White Privilege ?

[BruceVC]

 

 

The thing is that some of us don't subscribe to the school of cultural relativism and know that there are views that are inherently superior to others. People wallowing in contempt while doing nothing to improve their condition is very unproductive.  

 

Sure, but lets be fair here. You are a far more intelligent and confident person than most of the black people who suffered under Apartheid ....despite the fact you have also had tough experiences you came out stronger in many ways and that worked for you. So I get your personal view of not having much sympathy because if you can do it you believe others can...and in most cases that would be true but not in this case ....you need to accept you are Cuban....Cubans are not Africans

 

What matters is ideology not just conditions, there have been some studies pointing out that middle class values lead inner city kids to success whilst the ones who embrace ghetto culture grow up into a life of crime. Generally speaking, smart  people are rare and not really a measure of the general population but First world general populations have more information available to them than Third World. But that has no bearing on the subject of will and morals, you can work towards making your life better while being a decent person without being a Rhodes scholar. It is what a lot of people do and who are unfairly paired with the worst examples of their ethnicity because some people have the misguided notion that other people's choices is somehow their fault and responsibility.

 

They are not children and they know right from wrong and there is a difference between a thief who draws the line at a moral relative and the ones who have no limits. Those things have nothing to do with culture.

 

 

 

 

So you accepted it because someone went "muh feelz".

I have to be honest I would have thought you would be one of the people who understood my post and reasoning?

 

I do understand it. I just think it's bull. I know white privilege is a thing. I just don't care because acknowledging it, or not acknowledging it, makes absolutely no difference. The questions you originally posed still weren't answered - what does it mean for him that you acknowledged it? He feels a little better because someone who was dealt a good hand in life acknowledged him while he was dealt a **** hand. He was already dealt that **** hand, however, so acknowledging doesn't change that. Playing your cards in a way to help people with **** hands dealt to them or to give new hands being dealt a better chance of being good, that's meaningful. The fact that the hand you were dealt was good due to no control of your own is pointless to dwell upon. You claim you're already doing a lot to try to make it a better place for less fortunate people, to educate people about racism, etc. so what does this change for you, going forward? Are you going to help more than you already did? What does this change for the man who got you to acknowedge it, going forward? Are you going to help him, specifically? Why and how does it matter? Why is your white advantage constantly under scrutiny while it's their black disadvantage we need to be taking a closer look at?

 

The world would be a much better place if people pointing fingers and going "this person has an advantage I don't have, let's attack them" and started pointing fingers and going "this person has a disadvantage I don't have, let's help them" - more people would be helped, and less people would be polarized against those trying to help. Have you never stopped to wonder why so many people are now against those who talk about "social justice"? It's because they constantly focus on and attack people for **** that doesn't matter. So you've accepted your white privilege - so what?

 

Here's a way to look at it - I've lived with mental disorders for my entire life. Products of my formative environment, who I was born to, how my bodychemistry works. People who don't have to deal with depression, chemical imbalance, social anxiety etc. have a massive advantage over me. I could spend my time bitching at people to acknowledge they have it better than me and their problems don't matter as much as mine, but how does that help anyone? Instead, I try to talk to people who deal with the same thing and help them and raise awareness by pointing out my disadvantage instead of their advantage. Because the fact that someone I talk to is healthy doesn't change anything.

 

 

Guys thanks for the feedback, I haven't explained it properly and the reality is you wouldn't understand what I am saying unless you were part of something like Apartheid and I am glad neither of you has been

 

Its not about guilt for me, its about an acceptance of something that exists in South African society that white people just need to recognize. But I won't be putting pressure on anyone I know. This is something you do on your own for yourself

[teknoman2]

 

So you accepted it because someone went "muh feelz".

I have to be honest I would have thought you would be one of the people who understood my post and reasoning?

 

I do understand it. I just think it's bull. I know white privilege is a thing. I just don't care because acknowledging it, or not acknowledging it, makes absolutely no difference. The questions you originally posed still weren't answered - what does it mean for him that you acknowledged it? He feels a little better because someone who was dealt a good hand in life acknowledged him while he was dealt a **** hand. He was already dealt that **** hand, however, so acknowledging doesn't change that. Playing your cards in a way to help people with **** hands dealt to them or to give new hands being dealt a better chance of being good, that's meaningful. The fact that the hand you were dealt was good due to no control of your own is pointless to dwell upon. You claim you're already doing a lot to try to make it a better place for less fortunate people, to educate people about racism, etc. so what does this change for you, going forward? Are you going to help more than you already did? What does this change for the man who got you to acknowedge it, going forward? Are you going to help him, specifically? Why and how does it matter? Why is your white advantage constantly under scrutiny while it's their black disadvantage we need to be taking a closer look at?

 

The world would be a much better place if people pointing fingers and going "this person has an advantage I don't have, let's attack them" and started pointing fingers and going "this person has a disadvantage I don't have, let's help them" - more people would be helped, and less people would be polarized against those trying to help. Have you never stopped to wonder why so many people are now against those who talk about "social justice"? It's because they constantly focus on and attack people for **** that doesn't matter. So you've accepted your white privilege - so what?

 

Here's a way to look at it - I've lived with mental disorders for my entire life. Products of my formative environment, who I was born to, how my bodychemistry works. People who don't have to deal with depression, chemical imbalance, social anxiety etc. have a massive advantage over me. I could spend my time bitching at people to acknowledge they have it better than me and their problems don't matter as much as mine, but how does that help anyone? Instead, I try to talk to people who deal with the same thing and help them and raise awareness by pointing out my disadvantage instead of their advantage. Because the fact that someone I talk to is healthy doesn't change anything.

 

like i said "I dont want a donkey of my own, i want the neighbour's donkey to die". with that kind of thinking instead of pushing/pulling people up, you just keep everyone down... and when stupid ideas like this are becoming popular, the average person with a working brain feels compelled to join the opposite side

[Volourn]

"you have rebuilt yourselves to an economic powerhouse ....its very impressive and is really testimony to the caliber and strength of German culture

 

People don't seem to want to recognize this but I will. That is why I got so annoyed when the Greeks and others were blaming the Germans for expecting Greece to pay back its loans

 

Your country had to do so much more and succeeded. I would be very proud to be German"

 

Germany had quite a bit of help. The US (and others) forgave a lot of its debt. Germany did not do it on its own.  Germany is one of the most evil countries in the world.

[HoonDing]

"Germany is one of the most evil countries in the world."

 

I concur.

[BruceVC]

"you have rebuilt yourselves to an economic powerhouse ....its very impressive and is really testimony to the caliber and strength of German culture

 

People don't seem to want to recognize this but I will. That is why I got so annoyed when the Greeks and others were blaming the Germans for expecting Greece to pay back its loans

 

Your country had to do so much more and succeeded. I would be very proud to be German"

 

Germany had quite a bit of help. The US (and others) forgave a lot of its debt. Germany did not do it on its own.  Germany is one of the most evil countries in the world.

Volo you sound like some radical feminist who never forgets the past  ....we forgive countries and move on from past mistakes. Do you dislike Italy for Mussolini ?

[Volourn]

I don't hate Germany. Pointing out facts isn't hate. And, Italy gave me pasta so they're kewl.

[BruceVC]

I don't hate Germany. Pointing out facts isn't hate. And, Italy gave me pasta so they're kewl.

But surly you don't still think Germany is evil ?

[Volourn]

The way they are dealing with the Greece issue is nazish in style. Not that Greece is handling it will either. Shame all around.

[obyknven]

I think this girl is Nazi/Racist and must be arrested for such hateful speech...

http://youtu.be/Y8Q0MMHwx4k

[Bartimaeus]

snip

 

I've read a tiny - very tiny - amount of literature on the subject, and the "don't attack the privileged, but try and motivate them (as well as everyone else) to get involved in better understanding and working towards improving the lives of those who belong to unprivileged social categories" seems to be the general motto of those are more reasonable about the subject (i.e. not usually the more extremist teenagers and young adults you find on twitter and tumblr and such). It's my belief, though, that people, regardless of their station (or lack thereof) in life, are generally too absorbed in their own lives in order for such movements to ever truly make progress*. Most regular people are too busy working for their own lives and the lives of their loved ones and close friends, too much so to care about the intricacies of others' lives, particularly when it's concerning what seems to be semi-abstract social categorization and labeling. Throw in the people who claim to be "working for" those unprivileged groups but are really more just attacking what they consider to be privileged groups - particularly those who don't subscribe to their theory of certain categories of people being privileged and others being unprivileged - and you're bound for some equal anger and pushback. Such is life...and the polarized societies we live in.

 

e: *Because it doesn't matter whether I belong to privileged groups or not: I still have things goals I need to work towards to and things I need to attend to and get done just like everyone else. Life can feel tough - as well as good - regardless of how objectively good or bad any given person's life we're evaluating is, which means most of us are usually more concerned with working on improving our lives rather than others we feel little connection to. I think it's a perfectly justified attitude, but it is (probably) unfortunate for those born in the future who will be dealt a poor hand in life...if there is no concentrated effort on the part of all - and I do mean all, from those on the very bottom to those at the very top - members of society to improve things. Again, such is life...and how life has, quite frankly, always been.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

The way they are dealing with the Greece issue is nazish in style. Not that Greece is handling it will either. Shame all around.

 Volo if there was one thing I had hoped you had learnt from me is lets not make excuses for others ineptitude ....lets" see the wood for trees "

 

Greece borrowed the money and Greece needs to pay it back....any other point just seems like some irrelevant venting at other countries ?

[BruceVC]

 

snip

 

I've read a tiny - very tiny - amount of literature on the subject, and the "don't attack the privileged, but try and motivate them (as well as everyone else) to get involved in better understanding and working towards improving the lives of those who belong to unprivileged social categories" seems to be the general motto of those are more reasonable about the subject (i.e. not usually the more extremist teenagers and young adults you find on twitter and tumblr and such). It's my belief, though, that people, regardless of their station (or lack thereof) in life, are generally too absorbed in their own lives in order for such movements to ever truly make progress. Most regular people are too busy working for their own lives and the lives of their loved ones and close friends, too much so to care about the intricacies of others' lives, particularly when it's concerning what seems to be semi-abstract social categorization and labeling. Throw in the people who claim to be "working for" those unprivileged groups but are really more just attacking what they consider to be privileged groups - particularly those who don't subscribe to their theory of certain categories being privileged and others being unprivileged - and you're bound for some equal anger and pushback. Such is life...and the polarized societies we live in.

 

Barti you post is confusing ? Can you not just make your point simply...like ....me 

 

You see, no issues understanding me 

[Bartimaeus]

Barti you post is confusing ? Can you not just make your point simply...like ....me 

 

You see, no issues understanding me 

My point, I guess, was that I'm trying to see both sides of the argument, and that the situation/issue seems terribly complex and nuanced...and it's unfortunate that all of us...or at least most of us...live in polarized societies where it's (increasingly?) difficult for people to consider the perspectives of those on the other side of the wall, and that issues such as these aren't likely to be resolved any time soon and/or with any semblance of effectiveness as a consequence of that.

 

I edited my previous post some, in case that helps further explain my point of view any.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

 

Barti you post is confusing ? Can you not just make your point simply...like ....me 

 

You see, no issues understanding me 

My point, I guess, was that I'm trying to see both sides of the argument, and that the situation/issue seems terribly complex and nuanced...and it's unfortunate that all of us...or at least most of us...live in polarized societies where it's (increasingly?) difficult for people to consider the perspectives of those on the other side of the wall, and that issues such as these aren't likely to be resolved any time soon and/or with any semblance of effectiveness as a consequence of that.

 

I edited my previous post some, in case that helps further explain my point of view any.

 

 

Now that makes sense, I get that 100 % and its interesting

 

How would you say you live in a polarized society ..who are you polarized from ? 

[Bartimaeus]

I'll speak for the U.S., since that's where I currently reside: most everything seems highly polarized here in general U.S. society. Democrat vs. Republican, pro-choice vs. pro-life, pro-same-sex marriage vs. the opposite, pro-multiculturism vs. anti-multiculturism, pro-Israel vs. anti-Israel, etc. You get a wider variety of opinions on these issues in forums like these, but in general society, it feels like everyone is so polarized about most everything. It's tiring and depressing, particularly when you consider the fact that it doesn't have to be this way. *shrug*

[BruceVC]

I'll speak for the U.S., since that's where I currently reside: most everything seems highly polarized here in general U.S. society. Democrat vs. Republican, pro-choice vs. pro-life, pro-same-sex marriage vs. the opposite, pro-multiculturism vs. anti-multiculturism, pro-Israel vs. anti-Israel, etc. You get a wider variety of opinions on these issues in forums like these, but in general society, it feels like everyone is so polarized about most everything. It's tiring and depressing, particularly when you consider the fact that it doesn't have to be this way. *shrug*

 That's an interesting observation, I wonder how widespread that is? It may just be where you live...lets see what other US forum members think ?

[Bartimaeus]

This is no doubt at least a little ironic, but I don't feel like I really need others' affirmations to confirm what seems to be patent to me, and what seems obvious if you pay even an ancillary amount of attention to our media empires (hey, another thing people are polarized about: corporations and capitalism in general, ), and the fact that most normal people still seem to be buying into the idea that there's only two (worthwhile?) sides for any given issue. Other perspectives would be great, too, but it'd be very hard to convince me of the opposite with just words...just as I'm sure anyone of the opposite bent from me will likely not be convinced by just my words, either.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

This is no doubt at least a little ironic, but I don't feel like I really need others' affirmations to confirm what seems to be patent to me, and what seems obvious if you pay even an ancillary amount of attention to our media empires (hey, another thing people are polarized about: corporations and capitalism in general, ), and the fact that most people still seem to be buying into the idea that there's only two (worthwhile?) sides for any given issue. Other perspectives would be great, too, but it'd be very hard to convince me of the opposite with just words...just as I'm sure anyone of the opposite bent from me will likely not be convinced by just my words, either.

Ah my young friend you are misunderstanding the reality in the USA and seeing something that is just an aspect as the big picture

 

You are confusing Internet debates and US politics as a reflection of the society. Ask anyone else on these forums from the USA if they think the place they live is polarized?

 

I have never found that on my numerous trips to the USA ...but ask me what I think of the general level of Internet debates about lets say SJ issues and I will say " unhelpful, generalized, condescending, intransigent, bitter ...and polarized " 

[Bartimaeus]

That's funny, because, as I already said, I have the opposite opinions in regards to both the actual U.S. as well as online discussions. Of course, you would know better having visited the U.S. versus someone who actually lives there.

[kgambit]

Ah my young friend you are misunderstanding the reality in the USA and seeing something that is just an aspect as the big picture

 

Ask anyone else on these forums from the USA if they think the place they live is polarized?

 

Barti does live here after all and you don't, so I am more inclined to accept his first hand perspective than yours.  Or at the very least to accept his viewpoint as being uniquely his.   Your response (which is pretty dismissive if you want to know the truth) fails to recognize the possibility (actually likelihood would be more apt) that the circles you both engage in would have entirely different demographics that would make the internal dynamics substantially different and result in complete polar opposites in viewpoint.     

 

I would not even attempt to answer you unless you define what you mean by "the place they live"?  Are you talking about your immediate neighborhood?  your city?  county? state? or the country as a whole?  or perhaps your circle of school friends?   or all of them? 

 

Edit:  And it seems that I got ninja'ed.  lol

Edited July 23, 2015 by kgambit

[teknoman2]

 

The way they are dealing with the Greece issue is nazish in style. Not that Greece is handling it will either. Shame all around.

 Volo if there was one thing I had hoped you had learnt from me is lets not make excuses for others ineptitude ....lets" see the wood for trees "

 

Greece borrowed the money and Greece needs to pay it back....any other point just seems like some irrelevant venting at other countries ?

 

the whole point of how Germany handles the thing with Greece, is saving several german companies (like siemens) that will have serious problems if the greek government had their way with them and finally allowed the investigation about corruption, bribery and even fraud against the state to proceed. the 2 parties that governed the last 40 years were obviously the recipients of the bribery so they protected them (btw while they were still in power they sold out a state owned bank for next to nothing with the term that their 100+ million debts would be erased). think how bad for the german economy it would be for the stock prices of some of its biggest industries to drop after a scandal (btw Soible -or however his name is spelled, the german finance minister- is a major stock holder in many of them and is even the CEO of the belgian company that was supposed to handle the greek public property that they asked as collateral -luckilly that was prevented). so they do everything to keep the greek government tied behind loans and deals to keep these companies safe and wealthy, while Soible is trying to steal the greek public property for himself on the side.

 

but we are going OT here

[Bartimaeus]

 

Barti does live here after all and you don't, so I am more inclined to accept his first hand perspective than yours.  Or at the very least to accept his viewpoint as being uniquely his.   Your response (which is pretty dismissive if you want to know the truth) fails to recognize the possibility (actually likelihood would be more apt) that the circles you both engage in would have entirely different demographics that would make the internal dynamics substantially different and result in complete polar opposites in viewpoint.     

 

I would not even attempt to answer you unless you define what you mean by "the place they live"?  Are you talking about your immediate neighborhood?  your city?  county? state? or the country as a whole?  or perhaps your circle of school friends?   or all of them? 

 

Edit:  And it seems that I got ninja'ed.  lol

 

 

Thanks for supporting my post, at the very least. I didn't like posting that, because it seemed very dismissive of Bruce's perspective - which wasn't my intention - but the fact remained that he was directly contradicting me (and on multiple points) without providing any actual sort of logical counterpoint or evidence while saying I was wrong and that he knew better.

 

C'mon, Bruce: didn't we just have a discussion not too long ago about condescension?

Edited July 23, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

That's funny, because, as I already said, I have the opposite opinions in regards to both the actual U.S. as well as online discussions. Of course, you would know better having visited the U.S. versus someone who actually lives there.

 

 

 

Ah my young friend you are misunderstanding the reality in the USA and seeing something that is just an aspect as the big picture

 

Ask anyone else on these forums from the USA if they think the place they live is polarized?

 

Barti does live here after all and you don't, so I am more inclined to accept his first hand perspective than yours.  Or at the very least to accept his viewpoint as being uniquely his.   Your response (which is pretty dismissive if you want to know the truth) fails to recognize the possibility (actually likelihood would be more apt) that the circles you both engage in would have entirely different demographics that would make the internal dynamics substantially different and result in complete polar opposites in viewpoint.     

 

I would not even attempt to answer you unless you define what you mean by "the place they live"?  Are you talking about your immediate neighborhood?  your city?  county? state? or the country as a whole?  or perhaps your circle of school friends?   or all of them? 

 

Edit:  And it seems that I got ninja'ed.  lol

 

Yes since you guys suggested it appears I do know more about American society than you guys if you are seriously suggesting that US society is polarized 

 

Why do I have to point out the obvious? The type of polarization you guys seem to have an issue with is just a sign of an intelligent and robust society where people actually want to debate issues and are passionate 

 

I'm sorry you guys have an issue with free speech ....but its important to many Americans 

Edited July 23, 2015 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

 

Barti does live here after all and you don't, so I am more inclined to accept his first hand perspective than yours.  Or at the very least to accept his viewpoint as being uniquely his.   Your response (which is pretty dismissive if you want to know the truth) fails to recognize the possibility (actually likelihood would be more apt) that the circles you both engage in would have entirely different demographics that would make the internal dynamics substantially different and result in complete polar opposites in viewpoint.     

 

I would not even attempt to answer you unless you define what you mean by "the place they live"?  Are you talking about your immediate neighborhood?  your city?  county? state? or the country as a whole?  or perhaps your circle of school friends?   or all of them? 

 

Edit:  And it seems that I got ninja'ed.  lol

 

 

Thanks for supporting my post, at the very least. I didn't like posting that, because it seemed very dismissive of Bruce's perspective - which wasn't my intention - but the fact remained that he was directly contradicting me (and on multiple points) without providing any actual sort of logical counterpoint or evidence while saying I was wrong and that he knew better.

 

C'mon, Bruce: didn't we just have a discussion not too long ago about condescension?

 

 No it was nasty as you were directly disagreeing with me which many would say is you polarizing the debate...why not just agree with me? 

Edited July 23, 2015 by BruceVC

[Bartimaeus]

 

You're a top-notch troll when you want to be one, Bruce. Other times, like now, not so much.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Bartimaeus