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POE: too dark, too light, or just right?  

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  1. 1. Is the setting for POE too dark (like Game of Thrones), too light (like a Disney movie), or just right?

    • Too dark
      7
    • Too light
      24
    • Just right
      83


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And then there are Dyrford ... that are communities that don't suffer as much from previously mentioned crises

 

 

Actually, at the time of the game not one single healthy child has been born in Dyrford for years.

 

(One reason why it's not as outwardly screwed up as Gilded Vale may be that everyone has just completely given up hope and accepted their fate, unlike Gilded Vale where the occasional healthy birth can be attributed to Berath and Raedric's zealotry.)

Edited by Infinitron
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I fully grant it isn't at the Game of Thrones level of gratuity, where there is violence and rape every 10 minutes.  That being said, I stopped reading Game of Thrones after book 3 or 4, because that is really what it amounts to.  There are tons of RR Martin memes which make fun of how it is that he loves to kill and torture everyone, especially the "likable characters".  I got sick of having to follow 15 characters, some of which weren't even presented in the previous book, only to have 3 others killed off and 3 new ones introduced. 

 

That's just it, for me.  I don't want a depressing game.  I want a game where if I want to play a hero, which I do in my RPGs, that I can do so and actually feel like it's worthwhile.  I don't want to try to rescue and help people, only to have the game almost endlessly present me with scenarios where I actually CAN'T accomplish that.  I'm not going to give spoilers, but, very early on, you had the ability to help someone avoid a very sad, tragic outcome- except, the game made it clear to you that you actually weren't doing anything.  In fact, you would have to lie to that person, to make them "feel better".  Then there was a rescue mission- where, as far as I am aware, there is literally no way to rescue that individual, no matter how quickly you act, that you don't rest a single time, and that you have plenty of "speaking ability" to try to sway people's decisions (or, magic, to do so).  You rescue some little girl, only to find out that she is shell-shocked, had to do and experience all sorts of vile things, and she is probably going to be permanently damaged goods.  Man, I'm so happy I got to her in time...

 

There were plenty of other quests very similar to that, where there really was no "happy ending" option.  I can appreciate doing that occasionally, that is "courageous" for the writers to do.  That being said, when it is continous, and there really is no "best option", that just sucks.  Why do I want to "do good", if it really turns out that does little? 

 

I got it, that they subject matter they were dealing with for this installment was "heavy" and that because of the recently transpired events, it was "tense" and "violent".  That being said, I'm definitely not buying POE 2 (or whatever they call it) until I know more about the setting.  I didn't play the Witcher for 2 reasons: I don't feel like going through a click-fest and trying to learn "combinations" like in Mortal Combat or a Capcom game, and I don't have any desire to play a game that is depressing.  I didn't play DA2, because, frankly, DA1 didn't impress me and it looked like they just reduced DA2 to a "hack'n'slash", which doesn't appeal to me in any way. 

 

I play only 1 type of game: RPGs.  And, when I play RPGs, I want to help people and "make the world/city/region better".  If POE2 is just more, "grimdark (light)", no thanks.  If it has dark elements, light elements, and walks that nice middle ground?  Sure thing, boss.  Incentivize me to play.  Give me a good/great story, with a variety of options to arrive at the end. 

 

POE did all of that, except, for me, it is too dark, and doesn't incentivize me to play.  So, I played through it 1 time, and part of another, and got bored.  Now, I'm not inclined to buy the next title, without knowing more about the atmosphere and tone.  To put this in perspective, since leaving POE, I have replayed: BG1 (3 times), BG2 (almost 2x), Arcanum (1.5x), ME 1-3 (1x), F:NV (1x), Shadowrun (4x), KOTOR 2 (1x), Neverwinter Nights 2 (2x).  The next Shadowrun that comes out?  I'll buy it for sure.  The next ME?  Maybe.  The new Fallout?  Maybe- it was made by Bethesda.   

Edited by Michael_Galt

"1 is 1"

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 Then there was a rescue mission- where, as far as I am aware, there is literally no way to rescue that individual, no matter how quickly you act, that you don't rest a single time, and that you have plenty of "speaking ability" to try to sway people's decisions (or, magic, to do so).  

 

If you're talking about Blood Legacy then that's not true.

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@Michael_Galt IOW you like clean straight-up power fantasies. Nothing wrong with that. I used to like them a lot when I was younger too, but they get old. I don't really care for grimdark for the sake of grimdark -- for my taste, the Witchers tilt a bit too far in that direction on occasion although not all the time -- but I do strongly prefer shades-of-grey stories where good intentions don't guarantee good outcomes, villains have understandable motivations, and endings are never entirely happy.

 

As for Pillars, I don't find it depressing at all. Melancholy, perhaps.

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 Then there was a rescue mission- where, as far as I am aware, there is literally no way to rescue that individual, no matter how quickly you act, that you don't rest a single time, and that you have plenty of "speaking ability" to try to sway people's decisions (or, magic, to do so).  

 

If you're talking about Blood Legacy then that's not true.

 

 

Yeah, as in Blood Legacy and Defiance Bay missions (there is several) that include rescuing a person there is possibility to rescue them. Also in White March you are able to rescue people from the burning building, you also can rescue the man in Raedric's Keep, child, treasure hunters and spy in Twin Elms. I can't think any other quests where you go to rescue someone and I can't think single quest where there isn't option to rescue individual that you go to rescue.

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...and, about that sad very early mission you're talking about...

 

 

...if you complete the game with certain choices, you will solve her problem as well. 

 

Personally I thought that was a neat bit of storytelling there: it communicates how massive and hopeless Waidwen's Legacy is. When I finished the game the first time, that very first quest popped up in my mind -- "Finally, I was able to really help her." It takes something really big and awful and brings it down to the personal, human scale.

 

(It's a shame there wasn't more stuff like that there actually IMO -- a lot of it was communicated with pretty lazy infodumps.)

 

 

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In resonse to Michael Galt:

 

As I see it, it's fundementally a question of player agency - Janet Murray (a PhD in English Lit and currently teaches in Interaction Design) defines PA as “the satisfying power to take meaningful action and see the results of our decisions and choices.

 

The Mass Effect 3 ending is a pretty perfect text book example of what happens, when you subvert player agency.  While the series as taken as a whole if very responsive to your input and give you 'uplifting' results to decisive choices.

 

PoE however, tries much like Torment succeeded in, to illustrate that your personal observations are conditional (and conditioned) and the consequences of choices may therefore unfold drastically different from your expectations, simply because you were basing your decisions on subjective truths, not always your own. Now of course, this may appear to hurt player agency, as this thread is a fine illustration of. But I would argue that is instead enriches it, if you actually give it a chance. As many have pointed out, often the outcome is actually heartwarming/uplifting, but only when the whole comes together and not just because of you. It tries therefore, in a sense, to give the setting (NPCs etc) agency as well, rather than just the player.

 

Something I was sorely missing from the genre in general. 

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Then there was a rescue mission- where, as far as I am aware, there is literally no way to rescue that individual, no matter how quickly you act, that you don't rest a single time, and that you have plenty of "speaking ability" to try to sway people's decisions (or, magic, to do so).

 

If you're talking about Blood Legacy then that's not true.

 

 

 

 

 

Then there was a rescue mission- where, as far as I am aware, there is literally no way to rescue that individual, no matter how quickly you act, that you don't rest a single time, and that you have plenty of "speaking ability" to try to sway people's decisions (or, magic, to do so).

 

If you're talking about Blood Legacy then that's not true.

 

 

Yeah, as in Blood Legacy and Defiance Bay missions (there is several) that include rescuing a person there is possibility to rescue them. Also in White March you are able to rescue people from the burning building, you also can rescue the man in Raedric's Keep, child, treasure hunters and spy in Twin Elms. I can't think any other quests where you go to rescue someone and I can't think single quest where there isn't option to rescue individual that you go to rescue.

 

Well, then, I guess I just didn't do it right, because, I literally rushed in, didn't rest, burned through a ton of potions, and was really limping along when I finally got to the "final segment".  And, when I played it, it provided me with no means to be successful (or, at least, that was the end result).  I referenced the Defiance Bay mission (with the little girl, though maybe there were others) as well.  I'm simply stating that it really didn't do a good job of "supporting" a "heroic" gameplay approach.  I played as a paladin (the judicious, negotiator ones), and while I understand that the "lore" is different, I played him as the type that is trying to reduce bloodshed, bring justice, and help those that he can.  In the end, I didn't really feel like I had done a very satisfying job of that.

 

In that one specific area in Defiance Bay, I "returned things that had been stolen".  Ok, great, except for the whole fact that...

 

even though I managed to do that, no matter what faction I support, the whole city will be sent into riots and the equivalent of civil war, so does it REALLY matter that I "saved" that district, when everything is going to burn shortly thereafter?

 

 

Without going into great detail, in the endgame, I chose the option that "restored things to how they were" or "were supposed to be".  So, I did the "good thing".  That being said, the game ends immediately after that.  And even the epilogue that they gave, pretty much cheapened my accomplishment.  I wasn't expecting a "now everything is supercalifragilistic", but, I was hoping for a little more than, "and problems continue, with this decision causing more confusion and violence though there is now a little more hope and happiness".  At least, that is what I remember the epilogue saying.

 

Again, speaking from a personal perspective, I couldn't be satisfied playing POE.  It didn't feel like I was ever really helping anyone or accomplishing anything lasting that was good. 

"1 is 1"

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I voted "just right" because I wasn't bothered by the dark atmosphere, but I also liked your OP because I agree with you the game is gritty and dark, very serious, and there's little recognition for your achievements. The watcher is a subtle hero (or antihero?) and the world is also subtly being destroyed, but people in this world is unaware of this, trapped in their own depressing and miserable war-driven lives.

 

Btw, Game of Thrones is mature and realist, but not dark and gritty at all. Even with the recurrent deaths, every chapter feels pretty heroic to me, and humour is always present, unlike in PoE.

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For me even Dragon Age: Origins felt too grimdark. You often get the choice of saving one or the other bad person and will be spit on by them in the end anyway. Everyone (alive) is cruel, egoistic and I tired of it very quickly.

 

In PoE there are a loot of good people in bad circumstances. You can't always save them, but you can always help at least in some way. It felt pretty nice, because it added realism and you still got the feeling of being a nice person.

 

Perhaps the game could use more humour, but I personally prefer more serious tone rather than forced humour and wacky characters with no substance. PoE has a very nice atmosphere and I would have hated to see it ruined.

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Btw, Game of Thrones is mature and realist, but not dark and gritty at all.

 

> not dark and gritty at all

> graphic torture of POV character described in great detail, 214 instances of rape (somebody actually counted!), child murder, pretty much everybody is either an **** or dead

 

u wot m8

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Yeah it's pretty much the definition of 'grimdark fantasy'... One defintion by Adam Roberts states it as: "the standard way of referring to fantasies that turn their backs on the more uplifting, Pre-Raphaelite visions of idealized medievaliana, and instead stress how nasty, brutish, short and, er, dark life back then 'really' was"

 

And by that definition, PoE certainly has grimdark elements. And GoT certainly is :)

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I'm kinda with Michael_Galt, but at the same time, I'm not sure I can't cast a vote. I feel the game is too dark for me to vote that it's just right, yet not dark enough for me to vote "too dark".

 

When PoE was announced, I actually expected to be more of a throwback to Baldur's Gate, (where it's setting was atypical and cliché, it knew it has been done to death and had fun with it. Fortunately, Divinity: Original Sin granted my wish), mainly because I was kinda sick of this trend of everything being dark and gritty. And that's coming from a guy who loves Planescape Torment.

 

As much as I love The Witcher series, there are time where I find it hard to play because sometimes, they overplay the grey and grey morality. In The Witcher 3, it seems every single "good" option is going to screw you over to the point where I don't care anymore. Planescape Torment succeeded because these "Cruel to be Kind" moments were properly spaced and there was moments where good actions had good consequences. That you could be a hero in spite of the grim world (another reason why I hated KOTOR2, but I won't say more about that game).

 

I admit, I haven't got far in the game (mostly because of a lack of time and that I got so many games to play), but Gilded Vale and Raedric's Hold already left a sour taste in the mouth. My biggest problem is that EVERY SINGLE quest so far is ambiguous, meaning that none of them give any feeling of accomplishment and ends up feeling like chores. I don't know if it gets better later in the game, but I hope so.

 

And I admit that I cheated and looked ahead a bit with the companion quests, but I was utterly dissapointed to find out that the companion quest were so, for a lack of a better word, pointless. There's no rewards, no change in character and in some case, no character developpement either. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't mind if some character quests turned out to be pointless, but not al of them. There's a fine line between being realistic and nihilistic.

 

That said, the grim setting is balanced by a fair amount of black comedy and at least there are some likeable characters that don't simply exist to be screwed over. I still think that the grim-and-gritty style is overused (when was the last time we've seen an high fantasy played completely straight?), but this game is a step in the right direction in term of balance. It actually uses it's grim-and-gritty tone to tell a story as oposed to put copious amounts of gore, sex, nihilism and pretentiousness (not necessarely in that order).

 

And I'll also add that I haven't seen thw White March expansion at all, so I have no idea what happens there.

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Btw, Game of Thrones is mature and realist, but not dark and gritty at all.

 

> not dark and gritty at all

> graphic torture of POV character described in great detail, 214 instances of rape (somebody actually counted!), child murder, pretty much everybody is either an **** or dead

 

u wot m8

 

 

Maybe this is just a problem of what we consider "gritty and dark" to be. To me, a gritty and dark world is a miserable, scary, hopeless and too serious world: places are depressing, people are depressing, life is sad, there's no place to humour, etc. In this sense, PoE is very dark and gritty imo. Game of thrones doesn't feel depressing to me, at all: gore, murder and rape are just elements of realism, especially if we talk about the middle ages, but don't make a story depressing unless the point of the story is how miserable is everyone due to rape and murder, which is not the case in GoT. 

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Yeah, some other people have hit on the same points as me- it's more, the sense of not really having made much of a positive impact.  Not much humor.  Again, referencing back to my time in the military, almost 10 years, 4 of which were deployed.  I don't care how tense things are, how bad things get, how much violence there is, people always try to find a way to enjoy themselves, to laugh, to make jokes.  Those are basic COPING mechanisms.  If you can't find a way to enjoy yourself or to "lighten the mood", ESPECIALLY in difficult times, you'll drown in despair. 

 

Think of the traditional symbol for theater: a smiling/laughing face and a crying/sad face.  There is tragedy, but there is also always comedy. 

 

I will freely admit, that I didn't have any of the "funny" NPCs in my party (the scholar, druid, or fighter).  The chanter just seemed useless to me, and frankly kind of irritated me, as did the druid.  So, as a result, literally never had them with me.  I sent them on all sorts of stronghold quests.  Eider, I just didn't see a need for.  I played as a paladin, and took Peregrina, and so felt like we did a good enough job on the front line without the justification for yet another "fighter-type". So, I had the crazy priest (who I continuously wondered if I would have to kill because he was going to turn on me and attack me, like he loved to threaten), the too-serious paladin, my emo mage, and my mopey cipher (who I tried to avoid talking to). 

 

So, as a result, maybe that made the game seem even more oppressive than it already was, because I literally didn't have any particularly positive character in my party.  I was always trying to "manage" them, so they wouldn't fall apart on me. But, that goes back to the writers.  I feel they did a pretty terrible job with the NPCs.  Did they have interesting stories?  Sure.  But, did I actually like or enjoy any of them?  No, not really.  I felt like I was running around with a bunch of basket-cases.  Literally, Peregrina and I were the only definitively sane ones in the bunch.  And, that was kinda depressing. 

 

Again, my other options?  A crude, vulgar, violent druid?  A bookish scholar that never shuts up and is loud?  I don't know enough about the ranger or Eider to talk about them, though I have heard people consistently say that they were the "most likable".  So, maybe I screwed up in not taking them. But, to be frank, I didn't like pretext for the ranger, that I would then need to search out someone I had literally zero interest in finding, and Eider simply wasn't necessary for me. 

 

I just feel like there was much too much emphasis on "a serious, deep, morally ambiguous" story.  I feel like there should have been more humor, more options to really "do good things" (and be rewarded for that). 

"1 is 1"

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Maybe this is just a problem of what we consider "gritty and dark" to be. To me, a gritty and dark world is a miserable, scary, hopeless and too serious world: places are depressing, people are depressing, life is sad, there's no place to humour, etc. 

 

 

...Book five was all of those things.

 

Incidentally, that's the book where darkness-induced audience apathy kicked in.

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Michael_Galt, first of all, Pillars of Eternity is still first and foremost a game. Its setting feels more realistic than Forgotten Realms, because Forgotten Realms is filled with fantasy clichés, silliness and strict division of good and evil, with only neutral characters being actually really interesting (I mean this as a rule to which there are exceptions) I also think it's more realistic than, say, Game of Thrones or The Witcher, which are filled with grittiness and darkness for the sake of it. However, that I believe the game is more realistic than those two does not make it realistic - as I have mentioned at the beginning, it's still a game. It has a script, written by scriptwriters, which is written to achieve some goal and have some sort of effect on its audience. Strict realism is out of the picture, and artistic vision (woooooooo, daaark ghost of aaartiiistic visioooooon!) always takes precedence. It's a shame this is taking away from your experience with the game, but I don't know of another which would have its world and its lore presented quite like this. And I always like when I see something new.

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I really don't agree about that definition of the FR at all.  There is every alignment possible, and all are valid.  Good isn't greater than evil, nor is neutrality- that's the whole point.  Thay is full of "evil".  You aren't going to find any paladins of Helm or Ilmater there.  Amn isn't really a "good-aligned" nation.  It is, by and large, neutral.  The Cowled Wizards don't care if you are casting death magic or resurrecting your slain friend, you must follow the rules and have a permit to cast magic.  There is legal slavery.  There is a temple to Tempus right next to the temple of Helm.  The home of the elves?  That would probably be defined as "lawful good".  So, those are three different "nations" with very different definitions of "good and evil".  Just like you can go to Saudia Arabia, the Netherlands, and China.  These countries all have very different concepts of what is good, and how government should work. 

 

Additionally, I would say it isn't "cliched".  It's "traditional".  LotR is pretty much what started it all and FR followed.  If you ask almost anyone that is into the fantasy genre what go them hooked, they will probably answer with one of three things: LotR, Forgotten Realms, or Conan.  For me, I actually DON'T LIKE LotR.  I find it extremely boring.  I love the FR.  I love Conan. (this is talking about the "older generations"- I'm sure that people now might say GoT, Harry Potter, Mistborn, etc)

 

If anything, FR is more like LotR than anything else.  In reality, FR is much more diverse.  It doesn't suppose that all men are naturally aligned, nor elves or dwarves.  They aren't nearly as homogeneous in the FR.  Do most people that live in the country prefer certain things that people in the city don't?  That doesn't make either of their behaviors or preferences "cliched".  It just means that that is representative of those groups.  To have "traditional" "high fantasy" isn't cliched.  It's just to continue with something already established. 

 

I would LOVE to see something genuinely new.  POE is in the lines of Shadowrun and Arcanum.  All of them have dwarves, elves, orcs, etc.  All of them basically interpret them the same, with a little bit of variation.  I would LOVE to see something that actually departs from that, which is genuinely original.  None of those races, or obvious copies of them.  Come up with a new "monster manual". 

 

I really want: Shadowrun fights Arcanum.  Give me conflicts between magic and technology.  Give me elemental races that naturally hate technology.  Give me cyborgs and androids that want to crush those irrational and unpredictable elements of nature.  Give me magical races that want to secretly or openly use their abilities but can't (the equivalent of shapeshifters, vampires, werewolves, golems, etc).  Golem vs android, fight!  One is a magical, "unliving" (in the sense of breathing, relying on sex for procreation) race, and the other is a completely artificial lifeform that is made of technology.  Maybe some strange "niche shadow culture" of golem/android mixes.  Golems or androids that began experimenting with crossing their construction between magical and technological means.  Humans that favor magic for religious reasons.  Humans that fear/hate both, because they are threatening with their powers.  No "world saving", but "power shifting".  Magical beings gain more freedom in society, technological races exert more control, etc, etc. 

 

If anything, POE is very unoriginal.  Still using the very same races from LotR and FR.  Sure, it came up with a new "magical system".  Have you read Brian Sanderson?  Almost every single book he writes has a different, and interesting, "magical system".  Still waiting on the Mistborn games...  POE is just a low magic, moderately steampunk setting with a new magical system that draws heavy influence from FR. 

Edited by Michael_Galt
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So, first of all, Forgotten Realms might very well be the best fantasy setting in existence, but I have only been exposed to it trough videogames. When I played the original Baldur's Gate, every single book concerning lore felt incredibly boring to me, and after some time I just gave up. I grew bored with the lore presented in Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Nights as well - Forgotten Realms feels, to me, like by far the least interesting fantasy setting that I know of, and I know quite a few fantasy settings. Yes, it's a lotr knockoff, and I'm sorry what I have seen has nothing on Tolkien's work. I love the concept of various realms which was best explored in Planescape Torment, but Forgotten Realms is just ... Meh. As for morality, whenever I was unsure how to resolve a quest, I cast detect alignment and chose whoever had the alignment I was roleplaying. I could pretty much bet that the game would consider joining the opposing side an "Evil" decision or "Good" decision. I absolutely believe that a good writer can do a lot with it - but Bioware back then merely had competent writers and it shows. I can't say whether the same ultimately holds true for Baldur's Gate 2 since I have tried to play BG2 for more than 6 hours about 4 times already, and every single time I was bored to tears by its plot and characters. After I finish the original again, I'm about midway trough right now, I will give the game another shot. I'm quite looking forward to it, but I'm not too optimistic.

 

Now, as for what Pillars of Eternity presents us with, I'm fully aware that there already is literature which does the same - and does it far better. That's not what I'm talking about. Presence of Elves, Dwarves, Halfl... I mean, Orlans - sure, there's absolutely nothing interesting about that. That's also not at all what I'm talking about (and I'm not about to stop reading every piece of literature which is only concerned with the boring humans.) I'm not talking about magical system or races or what kind of trees they're using. What I'm talking about is that I have never seen a videogame dealing with themes of reincarnation, of scientific progress or faith in this way. I have never seen a videogame which would have an overall tone similar to that present in Pillars of Eternity. I mean you have noticed it yourself and you happen to not like it. Sure, Pillars deals with many of these issues in an extremely clunky manner, but that's okay - I always appreciate the underlying thoughts first and foremost. Sure, writing in Pillars is not that great and while I feel it's far better than in Baldur's Gate (and it definitely is better than in the original game by a large margin), it has big problems, especially with exposition dumps and unnatural dialogue. But you know what? I have found and read every single book on lore in Pillars and enjoyed them thoroughly - RPG's lore has never managed to draw me in this much ever since playing Morrowind. Everything in that world is built around the themes I have mentioned in one way or another, and I loved it for this focus and dedication (that it's a brand new setting also helps of course.)

Edited by Fenixp
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PoE didn't feel dark at all. Wanna play a true dark fantasy RPG? Try Dark Souls... or Bloodborne. Those are truly dark and depressing worlds and definitely none where I wish to live in. The world of PoE felt as it should: reasonable. Maybe the image of corpses hanging on a tree were a little bit too dark or cruel for some, but we shouldn't forget that with Waiden's Legacy desperate times call for desperate measures. In fact I believe that Josh Sawyer, who studied history, was inspired by the famous picture called The Hanging depicting the cruelties done in the 30 Years War in Europe. So hats off to the devs for that amount of detail!

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I would LOVE to see something genuinely new.  POE is in the lines of Shadowrun and Arcanum.  All of them have dwarves, elves, orcs, etc.  All of them basically interpret them the same, with a little bit of variation.  I would LOVE to see something that actually departs from that, which is genuinely original.  None of those races, or obvious copies of them.  Come up with a new "monster manual". 

 

If anything, POE is very unoriginal. 

 

It's so for a variety of reasons, first off because that was what the majority of backers wanted. And second, because Obz were simply not small (or big) enough to be too brave, PoE was basically their sink or swim project. So they had to be a little cautious.

 

You can tell they wanted to do something else though - especially Chris Avellone I think; Durance is in essence a big middle finger to fantasy tropes, divine ones in particular.

 

They tried shaking it up before with Alpha Protocol, though. If you're looking for innovations in RPG settings.

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You can tell they wanted to do something else though - especially Chris Avellone I think; Durance is in essence a big middle finger to fantasy tropes, divine ones in particular.

 

Why? Durance is a character that has kinda been done to death (as well as the "Rage Against the Heavens" trope).

 

And I don't think they were really cautious with that game. They actually stated in interviews that they had a lot more freedom with that game than any of their previous ones.

 

And I agree that Alpha Protocol is very underrated.

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