The strong hold and its function

[wannos]

Hi im a huge fan of management rpg's such as these and my interest in what im about to put out here was spured on by obsidian in NWN 2 with the the little teaser called crossroad keep.  now i understand a lot of players don't really have the feel for the whole strong hold management thing and don't see its point but that's because its still hasn't been implemented correctly into a game.  developers are still seeing it as more of a side interest to the primary story mode which brings me to say i am like i was with crossroad keep disappointed in the lack of depth to the whole system. 

 

Obsidian is effeminately looking down the right path by making the stronghold have effect on the player but they still are only just brushing the surface.. as it is now the pillars strong hold is pretty much useless.. sure you get some buffs from resting there but they are not even nearly worth the cost to build!! and once you have built the upgrades the strong hold has no other uses.   so here is my proposal to put some life into the stronghold feature and make it for a more immersive more rewarding and dare say it a feeling of ownership power and dominance over ones subjects..

 

First things first.. you just stumble across the keep and umm its yours!! now in pillars their are factions which hold most of the power of the known world in the game.. so how come as a player i can just claim the keep.. shouldnt it belong to the realm of the owning faction and then shouldnt i earn the right own it or perhaps purchase it. !!! personally i would like to conquer it !! which is sort of what we do now.. but its more of a clear out than a conquer.

once we own the keep.. upgrading it and rebuilding it is a no brainer but its just not right.. instead of clicking on upgrades which take days.. how about representing the progress of the repairs in the game world so we can see the the progress day by day hour by hour.. also having some npc's moving about looking like they are doing the work would be awesome too this is just fluff mechanics which add to the feel.  

also as we obtain the keep we are told we already have the resources to fix it upp.. i dont like this.. i think we should have to locate miners and builders npc's from around the world and employ them to work at our keep mining stones and steels and then building the structures in real time.. this will ass the feeling of control and ownership over the keep.. 

 

A keep also has lands and it is responsible for those lands. and like cross road keep the ability to send out patrols to specific regions to keep the roads safe or protect towns and villages would be just great and again these things would need to be in real time so as we are exploring we randomly come across the paths of our own patrols on the roads or in towns.  

it would be good if we could send out our companions and created companions to procure trade deals and arms and weapons deals as well as negotiate pacts and alliances with other lords. around the land.  


what im trying to say is.. the strong hold keep needs alot more love before its going to be seen as a good feature.  things like a vault in the keep with tons of storage space not just some tiny chest. an actual physical room with bars and then chests behind those bars and pots for gold and so on so its represented in game.  the ability to employ a standing npc army that roams around the keep and ptrols the tops of our curtain walls.   and rather than just having npcs in the structures we build as defaults.. why not allow us to rebuild the structures then search and hire the npcs from around the game world maybe even make it where we must earn their trust before they will come and join us.

another neat feature i would like to see is a active living breathing market in the game world where merchants stok is constantly changing with new items. the keep needs to be more lively and it needs to give the illusion of power.. right now its just some walls and some  rather unpleasant npc's that do more or less nothing.. and that silly list of choices in the stronghold screen is just not cutting it.. if i want to send some one on a mission i want to converse with that companion about the mission!! and then order him to go and complete it.. then i want to obtain these missions from a keep steward who over looks the keep  and takes care of things and takes messages for me while im out doing more important things. so when i return i have ad etailed report by means of a conversation and then the freedom to go and delegate the tasks and problems to my companions or my npc army to complete.

and one last thing.. the ability to upgrade the standing npc force of the stronghold is a neccessary evil. its the feeling of progress and growing in military and diplomatic strenght when you are gradually watching your keep come to life and your army grow and their equipment improve from rough leather armour to scale mail and tabbards or even full plate suits.  it would be good to recruit the army in in groups such as archers infantry and support classes like mages and healers..  the over all size of your army should represent part of the security of your lands and your diplomatic rating stat. 

also keep events like attacks shoudl feel like attacks.. all i can say about the current keep attacks are "LOL!!!!!"  its just pathetic. i wouldnt mind seeing an entire battle break out where we have to organise the defence of our holdings and where our troops will deploy to give the feeling of a real keep attack in game.   

im just saying the strong hold system in NWN2 was great because its the first time its ever been done.. and that when obsidian had done it again in pillars it wasnt half as good as their first attempt. so this is a plea for a rework of the stronghold system so its something like the above. 

[Dinky Dino]

Only thing that bugs me is that it's a wasteful gold sink with prisoner's escaping left and right unavoidably even if you have the highest security and spent all that money on hirelings for more security. I mean you might as well auction them before they eventually run and sometimes one just took off after a single day of imprisonment with max security. Gold returns and tax collection rates are low too with bandits taking a large sum and it's so annoying have to go back to fend off attacks (for which you can't even loot most of the time) and deal with supplicants tanking rep. It feels more like a chore than a feature. I suppose I like that azzuro guy that sells stuff but him as a static npc selling his items would have been less of a headache. The adventures are all right but I feel the better one’s don’t appear until you reach end game where you have far more limited steps. The entire place is also pretty empty other than the few visitors or hirelings which are a waste of coin given how much you have to travel back for what they do.

 

I also think it needs a revamp since I dread having to deal with it every playthrough when it shouldn't be like that. But a lot of what you are asking is just very unlikely at this point. The stronghold being more alive is def on the top though.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Dinky Dino

[Silent Winter]

I don't see it as much of a money sink - since I have far too much money anyway - after the first couple of upgrades when money's more tight, it's not even a question of 'upgrade keep v. spend money on something else' - I just click.

 

I agree that prisoners escaping regardless of security rating is silly - security should have a much bigger effect.

 

Although full-scale keep invasions would be fun - it's not really that kind of game - so I can live with the smaller battles we have.

[Nakia]

1) You don't just stumble on the Stronghold you get sent there to find an Ol Watcher named Maerwald.

2) You have to deal with him before you can take over the Stronghold.  The Steward in the Adra Throne explains all this and also why and how the Stronghold was originally founded.

 

3) The only supplies provided are for the Eastern Barbican.  Think I got that right.

 

This isn't a  sim game, city builder and the devs in-game comment explains the problems they had making the Stronghold.

 

It would be nice to have more servants visible.  Maybe a cook and assistant where you could purchase food.  A librarian.

It does bother me that I get little or even no loot after defending the Stronghold.  Also those escaping prisoners are annoying especially when it is only after one day.  You also lose any loot from them by taking them prisoner.

[Foksuh]

Personally I didn't consider the keep a money sink, mainly because I was sitting on like 200k+ at the end of the game and still had plenty to sell.. and that was after I'd practically bought all the unique items and a lot spent on gems to do enchanting.

However, I think there could have been more life to the keep itself.

I did kinda hope there'd be more decisions related to how you rule your lands etc, kinda like what happened in BG2 if you happened to own a stronghold.
It would have been fun to be able to make calls on how the subjects are being treated etc. I also kinda expected there to be more life to place, because there was a lot of work that had to be done to rebuild it. Would have been nice to see the keep slowly come to life, attract more people to work and live there, perhaps even act as a some sort of resting place for travelers etc.

Can't have everything though and to me it wasn't a huge loss, the endless paths kept me busy enough :D

I don't know, maybe expansions could add stuff?

[TT1]

My thoughts about this : http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/74109-understanding-the-stronghold/?p=1694190

[Silent Winter]

Has anyone tested: If you get a 'bad visitor' - can you find them in the keep and kill them to remove the reputation loss?

(just thinking out loud - whenever a 'wanted criminal' arrived, I wanted to take them prisoner but that's not an option)

[the streaker]

I think the keep needs an expansion pack or something to flesh it out and integrate it into the story. It feels disconnected aside from the epilogue slides talking about it. In regards to the endless paths, there's definitely some filler material in there. Watcher's keep was half the levels of the endless paths, but felt like it had more content. The "combat only" levels almost seem to dilute the rest of the experience.

[EdwinP]

It would be nice to have more servants visible.  Maybe a cook and assistant where you could purchase food.  A librarian.

The librarian could be a source of quests - for new books or ancient scrolls. These tomes could unlock new spells / enchantment recipes / quests / encounter areas once they are found and given to the librarian.

Edited June 1, 2015 by EdwinP

[TT1]

Has anyone tested: If you get a 'bad visitor' - can you find them in the keep and kill them to remove the reputation loss?

(just thinking out loud - whenever a 'wanted criminal' arrived, I wanted to take them prisoner but that's not an option)

 

I just did, few minutes ago. Worked pretty well, actually. Just murdered him inside the keep and the bad reputation was gone. Beautiful.

 

Thank you for the inspiration.

[Drath]

 

Has anyone tested: If you get a 'bad visitor' - can you find them in the keep and kill them to remove the reputation loss?

(just thinking out loud - whenever a 'wanted criminal' arrived, I wanted to take them prisoner but that's not an option)

 

I just did, few minutes ago. Worked pretty well, actually. Just murdered him inside the keep and the bad reputation was gone. Beautiful.

 

Thank you for the inspiration.

 

Nice to know and thanks for testing. I got Durance to escort some schmuck off the premises and he took 5 days to finish it. If I'd known the above was possible, I would have paid the guy a visit on my next trip back to the Stronghold and gotten some free loot off him

[Crucis]

1) You don't just stumble on the Stronghold you get sent there to find an Ol Watcher named Maerwald.

2) You have to deal with him before you can take over the Stronghold.  The Steward in the Adra Throne explains all this and also why and how the Stronghold was originally founded.

 

3) The only supplies provided are for the Eastern Barbican.  Think I got that right.

 

This isn't a  sim game, city builder and the devs in-game comment explains the problems they had making the Stronghold.

 

It would be nice to have more servants visible.  Maybe a cook and assistant where you could purchase food.  A librarian.

It does bother me that I get little or even no loot after defending the Stronghold.  Also those escaping prisoners are annoying especially when it is only after one day.  You also lose any loot from them by taking them prisoner.

 

Agree 100%.  If I make the effort to get back to the Stronghold to defend it, I oughta get to keep all the loot from the enemies my party kills.

 

Also agree about how it's bogus to not get to strip any prisoners and keep their stuff.  Those prisoners should be going into their cells with little more than an orange jumpsuit .... or the fantasy RPG equivalent (simple clothes?).  Frankly, it's why I don't take prisoners. 

 

Also note that you have no choice but to take over the strong hold and repair the Eastern Barbican if you want to get to the areas to the east of Caed Nua.

 

Another thing that annoys me is that I have spent all this gold repairing the castle, but it seems that enemies are breaching its defenses constantly!  Why can't there be another area just outside of Caed Nua where you get to fight the attackers rather than having them miraculously always getting inside its defenses as if I, the Lord of Caed Nua, invited them in for a party and an obligatory sword fight.

[wanderon]

 

1) You don't just stumble on the Stronghold you get sent there to find an Ol Watcher named Maerwald.

2) You have to deal with him before you can take over the Stronghold.  The Steward in the Adra Throne explains all this and also why and how the Stronghold was originally founded.

 

3) The only supplies provided are for the Eastern Barbican.  Think I got that right.

 

This isn't a  sim game, city builder and the devs in-game comment explains the problems they had making the Stronghold.

 

It would be nice to have more servants visible.  Maybe a cook and assistant where you could purchase food.  A librarian.

It does bother me that I get little or even no loot after defending the Stronghold.  Also those escaping prisoners are annoying especially when it is only after one day.  You also lose any loot from them by taking them prisoner.

 

Agree 100%.  If I make the effort to get back to the Stronghold to defend it, I oughta get to keep all the loot from the enemies my party kills.

 

Also agree about how it's bogus to not get to strip any prisoners and keep their stuff.  Those prisoners should be going into their cells with little more than an orange jumpsuit .... or the fantasy RPG equivalent (simple clothes?).  Frankly, it's why I don't take prisoners. 

 

Also note that you have no choice but to take over the strong hold and repair the Eastern Barbican if you want to get to the areas to the east of Caed Nua.

 

Another thing that annoys me is that I have spent all this gold repairing the castle, but it seems that enemies are breaching its defenses constantly!  Why can't there be another area just outside of Caed Nua where you get to fight the attackers rather than having them miraculously always getting inside its defenses as if I, the Lord of Caed Nua, invited them in for a party and an obligatory sword fight.

 

 

I haven't done much with the Stronghold yet but doesn't the success or failure of the enemies of the stronghold depend on how you upgrade it? In other words some upgrades increase security some don't?

[MunoValente]

I always go back to the stronghold to fight the random battles, I wish they were a lot harder though.  I feel like those are battles they could scale to level and make tougher, but more often than not they are just trivial.

 

Fixing it so you could rest anywhere on the map really helped the rest part of the stronghold.

 

The botanical garden and curio shop are cool. The general merchant is adequate for dumping things you want to sell and buying camping supplies.  The chapel sells good scrolls, the warden lodge is good.  

 

The craft hall is a big disappointment, should really sell good, unique, expensive high end gear.  The dungeons are basically pointless, better off just killing and looting them most of the time, guess it's kind of handy for couple quests were it offers legit alternate solutions though.

 

Most of the other things do almost nothing and are boring.  Something that would be nice have, would be treasure that appears when you repair certain buildings like in NWN2 where you could restore part of keep and get the bag of holding.  Maybe there could be an upgrades that lets you stack sleep bonuses, might give things like the pool or hearth use.

 

I do think the "adventures" should have small stories attached, perhaps even alternate endings depending on who you send.

 

I do like the merchants that come buy and sell things.

 

The stronghold needs work, but I think potential is there.

[Nakia]

@ wanderon. theoretically the upgrades should affect the success or failure of the attacks and also who you hire to defend the Stronghold.  However my experience has been that the attacks set to auto resolve cause a lot of damage which cost money to repair or replace.  This forces you to return if you want to actually defend the Stronghold.  Since the attacks seem to be triggered when you leave the Stronghold this can get very annoying.

 

That is my experience anyway.

[Gromnir]

the purpose o' a strong hold is mostly self explanatory, for wrestling moves and judo, one needs a strong hold to effectively grapple with an opponent. to be able to lock one's grip on an opponent's wrist, or perhaps even clothing, is an essential second step after, or simultaneous with, achieving position.  a strong hold is also useful when attempting to open a jar o' pickles.

 

 

what?  Gromnir is responding to the title query.   am not sure what you all is discussing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nakia]

the purpose o' a strong hold is mostly self explanatory, for wrestling moves and judo, one needs a strong hold to effectively grapple with an opponent. to be able to lock one's grip on an opponent's wrist, or perhaps even clothing, is an essential second step after, or simultaneous with, achieving position.  a strong hold is also useful when attempting to open a jar o' pickles.

 

 

what?  Gromnir is responding to the title query.   am not sure what you all is discussing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

A strong hold on one's sanity is also very necessary when reading and posting on these forums.    

Edited June 4, 2015 by Nakia

[Crucis]

I always go back to the stronghold to fight the random battles, I wish they were a lot harder though.  I feel like those are battles they could scale to level and make tougher, but more often than not they are just trivial.

 

Fixing it so you could rest anywhere on the map really helped the rest part of the stronghold.

 

The botanical garden and curio shop are cool. The general merchant is adequate for dumping things you want to sell and buying camping supplies.  The chapel sells good scrolls, the warden lodge is good.  

 

The craft hall is a big disappointment, should really sell good, unique, expensive high end gear.  The dungeons are basically pointless, better off just killing and looting them most of the time, guess it's kind of handy for couple quests were it offers legit alternate solutions though.

 

Most of the other things do almost nothing and are boring.  Something that would be nice have, would be treasure that appears when you repair certain buildings like in NWN2 where you could restore part of keep and get the bag of holding.  Maybe there could be an upgrades that lets you stack sleep bonuses, might give things like the pool or hearth use.

 

I do think the "adventures" should have small stories attached, perhaps even alternate endings depending on who you send.

 

I do like the merchants that come buy and sell things.

 

The stronghold needs work, but I think potential is there.

 

1. Actually, I've heard that if your PC is a priest, you can affect what god is worshiped in the chapel, which may or may not have some further effect on things.

 

2. The Garden is one of the more worthwhile things, since it provides a constant supply of plants you'd need for enchantments.

 

3.  Yes, the Craft Hall is a big disappointment.  It'd be a lot better if that merchant, Azurro, who randomly visits the SH, would just take up residence with his supply of unique items.

 

4. 100% agree on the dungeon.  I never take prisoners.  If I can't have their loot when I throw them in the pokey, it's off with their heads!  No loot, no mercy! 

 

5.  Obviously, if you want the bounty missions (who wouldn't?), you need to repair the warden's lodge.  And given that amount of XP, gold, and loot to be had from those missions, they far more than offset the cost of the repair.

[abaris]

Has anyone tested: If you get a 'bad visitor' - can you find them in the keep and kill them to remove the reputation loss?

(just thinking out loud - whenever a 'wanted criminal' arrived, I wanted to take them prisoner but that's not an option)

 

You know, I never thought about it although it's rather obvious. Another question to ask would be if the game is smart enough to remove them for good or if they return anyway. You always get the same trio as far as I can tell.

[VanishedOne]

 

Has anyone tested: If you get a 'bad visitor' - can you find them in the keep and kill them to remove the reputation loss?

(just thinking out loud - whenever a 'wanted criminal' arrived, I wanted to take them prisoner but that's not an option)

 

I just did, few minutes ago. Worked pretty well, actually. Just murdered him inside the keep and the bad reputation was gone. Beautiful.

 

Thank you for the inspiration.

 

I'm afraid that may not have worked as well as you'd expect (unless some bug fix has changed the game's behaviour since I tried it).

 

You know, I never thought about it although it's rather obvious. Another question to ask would be if the game is smart enough to remove them for good or if they return anyway. You always get the same trio as far as I can tell.

It's smart enough to remove their physical existence from the world, and to restore your stronghold's stats when they die. However, the stronghold system seems not to realise they should be permanently dead, so they can come back despite no longer having bodies.

Edited June 6, 2015 by VanishedOne

[Silent Winter]

 

 

Has anyone tested: If you get a 'bad visitor' - can you find them in the keep and kill them to remove the reputation loss?

(just thinking out loud - whenever a 'wanted criminal' arrived, I wanted to take them prisoner but that's not an option)

 

I just did, few minutes ago. Worked pretty well, actually. Just murdered him inside the keep and the bad reputation was gone. Beautiful.

 

Thank you for the inspiration.

 

I'm afraid that may not have worked as well as you'd expect (unless some bug fix has changed the game's behaviour since I tried it).

 

You know, I never thought about it although it's rather obvious. Another question to ask would be if the game is smart enough to remove them for good or if they return anyway. You always get the same trio as far as I can tell.

It's smart enough to remove their physical existence from the world, and to restore your stronghold's stats when they die. However, the stronghold system seems not to realise they should be permanently dead, so they can come back despite no longer having bodies.

 

Has this been reported as a bug?

[TT1]

Well, the bad reputation was gone when i murdered him, so I´m happy

[player1]

Do you know that you can kill prisner while they are in dungeon and get their loot that way?

[hibbidyjibbidy]

i got 50 renown and 55 security, get all kinds of gold, goodies and items from adventures, if an attack happens i go back, maybe do a  level of the dungeon while im there.

you get what you put in, as far as i can tell

[abaris]

 

 It's smart enough to remove their physical existence from the world, and to restore your stronghold's stats when they die. However, the stronghold system seems not to realise they should be permanently dead, so they can come back despite no longer having bodies.

 

 

That's exactly what I meant. The game isn't smart enough to remove them permanently, but sends them in spirit. Has anyone checked if they really are bodiless at reappearance or if they're idling in the Great Hall as usual?