Ranged Fighter, How viable is it?

[koski]

I've been toying around about making a ranged fighter. Sure, there are classes that might seem more suited to it (such as ranger or rogue) but I feel they don't really incorporate what I'm looking for. Mostly because rogue talents seem a bit lacking in a sense (backstab doesn't really work etc.)

 

If we look at the features of fighter, we can see that they have these things going for them:

 

High base accuracy (30)

Disciplined Barrage (knockdown does not work with ranged?)

Confident Aim (reduce grazes count)

Weapon Specialization

Armored Grace (if you feel like wearing SOME armor)

 

Aside from that, you're forced to take the generic talents available for everyone. Is it that bad though? I know you're not getting Vicious Aim from Ranger line, which might or might not be that great (due to being a modal). Rogue obviously has a lot more damage via sneak attack, but that requires setup.

[Slapstick87]

Hrm... I'm tempted to argue that a ranged fighter IS a rogue. Thinking about it "in character" I doubt anyone would introduce himself or label himself a "rogue" or a "ranger" or a "barbarian". They're all just.... you know... fighters, soldiers, sellswords, whatever. 

 

I'm currently playing with a melee dps fighter. The strong point of a dps fighter is the survivability. It's much higher than a rogue or a barbarian, which I'm loving on my Ironman playthrough, although the dps is admittedly lower (still nb. 1 in the team though). You will not experience this benefit if you go ranged. The melee DPS is actually quite nice with my enchanted morningstar (they look awesome), so I imagine you would be able to output decent damage. However it would be nothing more than almost any other character could perform, without any other benefit whatsoever. It would be like sticking a gun on a rogue or a monk and never use a single ability.

 

You know, you could... by why would you?

[mazeltov]

Fighter tankiness might occasionally come in handy if the character does mid range work with a shotgun, say. Other than that, not much to recommend it. Pretty low maintenance, though.

[b0rsuk]

With Constant Recovery, you might decide to do something crazy like Dangerous Implement.

 

You know, it might just work. I'd test knockdown with ranged weapons first. For when you are ambushed, you have Clear Out.

[JONNIN]

I tried to build a ranger out of the fighter class.  It is viable.  It will do a fraction of the damage of a ranger, but it will not die easily.   Pick a weapon specialization, marksman, weapon mastery, play  either orlan or wood elf,  stand near kana with his ranged weapon chant running,  pick up gunner if you use guns,  confident aim seems to partially work (accuracy bit??) for ranged (not 100% sure, anyone know for sure?),  and so on.  

 

Mine is a weirdo and based off implements so I have dangerous implements instead of gunner,  and noble for my weapon focus/mastery.   I start with a gunshot or arebelest and swap over to my rod/staff after.   It crits a LOT. 

 

But a ranger will easily do twice or more the damage of this build.   And a melee fighter will easily do twice the damge as well.  It comes down to this: the fighter can't get the ranger's talent to increase loading and shooting speed, and he can't get the class skill to mark the enemy.   So you get a durable "pseudoranger" that does half the damage but can take 3 times as much punishment when attacked.  

Edited May 11, 2015 by JONNIN

[Crucis]

Seems to me that the Dangerous Implement/Constant Recovery combo is a bit , I don't know, risky? combo to use.  Sure, you'll be able to quickly regain the END lost, but you won't be able to recover the Health lost until you rest.   And if this character is built around a high DEX and light-ish armor to maximize how quickly you shoot your magical implement, you could be taking a pretty hefty amount of damage to your Health pool each battle, even against the proverbial trash mobs.  Is it really worth it?

[JONNIN]

Seems to me that the Dangerous Implement/Constant Recovery combo is a bit , I don't know, risky? combo to use.  Sure, you'll be able to quickly regain the END lost, but you won't be able to recover the Health lost until you rest.   And if this character is built around a high DEX and light-ish armor to maximize how quickly you shoot your magical implement, you could be taking a pretty hefty amount of damage to your Health pool each battle, even against the proverbial trash mobs.  Is it really worth it?

 

Its a fighter in the back -- it is not being hit much,  and dangerous implements is a very small damage.   By the time I need to rest on my main tanks up front, the ranged fighter in the back is still at 90% health or better.   The dangerous implement *ranger* also has a pretty solid health pool and can make a decent build, but the ranger will be hurting in a long fight.   DI is a toggle, though -- you can turn if off if you need to do so.

 

Worth it?  It probably is better to use guns or xbows to be honest.   But it is something I did, just to see how it would work.   The best thing you can say about its you can use all 3 damage types and do pretty consistent, decent damage with it.   Its not the dps powerhouse I had hoped for. 

[Exoduss]

Dont think fighters can compare to damage with other classes , ofc in poe you can build anything w/e . I wish they had some damage skills too 

[durbal]

Ranged weapons are generally worthless in this game unless you're lazy and/or bad (with some exceptions).  Enemies just sit there while engaged so a ranged character can be doing more damage with a pike or staff.

Edited May 11, 2015 by durbal

[dudex]

bows/guns are really underwhelming in terms of damage output compared to melee and magic and need all the help they can get. Fighter class doesnt really offer much talents and abilities.

 

10 acc is nice ability early game but is overridden by other spells if u are in a party.

confident aim is a great talent imo because its the only ability that modifies base damage of weapons however due to lack of damage/speed modifiers on the fighter it feels like its being wasted. Also u barely graze after early game due to all the deflection debuffs and accuracy buffs flying around in battles.

 

if u want to play dangerously try using running a half endurance human with guns/bows full time instead of dangrous implement. havent tried it so not sure how well they do in game.

 

I have tried multiple times to make a ranged character do good damage but they just always feel too weak compared to other roles. Weapon swapping rogue is the only one that offers good damage but thats only the initial burst after that its very meh. In POTD where there are often a dozen enemies attacking you having 4 shot burst just isnt enough.

Edited May 11, 2015 by dudex

[Crucis]

Ranged weapons are generally worthless in this game unless you're lazy and/or bad (with some exceptions).  Enemies just sit there while engaged so a ranged character can be doing more damage with a pike or staff.

 

This is uncalled for, and actually rather offensive.  Not everyone wants to play a barbarian or a fighter or whatever melee warrior floats your boat.  Some people ENJOY playing ranged combatants.  Some people ENJOY playing a ranger with a bow.  Calling them lazy or bad players is absolutely uncalled for!!!

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Ranged weapons are generally worthless in this game unless you're lazy and/or bad (with some exceptions).  Enemies just sit there while engaged so a ranged character can be doing more damage with a pike or staff.

 

This is uncalled for, and actually rather offensive.  Not everyone wants to play a barbarian or a fighter or whatever melee warrior floats your boat.  Some people ENJOY playing ranged combatants.  Some people ENJOY playing a ranger with a bow.  Calling them lazy or bad players is absolutely uncalled for!!!

 

Guys trolling anyway, ranged is way better than melee, sure it's lazy, but that's because it's so good.

 

@Topic

Ranged fighter is a waste, since he hast all the talents to tank and is not superior to any ranged class, rogue, cipher, heck even ranger is better ranged than fighter...

Edited May 11, 2015 by Raven Darkholme

[b0rsuk]

Surely ranged fighter must be better than a ranged ranger ? ;]

[Crucis]

 

 

Ranged weapons are generally worthless in this game unless you're lazy and/or bad (with some exceptions).  Enemies just sit there while engaged so a ranged character can be doing more damage with a pike or staff.

 

This is uncalled for, and actually rather offensive.  Not everyone wants to play a barbarian or a fighter or whatever melee warrior floats your boat.  Some people ENJOY playing ranged combatants.  Some people ENJOY playing a ranger with a bow.  Calling them lazy or bad players is absolutely uncalled for!!!

 

Guys trolling anyway, ranged is way better than melee, sure it's lazy, but that's because it's so good.

 

@Topic

Ranged fighter is a waste, since he hast all the talents to tank and is not superior to any ranged class, rogue, cipher, heck even ranger is better ranged than fighter...

 

 

If a ranged fighter is a "waste", it's because the game has pigeon-holed Fighters into a corner.  A corner where they're expected to be melee fighters, and about the only two options are whether to lean towards a more defensive build or a more offensive build or perhaps somewhere a little in the middle.  About the only way in which the Fighter isn't the opposite of a Ranger (AC aside) is that Fighters don't get a penalty for using ranged weapons, as rangers get penalized for using melee weapons.

 

Regardless, I don't think that a truly ranged fighter build is worth the trouble, if only because the PoE rules just don't let them be competitive with Rangers or ranged Rogues.  That said, there's no reason why one couldn't go for a "balanced" fighter who was built to be capable in both melee and at range.  It probably wouldn't be that hard.  Maybe start by not picking every defensive ability and talent possible.  Pick a good WF that fits how you view your balanced fighter, then stick with weapons within that group, and go for Weap Spec and Weap Mastery.  Maybe go for Defender and Wary Defender, if only because they're so good that they're almost impossible to ignore even for a balanced fighter.  I'd probably stay away from a talent like Marksman because it's a one-way talent.  And suggest picking offensive talents and abilities that work with both melee and ranged weapons.

 

Also, such a fighter might want to have more DEX and wear lighter armor than your normal tanky fighter so that he can be able to get more attacks in, particularly when he's attacking at range, or possibly with extended reach weapons. 

 

Come to think of it, a "balanced fighter" may be pretty good as a melee warrior who has a preference for using extended reach weapons and fighting behind the tank wall.  Just a thought.  Of course, this kind of makes picking a WF rather tricky (or not).  There are only 2 extended reach weapon types:  Qstaffs and Pikes.  And Qstaffs are in a rather weak WF group for this sort of fighter, IMO.  So you're looking at WF Soldier, and you end up with a choice of 2 very slow loading ranged weapons (arquebus and arbalest), greatsword (2H), pike (2H reach), and warhammer (1H).  Not bad, though those ranged weapons are about as slow reloading as it gets.  Some will like the high power of those 2 weapons, while I could see others preferring ranged weapons that might not be quite so slow reloading.

 

Another option could be the Ruffian, which would offer you 2 solid 1H weapons, the saber and club (plus the stiletto), as well as the pistol and blunderbus.  Not much faster reloading than the Arq or Arb, but a little bit.  And no 2H weapons or reach weapons.  This option creates a rather different flavor than the Soldier option.

 

And the other decent option is the Knight WF, which offers the 1H Battleaxe and Sword, the 2H Morningstar, and the Crossbow.  But no reach weapons.  IIRC, a downside here is that good unique weapons in this group are hard to come by until later in the game, which seems to me like a significant oversight on the Devs' part.  But once you get the good unique weapons, they're pretty good.

 

I have to admit that I kinda like the Ruffian group best, because somehow it seems like it fits how I'm sorta seeing this sort of build from a RP perspective.  Less of a trained soldier type of warrior.  Maybe not exactly a swashbuckler, but a less formally trained warrior who might be seen using sabers and pistols.  Perhaps with a raider background from the Deadfire Archipelago.   Argh, me mateys!   Argh!!!!

 

 

 

 

[b0rsuk]

Actually, rangers have a number of abilities that work in melee. All animal companion abilities. Swift Aim, Marked Prey, Wounding Shot, Binding Roots. Only Vicious Aim and Stunning Arrows don't work, as far as I know.

 

Ranged fighters and barbarians are in a worse position.

[Crucis]

Actually, rangers have a number of abilities that work in melee. All animal companion abilities. Swift Aim, Marked Prey, Wounding Shot, Binding Roots. Only Vicious Aim and Stunning Arrows don't work, as far as I know.

 

Ranged fighters and barbarians are in a worse position.

 

I don't know about that.  Do either of them take a -15 accuracy penalty for using ranged weapons, as rangers take a -15 penalty for using melee weapons?  That penalty is a pretty nasty hit to any ranger's effectiveness in melee, IMO.

[b0rsuk]

 

Actually, rangers have a number of abilities that work in melee. All animal companion abilities. Swift Aim, Marked Prey, Wounding Shot, Binding Roots. Only Vicious Aim and Stunning Arrows don't work, as far as I know.

 

Ranged fighters and barbarians are in a worse position.

 

I don't know about that.  Do either of them take a -15 accuracy penalty for using ranged weapons, as rangers take a -15 penalty for using melee weapons?  That penalty is a pretty nasty hit to any ranger's effectiveness in melee, IMO.

 

 

Why do you keep repeating that ? You've already been corrected in another thread. There is no -15 penalty for using melee weapons. There probably was at some point. Don't rely on the outdated wiki.

 

Fighter and Barbarian are literally the worst classes for ranged combat. Even Paladins can do crazy single target damage for a few attacks. A monk can use Dangerous Implement talent, Swift Strikes, Lightning Strikes, Turning Wheel, maybe Stunning Blow.

Edited May 11, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Luckmann]

It works.. but support for it is pretty poor, mostly in terms of Abilities. They're geared very much around melee and tanking. Hopefully they'll get more "general" abilities and talents in expansions and such. They could really use some help in this department for build variety.

[Crucis]

 

 

Actually, rangers have a number of abilities that work in melee. All animal companion abilities. Swift Aim, Marked Prey, Wounding Shot, Binding Roots. Only Vicious Aim and Stunning Arrows don't work, as far as I know.

 

Ranged fighters and barbarians are in a worse position.

 

I don't know about that.  Do either of them take a -15 accuracy penalty for using ranged weapons, as rangers take a -15 penalty for using melee weapons?  That penalty is a pretty nasty hit to any ranger's effectiveness in melee, IMO.

 

 

Why do you keep repeating that ? You've already been corrected in another thread. There is no -15 penalty for using melee weapons. There probably was at some point. Don't rely on the outdated wiki.

 

Fighter and Barbarian are literally the worst classes for ranged combat. Even Paladins can do crazy single target damage for a few attacks. A monk can use Dangerous Implement talent, Swift Strikes, Lightning Strikes, Turning Wheel, maybe Stunning Blow.

 

 

I don't constantly re-read every freakin' thread on this forum that I post in.  I've seen no such correction, nor have I seen any reason to think otherwise.

 

 

[Raven Darkholme]

@Crucis

 

Does it really matter WHY ranged fighters are a waste? The point is they are, so why would anyone who wants a ranged char pick a fighter? If you had only one ranged char in your party, would you really take a fighter if you also could take a cipher or rogue? No, except you're trying to prove a point.

[taek]

Several abilities will work, including Disciplined Barrage and Clear Out.

And of course you have all your passives as well.

 

And for all intents & purposes it's just a fighter who is using a 2H weapon instead of sword & board. I don't see why it wouldn't work any better or worse than a 2H fighter other than you can't use the melee talents obviously.  2H fighters tend to be not as damage dealing as dedicated DPS classes like Rogue or Ranger but they are much sturdier and don't require much micro (if any).

 

You might also want to go Island Amau with Quick Switch and rotate long reload weapons to start battles and get a strong alpha strike from range going...although this gets into heavy micromanagement.

 

 

 

 

[Luckmann]

Suggested additions:

• Intense Barrage, level 1; a quick succession of 3-5 attacks, 1/encounter.
  Aggressor, level 3; a modal that increases attack rate and damage, but at the expense of Reflex, Fortitude and Will.
• Tactician, level 3; a modal that reduces all defences of the Fighter considerable, but moderately increases the Accuracy and Interrupt of all allies.
• Charge, level 5; charges into combat, pushing opponents to the sides and doing a single full attack against a target enemy, or the enemy nearest in range after charging, 2/encounter. Only usable when not already Engaged.
• Deathstrike, level 5; a single full attack with a gargantuan bonus to Accuracy, and a chance to inflict Hobbled, Prone and Weakened, 1-2/encounter.
   

@Crucis

 

Does it really matter WHY ranged fighters are a waste? The point is they are, so why would anyone who wants a ranged char pick a fighter? If you had only one ranged char in your party, would you really take a fighter if you also could take a cipher or rogue? No, except you're trying to prove a point.

 

I think it matters why they're a waste, because without the why, we cannot have the how, as in how to fix it.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

A Ranged Fighter Thoughts............

 

I wonder if you stick a fighter in clothes would he still get the -16% recovery from Armored Grace? Sounds like he should. That plus the generic reloading talent. Being an elf, plus marksman talent. soldier talent. Maybe Interrupting Blows. Maxed Might&Dex&Per&Res dump Int and Con. Int would only be needed for Discplined Barrage and its only 1 per encounter not worth it. Even dumping Con Fighter will have more con then any ranged squishy.

 

That would be +15 accuracy to the fighters already high accuracy. Possible 36% speed increase (armored grace and reloading talent). Would interrupt amazingly. If the speed mods for weapons work in 1.05 you could add leash and superb to Hold Wall Arbalest in the first town that would increase speed by another 20%. Plus weapon specialization and mastery for added damage. Could get away with clothes cause of maxed Per&Res and fighters high deflection. Wouldn't have to worry about him in the back and if something gets through switch to melee like pike/great sword.

 

The Fighters ranged accuracy would actually be +10 higher then his melee accuracy from being an elf and marksman. So fighter should actually crit more in ranged combat then melee. The Fighter should then have the highest possible damage of any class in range not counting the Rogue Sneak Attack. Probably will crit about as much as the ranger from ranged. So 40% faster relaod and 16% faster recovery time.

 

Now I am really curious about trying one out.

[Raven Darkholme]

Suggested additions:

 

• Intense Barrage, level 1; a quick succession of 3-5 attacks, 1/encounter.

  Aggressor, level 3; a modal that increases attack rate and damage, but at the expense of Reflex, Fortitude and Will.

• Tactician, level 3; a modal that reduces all defences of the Fighter considerable, but moderately increases the Accuracy and Interrupt of all allies.
• Charge, level 5; charges into combat, pushing opponents to the sides and doing a single full attack against a target enemy, or the enemy nearest in range after charging, 2/encounter. Only usable when not already Engaged.
• Deathstrike, level 5; a single full attack with a gargantuan bonus to Accuracy, and a chance to inflict Hobbled, Prone and Weakened, 1-2/encounter.

   

@Crucis

 

Does it really matter WHY ranged fighters are a waste? The point is they are, so why would anyone who wants a ranged char pick a fighter? If you had only one ranged char in your party, would you really take a fighter if you also could take a cipher or rogue? No, except you're trying to prove a point.

 

 

I think it matters why they're a waste, because without the why, we cannot have the how, as in how to fix it.

I don't think whether or not to fix ranged fighters was point of the thread, but rather it's current application, other than that you might have a point.

[KDubya]

Offensive spec'd fighters do very well with an initial ranged volley before switching to melee. They have the highest base  accuracy, weapon focus, spec and mastery for +6 accuracy and +25% damage (which only fighters can get).

 

Coastal amaumau would let you fire two volleys of heavy ranged firearms before switching to melee. Pick soldier (arquebus and arbalest), ruffian (pistol and blunderbuss), knight (crossbow) for a big hit with slow reload. Since you will fire each weapon once the reload does not matter.

 

Going full time ranged would make the most durable backliner but would be limited to auto-attacks. Might be too boring, but would be able to hang till the end of the fight, or even beyond with the self rez ability.

 

Wood Elf

Might - 18

con - 8

dex - 20

per - 19

int - 3

res - 10

Talents/abilities -

Disciplined barrage - per encounter +10 accuracy buff

Weapon focus - +6 accuracy to weapon group Knight - crossbow have good interrupt and enough damage to not need penetrating shot

Confident aim - graze>hit to increase damage, plus 20% minimum damage to help bypass DR

Marksman - +5 accuracy for ranged

Weapon spec - +15% damage

Gunner - +20% reload

Armored Grace - -16% armor penalty

Weapon focus - +10% damage

Critical Defense - crit>hit, hit> graze

interrupting blows - +15% interrupt

unbreakable - self rez

open pick - quick switch, dual wield, two handed style,

 

Might be boring but would be durable and a good interrupter.