graze

43-93 hit

93-100 crit

Unit damage is 0.35*0.5+0.5*1+0.08*1.5 = 0.795 compared to base 0.675 is an increase of 17.8% damage when base accuracy = deflection

 

A Monk can take swift strikes and lightning strikes getting him +25% attack speed and a +25% lightning lash. This cost one ability, one talent and one wound.

 

 

All three can get higher damage with a smaller investment than a Fighter. The Fighter is much more durable than a Rogue or a Cipher so the comparison is not apples to apples. But if you compare a max offensive Fighter with a defensive Rogue with weapon and shield style (to counteract the Reckless Assault) the unbuffed deflection is similar while the health and endurance are in the Fighter's favor but his damage is much lower due to sneak attacks.

 

A Fighter and a Monk are in the same league as far as durability and general tankiness, with the Monk pulling ahead with damage and CC.

 

A Fighter will out damage a Paladin.

 

No one is asking for a Fighter to be able to out tank a Paladin or out damage a Rogue. People are asking for some sort of buff to Defender in the form of better disengagement attacks or a knockdown effect on disengagement. Changing Clear Cut to be per encounter. Basically a few small changes would add flavor to a Fighter as well as functionality.

[Darkpriest]

 

BTW, people should stop building quote walls... things get unreadable on mobile version.. with such walls of quotes....

You're right, sorry, it's just that I' m posting from mobile as well, adjusting the formatting and the quotes takes a fair bit of scrolling up...

 

 

I prefer using @"name" solution myself if I am referring to someones text, unless it's like a short sentence or paragraph, like this one

[Brimsurfer]

It seems like people want Fighter class to be God Mode.

 

Anything less is unacceptable.

[Darkpriest]

Nah, i think he is good as it is, but, i would not mind adding applying KD effect on disengagement attacks if he is in the defender mode..right now a lot of NPCs disregard this engagement and some can just avoid it completely by teleporting. so unless you are blocking doorway or something similarly narrow, they will move around. Alternatively modify the sweep attack from per rest to per encounter.

[AndreaColombo]

I agree Clear Out could be per encounter to make it more competitive with other classes' high-level abilities.

 

Into the Fray would be pretty good if targets weren't so easily blocked by other enemies or party members. If that was fixed, the ability would be interesting again.

[KDubya]

It seems like people want Fighter class to be God Mode.

 

Anything less is unacceptable.

 

 

Drats!!!!!

 

If it wasn't for those darn kids we would have gotten away with it!

 

 

 

 

You got us, only god mode will make us happy. We should be thankful that Critical Defense doesn't make us get hit more (like Defender) instead of only being equivalent to 3 points of deflection.

[Elric Galad]

Woodend plains is a very difficult map.

 

For example, you can run into groups of something like 5 Pwgra and 4 Brimsurfers.

 

That's a very difficult fight because Brimsurfers, even if they don't have a lot of abilities, keep regenerating for the whole battle.

 

Sometimes it is better to just avoid messing with them.

[spardeous]

 

 

Oh the irony.

 

Edit: To respond to your edit: So you took into consideration only the situation where "if def>= acc" which just further proves my point that you didn't beat PotD, thus your minmax theorycrafting for lower difficulties (or weak, trivial mobs on PotD) is fairly ludicrous. And if you are attempting to debate my PotD theorycrafting against your non-PotD theorycrafting, then you really need to work on your reading comprehension. Imo it's a waste of time and life for you to minmax for lower difficulties because your theories and tactics won't be challenged enough. But hey, if you have fun steamrolling weak enemies with your virtually invincible party, then go you. That's not my style; I like a veritable challenge.

 

Just give it up, man - his numbers were accurate, he gave numerous examples to prove them. Even if your point were true about 'def>=acc', what self-respecting tank would call himself a tank if he's being outclassed regularly by normal mobs? There's like 2 or 3 mobs in THE ENTIRE GAME with accuracy better than my best tank(and only marginally so) - the only one I can even think of is the Adra Dragon. If you were making the point that Critical Defense is better taken as an offense-focused Fighter, then the greater point can be made that an offense-focused Monk outperforms Fighter on BOTH FRONTS. Even if there were a situation where Critical Defense vastly outperformed 3-4 points of Deflection, that situation would be the result of player ignorance(enemies piling on buffs/debuffs and player just standing there on auto-attack) rather than being a consequence of game balance.

 

To the person saying Fighter CC is good, good luck landing Knock Down on PoTD - it's vs Fortitude. My Eder has 73 accuracy wielding Tidefall and routinely misses with it. My Wizard with his 1st-level 4-per-encounter Slicken hits more enemies, with a higher accuracy(85), an easier contest(Reflex), and a better duration(Slicken scales off Int, Knock Down does not).

Edited September 9, 2015 by spardeous

[Pelmaleon]

 

 

 

Oh the irony.

 

Edit: To respond to your edit: So you took into consideration only the situation where "if def>= acc" which just further proves my point that you didn't beat PotD, thus your minmax theorycrafting for lower difficulties (or weak, trivial mobs on PotD) is fairly ludicrous. And if you are attempting to debate my PotD theorycrafting against your non-PotD theorycrafting, then you really need to work on your reading comprehension. Imo it's a waste of time and life for you to minmax for lower difficulties because your theories and tactics won't be challenged enough. But hey, if you have fun steamrolling weak enemies with your virtually invincible party, then go you. That's not my style; I like a veritable challenge.

 

Just give it up, man - his numbers were accurate, he gave numerous examples to prove them. Even if your point were true about 'def>=acc', what self-respecting tank would call himself a tank if he's being outclassed regularly by normal mobs? There's like 2 or 3 mobs in THE ENTIRE GAME with accuracy better than my best tank(and only marginally so) - the only one I can even think of is the Adra Dragon. If you were making the point that Critical Defense is better taken as an offense-focused Fighter, then the greater point can be made that an offense-focused Monk outperforms Fighter on BOTH FRONTS. Even if there were a situation where Critical Defense vastly outperformed 3-4 points of Deflection, that situation would be the result of player ignorance(enemies piling on buffs/debuffs and player just standing there on auto-attack) rather than being a consequence of game balance.

 

To the person saying Fighter CC is good, good luck landing Knock Down on PoTD - it's vs Fortitude. My Eder has 73 accuracy wielding Tidefall and routinely misses with it. My Wizard with his 1st-level 4-per-encounter Slicken hits more enemies, with a higher accuracy(85), an easier contest(Reflex), and a better duration(Slicken scales off Int, Knock Down does not).

 

 

Another non-PotD theorycrafter endeavoring to retort my PotD theorycrafting. You kids really need to work on your reading comprehension.

[Judicator]

The fighter doesn't need that much buffing tbh. I'm running a 2h fighter right now and he's doing fine. He's already got high deflection, health, and accuracy score, so the base is solid. He just needs a few more interesting abilities, like pre-nerf defender, armored grace, and confident aim. Add disengagement bonuses to defender and remove the deflection penalty, add some kind of offensive modal for dps fighters, maybe beef up the specilization talents, like add +10% hit to crit for specilization and another 10% for mastery.

 

Overall it's a solid class, it just needs some extra oomph.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Judicator

[spardeous]

"Another non-PotD theorycrafter endeavoring to retort my PotD theorycrafting. You kids really need to work on your reading comprehension."

To relieve your concerns that I am not playing it on PoTD difficulty, I've included a picture of this toaster.


I hope that helps.

Edited September 9, 2015 by spardeous

[Brimsurfer]

^ I love this toaster pic.....

[Pelmaleon]

Only 3 Shades on your toaster? The second floor of the first temple dungeon on PotD has at least 5, all with accuracy greater than my tank's deflection.

[Brimsurfer]

I guess people really need to learn to play a fighter.............

 

Asking for God Mode is not the solution.

[curryinahurry]

 

To the person saying Fighter CC is good, good luck landing Knock Down on PoTD - it's vs Fortitude. My Eder has 73 accuracy wielding Tidefall and routinely misses with it. My Wizard with his 1st-level 4-per-encounter Slicken hits more enemies, with a higher accuracy(85), an easier contest(Reflex), and a better duration(Slicken scales off Int, Knock Down does not).

 

 

You need to Buff with Durance/ Priest.  My 9th level dps fighter is routinely at 100 and even Eder is in the high 80s with that + 20 buff.  This is one of the problems with the fighter discussion, is without knowing how characters have been built/ equipped, it's difficult to understand where the complaints are coming from.  Personally, I think knockdown is currently on of the best fighter abilities along with Confident Aim...the fact that you get it at level one says a lot about the issues with the class.

[spardeous]

 

 

To the person saying Fighter CC is good, good luck landing Knock Down on PoTD - it's vs Fortitude. My Eder has 73 accuracy wielding Tidefall and routinely misses with it. My Wizard with his 1st-level 4-per-encounter Slicken hits more enemies, with a higher accuracy(85), an easier contest(Reflex), and a better duration(Slicken scales off Int, Knock Down does not).

 

 

You need to Buff with Durance/ Priest.  My 9th level dps fighter is routinely at 100 and even Eder is in the high 80s with that + 20 buff.  This is one of the problems with the fighter discussion, is without knowing how characters have been built/ equipped, it's difficult to understand where the complaints are coming from.  Personally, I think knockdown is currently on of the best fighter abilities along with Confident Aim...the fact that you get it at level one says a lot about the issues with the class.

 

I've landed Knock Down on the Adra Dragon when Eder is fully buffed, but that's entirely besides the point. It's not about what can be done buffed - my Wizard can land Slicken against anything most of the time without a single buff. Knock Down w/ Eder? Not so much. You'd think a class ability would be a bit stronger than an entry level spell.