Prevent Dump Stats

[roller12]

Making a SPECIFIC build is not easy - making a build that can play the game and win IS easy here.

(There are even recommended stats if you don't know).

What does TOEE's problems have to do with PoE?  In PoE there are good weapons (and armours) of all types and they're easily (too easily IMO) enchantable to bridge the gap.

PoE =! Diablo - what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another.  No stats = no conversation options based on stats,

Gear (in PoE) can make up for shortfalls in one stat, or enhance your best stat -> choice

Yes i agree, gear enhances character's capabilities and should direct his choice, wearing heavy armor makes us sturdier/slower and light armor makes us agile/frail. Stats dont add anything to this equation other than being there and f*** things up. (thats why they are so easy to min/max). So, what do stats even do/matter? How many here have played a dps class with might 3 i wonder. Convos i think should be influenced by choices made in the game not some preset stat again it restricts the choice before the game even began technically.

[Daemonjax]

Each stat would need to be made valuable to both kinds of character types: DPSers and Tanks.

 

They had the right idea... they just didn't take it far enough.

 

I'd like to see a mod that doubled the length of interrupts, and doubled the constitution bonuses/penalties.  Even then, resolve might be weakest stat due to crowd control abilities.  Maybe add a momentary free disengagement on interrupt?  That would go into AI rework territory, though.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Daemonjax

[FlintlockJazz]

If you want to lay the hurt on dump statting, you could double the penalties for each point below 10.  That'd really kill the fortitude/reflex/will saves of any character going the dump stat route.

This isn't such a bad idea thinking about it.  While it's a tabletop game and maybe not fully comparable, GURPS uses an point based system where quite often an advantage that gives a bonus in one area either costs more than the equivalent disadvantage that gives a negative or doesn't give as big a bonus as the disadvantage.  The idea as stated by one of the developers was that if a player takes a disadvantage that reduces their social skills for instance then they are probably not going to be playing a social character and will actively avoid it in favour of the methods that they have invested points in, reducing their need for it as they utilise other methods, while by taking an advantage in something they will want to seek out opportunities to use that advantage even more which means that they will get more use out of it.

[Luj1]

Each stat would need to be made valuable to both kinds of character types: DPSers and Tanks.

 

They had the right idea... they just didn't take it far enough.

 

 

I'd say JSE took it too far actually.  He put balance before fun and still didn't make it perfectly balanced

 

 

 

 

I'd like to see a mod that doubled the length of interrupts, and doubled the constitution bonuses/penalties. .

 

Yes I prefer attributes with more impact too. +3% per point ?  I am more of a +10% person

Edited May 11, 2015 by Luj1

[JONNIN]

What do you mean by dump stats?   If you mean disallow the ability to decrease stats below 10, well --- who is to say that my fighter is not a moron or that my wizard is frailer than rastalin?   Or did you mean that some stats are just better than others??   The balance is decent, but some stats DO help combat more than others.

 

I like the old roll systems better, where you  have to accept a roll at some point, but the temptation to keep hitting reroll hoping for better was always a temptation...  I remember rolling a party in wizardry 7 took hours to get that fairy ninja.

[Ink Blot]

What do you mean by dump stats?

Stats that have no use for a particular character/class build. Such as INT for Fighters in the old D&D system (not sure what the new on is like). Or, as an example, in IWD2, you'd build (if you're powergaming) your Fighters with max STR, CON, and maybe DEX. You'd dump all other stats to the lowest possible. For Wizards, you'd max INT, DEX, and maybe CON. You'd dump all other stats.

[Luj1]

I think dump stats should exist to make character building exciting

[GrinningReaper659]

I think dump stats should exist to make character building exciting

 

I don't see what's so exciting about wasting points in dump stats once and then never doing so again once you realize they're dump stats. Dump stats are simply bad design.

[Ink Blot]

 

I don't see what's so exciting about wasting points in dump stats once and then never doing so again once you realize they're dump stats. Dump stats are simply bad design.

 

I honestly don't see a good solution. There will always be dump stats unless you create a system where even lowering one stat carries such a high penalty that it basically cripples the character. And if you create a system like that, it ends up making all character builds boringly similar because non one will dump any stats at all.

 

I personally don't mind if there are dump stats for character class builds, as long as they're not the same one or two stats for every class ( like CHA was the de facto dump stat for almost all character classes in D&D other than the Sorcerer - and to a lesser extent, the Bard).

[Luj1]

 

I think dump stats should exist to make character building exciting

 

I don't see what's so exciting about wasting points in dump stats once and then never doing so again once you realize they're dump stats. Dump stats are simply bad design.

 

 

 

Certain character have dump stats. Its normal. Its impossible to have every stat matter for everybody. PoE is a good example why this cant work

[GrinningReaper659]

 

 

I think dump stats should exist to make character building exciting

 

I don't see what's so exciting about wasting points in dump stats once and then never doing so again once you realize they're dump stats. Dump stats are simply bad design.

 

 

 

Certain character have dump stats. Its normal. Its impossible to have every stat matter for everybody. PoE is a good example why this cant work

 

 

So you actually prefer to have a system like in the IE games where half of the stats essentially don't matter at all? Okay, that's fine (doesn't make any sense to me), but please drop the line about the possibility of making mistakes being exciting because of dump stats hmmm, should I dump WIS, INT, and CHA on my fighter and max the rest or not? Tough choice, really exciting.

[Tigranes]

*shrug* POE stats still have dump stats. It's probably extremely hard to not have any dump stats, or at least, not have slightly less useful stats. 

 

"Are there dump stats" is from the beginning an unproductive line of inquiry. What's important is whether the stat system allows the same class to produce multiple different types of characters through the attribute system. The answer in POE, broadly, is yes. It allows much more flexibility and creativity than most other attribute systems. I'll give them a big thumbs up for being able to create relatively high deflection wizards as well as real glass cannons, etc., even if they didn't get it all right.

[Crucis]

 

Dump Stats are a killer for me in any RPG system.

 

I think there should be dump stats but w/e

 

I like Might being important for Mages and Int being important for Barbarians but maybe they should have stopped there. Sawyer tried to mess with it too much (make every stat important for everybody which just isn't possible), so eventually he killed all the fun of char building due to focusing on convenience and balance at all costs

 

Ironically, he still couldn't escape dump stats haha

 

 

Personally, I hate the idea of Might being important to spellcasting.  Hate it with a passion.  Might should be nothing more and nothing less than physical brute strength.  If you want to have a different stat for determining the strength of one's spellcasting, making it Resolve.  One's resolve is a matter of mental and spiritual strength.  One's conviction. And so forth.

 

By combining physical and spiritual strength into a single stat, it becomes impossible to separate the two for other reasons.  Like pushing down that wall in the tutorial dungeon.  Or determining encumbrance (if one wanted to be doing it).

 

[Crucis]

 

 

2. Perhaps the penalties for going below 10 on "Save" stats, should get increasingly large the more you go below 10.  I don't mean a straight line progression, but something more penal.  -1 for 9, -3 for 8, -6 for 7, -10 for 6, and so on.  And this is only a base.  One could multiply these number by 2 or 3 to make them more penal.  But don't do the same thing in reverse on the positive side.  Don't make it so that adding 6 points to RES can offset the penalty for taking 6 points from PER.

I think I'd have to agree with KDubya on this one. This kind of implementation would be a terrible idea, as it would just serve to make all builds end up in a very narrow range of ability scores.

 

 

No, it'd force you to really, really think about whether you want to be dumping points in a given stat beyond a certain point.  Oh boo-hoo!  You can't build that extreme min-maxed uber OP character.  My heart bleeds for you.  (Not.)

[Crucis]

 

 

 

I think dump stats should exist to make character building exciting

 

I don't see what's so exciting about wasting points in dump stats once and then never doing so again once you realize they're dump stats. Dump stats are simply bad design.

 

 

 

Certain character have dump stats. Its normal. Its impossible to have every stat matter for everybody. PoE is a good example why this cant work

 

 

So you actually prefer to have a system like in the IE games where half of the stats essentially don't matter at all? Okay, that's fine (doesn't make any sense to me), but please drop the line about the possibility of making mistakes being exciting because of dump stats hmmm, should I dump WIS, INT, and CHA on my fighter and max the rest or not? Tough choice, really exciting.

 

 

And frankly, it's not any different here.  It's just a different set of stats being dumped.  And a sillier looking set of stats being dumped.

 

At least with the maxed STR, CON, DEX characters, the maxed and dumped stats made some rational sense.  But there are builds in PoE that make no rational sense are are only meta-gaming builds that I find extremely annoying, the prime example being the min STR, max DEFL fighter builds that are designed to completely abuse the game's AI by creating characters who are too weak to even carry the armor they're wearing, let alone the weight of their own bodies.

 

Honestly, I like how the old DnD stats were used better than the way the PoE stats are used.  That said, I think that the PoE stats might have more potential, if they were used in a more rational manner (as least IMO).

 

 

[View619]

Might is not the same as Strength.

[scrotiemcb]

I could make a dump-free system for tanks easily.

MIG: +3% damage, +2 fortitude (no healing)

CON: +4% health, +5% duration (no endurance, no fortitude)

DEX: +3% action speed, +2 reflex

PER: +5% range*, +2 deflection (no reflex)

INT: +5% area of effect, +2 will (no duration)

RES: +4% endurance, +3% healing (no will, no deflection)

*12m range on weapons to 10m base (6.5m@3per,15m@20per), 10m range on weapons to 5m base (3.25m@3per,7.5m@20per)

 

The issue is squishies. You can reduce dump by separating duration and AoE, and by penalizing a lack of perception with reduced range, but you can't force squishies to use duration, AoE, and/or ranged abilities.

Edited May 11, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[Crucis]

Might is not the same as Strength.

 

 

It SHOULD BE.

[JONNIN]

 

What do you mean by dump stats?

Stats that have no use for a particular character/class build. Such as INT for Fighters in the old D&D system (not sure what the new on is like). Or, as an example, in IWD2, you'd build (if you're powergaming) your Fighters with max STR, CON, and maybe DEX. You'd dump all other stats to the lowest possible. For Wizards, you'd max INT, DEX, and maybe CON. You'd dump all other stats.

 

 

Ah.  That *barely* exists here.  Every stat is worth having, and kicking any stat to 2-3 has a negative effect, whether it is reduced saving throws or lower health or whatever.   Int is the only real stat that can safely be dumped by a number of classes, but even those suffer a reduced duration or range on many skills, and for the main character, your soul abilities suffer with reduced int as well.  All the other stats have an acceptable penalty if you drop them below 10.

 

I never played D&D that way, we rolled dice for the stats and that was that...  but it did not matter.   We had a lot of  "roll vs" --- you might be a wizard that has a 2 strength, but you would still find yourself trying to lift or pull on something and roll 3 d6 less than your strength to accomplish the task... or roll 3 vs your intellect to etc...  real role playing uses all the stats on all the players to get things done and a combat oriented max/min player was going to suffer badly at everything outside of combat.   Very badly.

[Crucis]

I could make a dump-free system for tanks easily.

MIG: +3% damage, +2 fortitude (no healing)

CON: +4% health, +5% duration (no endurance, no fortitude)

DEX: +3% action speed, +2 reflex

PER: +5% range*, +2 deflection (no reflex)

INT: +5% area of effect, +2 will (no duration)

RES: +4% endurance, +3% healing (no will, no deflection)

*12m range on weapons to 10m base, 10m range on weapons to 5m base

 

The issue is squishies. You can reduce dump by separating duration and AoE, and by penalizing a lack of perception with reduced range, but you can't force squishies to use duration, AoE, and/or ranged abilities.

 

 

Scro, honestly, FORT should be linked to CON.  Constitution and Fortitude seem very interrelated to me, and much the same thing.

[View619]

 

Might is not the same as Strength.

 

 

It SHOULD BE.

 

 

Well, it's not. You're free to make a mod of the attributes and see how it works, but trying to replace POE attributes with D&D is futile. Next thing, we'll be hearing about how Dexterity should affect Deflection so it's similar to the way Dexterity affects AC in D&D.

Edited May 11, 2015 by View619

[scrotiemcb]

 

 

I could make a dump-free system for tanks easily.

MIG: +3% damage, +2 fortitude (no healing)

CON: +4% health, +5% duration (no endurance, no fortitude)

DEX: +3% action speed, +2 reflex

PER: +5% range*, +2 deflection (no reflex)

INT: +5% area of effect, +2 will (no duration)

RES: +4% endurance, +3% healing (no will, no deflection)

*12m range on weapons to 10m base, 10m range on weapons to 5m base

 

The issue is squishies. You can reduce dump by separating duration and AoE, and by penalizing a lack of perception with reduced range, but you can't force squishies to use duration, AoE, and/or ranged abilities.

Scro, honestly, FORT should be linked to CON. Constitution and Fortitude seem very interrelated to me, and much the same thing.

I agree that there is a bit of a "realism" issue with such a system. A lot of this could be fixed with renaming...

Fortitude becomes Stability

Constitution becomes Vigor

Will becomes Logic

 

But as I said earlier in the thread, a game isn't supposed to be a reality simulator. At the end of the day it is the gameplay that matters, and although it feels wonky my system offers more meaningful choice than the present attribute system.

Edited May 11, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[Crucis]

 

 

Might is not the same as Strength.

 

 

It SHOULD BE.

 

 

Well, it's not. You're free to make a mod of the attributes and see how it works, but trying to replace POE attributes with D&D is futile. Next thing, we'll be hearing about how Dexterity should affect Deflection so it's similar to the way Dexterity affects AC in D&D.

 

 

You're missing the point and spirit of the thread.  People are talking about how they think things SHOULD BE, not how they actually are.  Go rain on someone else's parade.

[Ink Blot]

No, it'd force you to really, really think about whether you want to be dumping points in a given stat beyond a certain point.  Oh boo-hoo!  You can't build that extreme min-maxed uber OP character.  My heart bleeds for you.  (Not.)

 

And you'd get to build your character pretty much exactly the same as every other character. *golf clap*

 

My heart bleeds for you. (Not).

 

Wow, it's easy to play the snarky insult game.

[Crucis]

 

 

I could make a dump-free system for tanks easily.

MIG: +3% damage, +2 fortitude (no healing)

CON: +4% health, +5% duration (no endurance, no fortitude)

DEX: +3% action speed, +2 reflex

PER: +5% range*, +2 deflection (no reflex)

INT: +5% area of effect, +2 will (no duration)

RES: +4% endurance, +3% healing (no will, no deflection)

*12m range on weapons to 10m base, 10m range on weapons to 5m base

 

The issue is squishies. You can reduce dump by separating duration and AoE, and by penalizing a lack of perception with reduced range, but you can't force squishies to use duration, AoE, and/or ranged abilities.

 

Scro, honestly, FORT should be linked to CON. Constitution and Fortitude seem very interrelated to me, and much the same thing.

I agree that there is a bit of a "realism" issue with such a system. A lot of this could be fixed with renaming...

Fortitude becomes Sturdiness

Constitution becomes Vigor

Will becomes Logic

 

But as I said earlier in the thread, a game isn't supposed to be a reality simulator. At the end of the day it is the gameplay that matters, and although it feels wonky my system offers more meaningful choice than the present attribute system.

 

 

Sorry, scro, but I'd rather that things were rational, rather than made up with no rational underlying basis.  Thus, I'd rather that Fort was tied to CON because it makes a lot more sense, rationally speaking. 

Please note that I'm not looking at this from some hyper realism point of view.  Just a relatively moderate and reasonable one.  Linking Fort to Might makes no sense whatsoever to me.  Period.  Might (pardon the pun) as well link it to Int or Perception.  Makes just as little sense.  IMO, Fort should be linked to CON or nothing at all.