I think you made a mistake with 1.05 concerning Cipher focus

[doctoruniverse]

I think obsidian might have made a mistake on the nerf to ciphers. 

 

Im talking about their starting focus of 1/4 instead of 1/2 which I believe was totally unneccesary.

 

Infact that change only made it so that ciphers basicly has to go with the blunderbuss or melee fire retal build. 

 

But the reason I think the nerf was alittle to much was that it dosnt really take away any power from the cipher late-game, but instead makes the start of the game even more boring. 

 

They should go for nerfing ciphers at the endgame instead of making them so bad in the beginning that no one wants to play them as a main character. 

 

Infact you are better served making a custom companion very late in the game that is a cipher.

 

And I dont understand the people who are applauding the retaliation removal. Its like if its in the game you have to use it ( but you really dont ). But you have to remember this is a singleplayer game, I dont understand the need for such balance when the user of the game could just aswell completely ignore it if they wanted a harder time in the game. 

 

Infact all those people who wants retaliation gone or nerfed should just make a wizard with all offensive spells and only use 2 daggers for close combat and then complete the game solo on iron mode / path of the damned. 

 

See what I did there I just made the game so hard you couldnt even begin to beat it and I did it without removing anything from the game....

 

And ofcourse people will find easier ways to beat the game without the ciphers or retaliation and if this is any indication Obsidian will proceed to nerf that into the ground also. 

 

And a last question will you remove the achievement for those who completed the game savescumming iron mode or ...... no didnt think so....

 

Stop trying to balance a singleplayer game as an MMO or you will alienate your customer base. 

 

 

[Raven Darkholme]

Cipher still has better spell access if you don't want to spam rest. Also cipher pre 1.05 was absurdly good, the nerf to their starting focus of all things didn't make the class useless.

[doctoruniverse]

Cipher still has better spell access if you don't want to spam rest. Also cipher pre 1.05 was absurdly good, the nerf to their starting focus of all things didn't make the class useless.

 

But it did make them useless/boring in the beginning of the game, while almost not hurting them in the mid to late game where they should have been nerfed. Try reading my post next time. 

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Cipher still has better spell access if you don't want to spam rest. Also cipher pre 1.05 was absurdly good, the nerf to their starting focus of all things didn't make the class useless.

 

 

But it did make them useless/boring in the beginning of the game, while almost not hurting them in the mid to late game where they should have been nerfed. Try reading my post next time.

I read your post, don't worry.

[mazeltov]

The caster nerfings will continue until morale balance has improved. Er, except for the Wiz overbuff, presumably that will be tweaked eventually.

 

Solo achievements and "challenge modes" are JSaw's way to get dedicated cheesers to find anomalies in the game for him, so he can quash them over time. It's working splendidly so far.

 

 

 

 

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[b0rsuk]

I think obsidian might have made a mistake on the nerf to ciphers. 

 

Im talking about their starting focus of 1/4 instead of 1/2 which I believe was totally unneccesary.

 

Infact that change only made it so that ciphers basicly has to go with the blunderbuss or melee fire retal build. 

 

Focus generation is no longer +X points per hit. It's +30% weapon damage.

[Luckmann]

Unnecessary? Maybe. There's a potential argument in there that it should be 1/3rd, not 1/4th, I think.

Totally unnecessary? No. Ciphers are crazy in every single way.

That being said, I think that they should stop staring themselves blind at class balances and take a look at actual content, instead, or go ahead and fix the Attribute Bonuses instead of constantly screwing with the CNPC:s in ways that makes no sense.

[abaris]

 

Cipher still has better spell access if you don't want to spam rest. Also cipher pre 1.05 was absurdly good, the nerf to their starting focus of all things didn't make the class useless.

 

But it did make them useless/boring in the beginning of the game, while almost not hurting them in the mid to late game where they should have been nerfed. Try reading my post next time. 

 

 

Right, pretty useless you say. Cypher level 3, patch 1.05 beta. 55 enemies killed out of a total of 110, highest total damage of 1600, highest individual damage of 56.

 

Have you actually tried the new specs or are you just talking. I gave her a hunting bow and she ups her focus within seconds of each encounter.

Edited May 5, 2015 by abaris

[Akimbo]

Don't really understand Ciphers. They're really OP and Obsidian decided to buff their health? The focus nerf wasn't significant past the first few levels.

[KDubya]

With the new starting focus at early levels worst case you'd have to shoot once and then start casting. This does not sound like a problem.

 

Before, at higher levels, you could blast out enough that a typical trash encounter would be nuked before you'd ever have to generate focus. Difficult fights always required that you generate focus. The new lower starting focus will just mean that in trash fights you might need to generate focus.

 

I am not sure how the change from focus per hit to % based will affect focus generation. If it makes something other than blunderbuss effective that would be nice.

 

Ciphers will still be the masters of outputting their best spells in every encounter without needing to hold back for some future tough fight. They will still be the best support for setting up a rogue for sneak attacks. The increased endurance and health combined with the new % based focus generation might open up more opportunity for melee ciphers.

[NathanH]

For the starting-focus nerf, I have a suspicion that the fundamental reason people were finding Ciphers ridiculously strong is that major Afflictions apply on grazes, and even with short durations are very powerful. If I'm right, this is just going to be a constant problem with casters in general, and it's only that Ciphers were best-placed to take advantage of it that they look so strong. These sorts of balance changes are likely to only scratch around the edges of this problem. Indeed, I don't see my low-level Cipher play changing that much. A good patch that balanced Ciphers would nerf their most powerful attacks without nerfing less powerful ones. The change to their starting focus doesn't really do this. Ciphers will be weaker, but I'll be casting the same spells with them.

 

The blunderbuss nerf is a good idea, because it does achieve such a thing. The most powerful focus-generating attack has been toned down, and less powerful focus-generating attacks have been improved.

[mazeltov]

major Afflictions apply on grazes, and even with short durations are very powerful. If I'm right, this is just going to be a constant problem with casters in general, and it's only that Ciphers were best-placed to take advantage of it that they look so strong. These sorts of balance changes are likely to only scratch around the edges of this problem.

 

This fact is only slowly dawning on the devs. That said an incremental approach to fixing things is probably best. Change a few moving parts at a time, see what happens. Change a few more next time, and go from there.

[MadDemiurg]

I don't know where the idea of afflictions not working on grazes really comes from. PoE is very generous with having grazes in the first place, in D&D if you make the roll you hit, period. And some abilities do 1/2 of their original effect even on a miss. +/- 50% on crit/graze works just fine IMO.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Unnecessary? Maybe. There's a potential argument in there that it should be 1/3rd, not 1/4th, I think.

 

Totally unnecessary? No. Ciphers are crazy in every single way.

 

That being said, I think that they should stop staring themselves blind at class balances and take a look at actual content, instead, or go ahead and fix the Attribute Bonuses instead of constantly screwing with the CNPC:s in ways that makes no sense.

Yeah, I think Soul Whip shouldn't have an innate damage bonus(take the talent for that) and I agree that adjusting starting focus is a good move. Powers could use some tweaking as well, as it is some are nobrainers while others are crap. Definitely agree about attributes. IMo Perception should boost accuracy and Resolve duration. As it currently is, those stats are the easiest to dump and intelligence is OP for AoE and duration builds because it kills two birds with one stone.

 

IMO, equipment needs to be better balanced as well. Armor in particular is badly balanced and while weapons are balanced well in theory, the lack of low DT enemies makes using light weapons suboptimal. I think adding in speed bonuses to quality enchantments would make armor better, as well as changing the base DT values and recovery penalties.

 

As to spell balance, lesser effects on grazes instead of reduced duration would be a good move, especially with dominate and petrify.

[MadDemiurg]

I think caster classes (with the exception of Chanter and Cipher) are impossible to balance with the rest system being broken. I think they should either fix rest before even trying to balance casters in regards to their capabilities compared to non casters or just forget about it and leave it as is. I'm also not a big fan of one button classes and not sure non casters should've been implemented this way in the first place.

 

If resting is not limited, everyone will cry that casters are OP because they have more powerful abilities. And if these are nerfed to match the awesomeness of fighter's knockdown and the like everyone will cry that casters are UP because they need to rest. To be fair I prefer the first situation (since no one's forcing you to abuse rest, while you'll pretty much have to in case #2).

 

As for Cipher, I think the class needed nerfs, but not the ones implemented (draining whip change is the only one I somewhat agree with). Starting focus change just makes the class dynamic more boring. I won't post the nerfs that I think are necessary though, because who knows who will read and misinterpret this :D.

 

I also think that making classes more fun to play rather than obsessing over balance would be a good idea. E. g. I want to play a fun shapeshifter class or a pet class, but with the sorry state of druid's shapeshift or ranger as a whole I can't.

Edited May 5, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[the streaker]

Since when do people complain that casters in IE games are overpowered? Most of the complaints here were that ciphers were stronger than other casters...

[MadDemiurg]

Since when do people complain that casters in IE games are overpowered? Most of the complaints here were that ciphers were stronger than other casters...

Since BG2? Never played BG1 so not sure about that one. The only D&D edition where casters are not overpowered is the 4th (which would make a pretty solid cRPG foundation tbh, with all classes having their at will, per encounter and per rest abilities).

 

The part about ciphers being stronger than other casters in PoE is not really true either, partially due to the aforementioned issues with the rest system.

Edited May 5, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Kaigen42]

Since BG2? Never played BG1 so not sure about that one. The only D&D edition where casters are not overpowered is the 4th (which would make a pretty solid cRPG foundation tbh, with all classes having their at will, per encounter and per rest abilities).

 

As an aside, I find the fact that we never got a proper turn-based CRPG with the 4e system (and probably never will at this rate) to be one of the biggest missed opportunities in CRPGs.

 

Slightly more on topic, maybe the changes to Cipher focus will make the focus-boosting amulets slightly more attractive options. Has anyone found a guaranteed spot to pick up a Talisman of the Unconquerable?

[abaris]

 

Slightly more on topic, maybe the changes to Cipher focus will make the focus-boosting amulets slightly more attractive options. Has anyone found a guaranteed spot to pick up a Talisman of the Unconquerable?

 

 

I found one in the tomb leading to the assembly in the catacombs. It was the first one ever. Didn't even know something like that existed, since normally I only find the usual junk in masses.

[Kaigen42]

 

 

Slightly more on topic, maybe the changes to Cipher focus will make the focus-boosting amulets slightly more attractive options. Has anyone found a guaranteed spot to pick up a Talisman of the Unconquerable?

 

 

I found one in the tomb leading to the assembly in the catacombs. It was the first one ever. Didn't even know something like that existed, since normally I only find the usual junk in masses.

 

 

A random drop, then. Do you by any chance remember what in-game day in looted it on? Be sure to clarify whether you're talking about the day that shows up on the saved game or the calendar date.

[mazeltov]

The only D&D edition where casters are not overpowered is the 4th (which would make a pretty solid cRPG foundation tbh, with all classes having their at will, per encounter and per rest abilities).

 

Which is why there was much said about Balance Man's supposed fondness for 4e during the backer beta, and how that system had more influence on PoE's design than something atrocious like BG2's 2e.

[Manty5]

I think a lot of the nerfing could have been avoided or work even better if you just make mental binding a T3 spell.

[grasida]

I like the starting focus reduction. It means the cipher has to play more as a fighter/mage than as a straight caster. I'm playing on hard with a dual wield melee cipher with Eder and the four caster companions and I like that I have to spend time hitting enemies in melee. Focus gain is not an issue at all. I use my starting focus for mental binding or body attunement, then manage a mind lance about every third attack, and I attack very fast. I don't feel like my ciphers are overpowered in comparison to the wizard, priest or druid. Sure, they're very consistent and can use their abilities every fight. But when things get serious and my other casters start tossing around all their spells with abandon, I think they outdo the ciphers in terms of damage and control, especially now that I'm getting some of the higher level spells.

[the streaker]

 

Since when do people complain that casters in IE games are overpowered? Most of the complaints here were that ciphers were stronger than other casters...

 

Since BG2? Never played BG1 so not sure about that one. The only D&D edition where casters are not overpowered is the 4th (which would make a pretty solid cRPG foundation tbh, with all classes having their at will, per encounter and per rest abilities).

 

The part about ciphers being stronger than other casters in PoE is not really true either, partially due to the aforementioned issues with the rest system.

Yes it is well accepted that magic is stronger than might. Nobody really debates this, unless you're trying to stir up a 30 year old debate that has been beaten to death a thousand times over. Ciphers are actually stronger than casters for most of the game.

[Sanctuary]

The caster nerfings will continue until morale balance has improved. Er, except for the Wiz overbuff, presumably that will be tweaked eventually.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFL1-fL-WtM 

Edited May 6, 2015 by Sanctuary