Men killed outside Art Exhibition in Dallas

[Walsingham]

To put this inflammatory cartooning in context:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-32579910

 

I find kidnapping young girls and systematically raping them to be offensive.

 

I'm not sure we've got the two sides of this debate balanced, tbh.

[Elerond]

" What is the message the art exhibition is trying to get across " in your opinion ?

 

I can't be sure in this particular case, because I haven't seen any actual art from this exhibition, but usually in these cases people just try make things that they think people will find offensive and some better ones try to put them in form of political satire or social commentary, but as general these kind exhibitions try to cause outrage in some subsection of people who exhibition organizers don't like. Because by doing so they get press time for their opinions and world view that they wouldn't get otherwise.

[Hurlshort]

I'm pretty sure you guys are getting trolled by Bruce.  

 

The American Freedom Defense Initiative is super gross.  But this is a free country, people are allowed to be stupid.  I am thankful that the attack was apparently carried out by extras from the movie The Four Lions.

[Elerond]

To put this inflammatory cartooning in context:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-32579910

 

I find kidnapping young girls and systematically raping them to be offensive.

 

I'm not sure we've got the two sides of this debate balanced, tbh.

 

When we speak organizations like Boko Haram, we should not forgot that we had quite lot bad people in our countries, although our government and peace keeping organizations usually can keep it so that such people don't get parts of country fully under their control, like they have done in some parts of world.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-19984615

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/organized-crime-and-human-trafficking/trafficking-in-human-beings/index_en.htm

[Elerond]

I'm pretty sure you guys are getting trolled by Bruce.  

 

 

Yes but it don't mean that topic is not worth to talk nevertheless

[mkreku]

****, I'm glad this mother****ing board supports free speech, since that's so ****ing important to all Americans.

[Chilloutman]

Yes Stoning is still used in some countries, I think it is an appalling and inhuman way to implement the death penalty

 

There are other way to kill people that are much more humane so I don't support or sympathize with it 

 

But this is not the same thing as me  saying "I respect the wishes  of Muslims when they ask I don't create images of the Prophet  "  ?

 

 

Bruce, finely get it right, there is only one freedom of speech. There might be topics which are more 'hot' than others, it doesnt mean they dont deserve same protection. I think you are touchy because today someone is trying to portrait it as attack on muslims. Its not the case. For example confucionism (do I get it spelled properly?) is just cast system. If there would be same caricature gallery about confucionism cast system and someone try to bomb it I would say same things I am saying now.

[BruceVC]

To put this inflammatory cartooning in context:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-32579910

 

I find kidnapping young girls and systematically raping them to be offensive.

 

I'm not sure we've got the two sides of this debate balanced, tbh.

 

No we don't have the two sides balanced  

 

I don't think there is a single person on these forums who doesn't think that Boko Haram is a reprehensible and anachronistic organisation that deserves to be annihilated , I started the original thread condemning them and there actions

 

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66161-boko-haram-and-the-kidnpping-of-the-school-girls/?hl=%2Bboko+%2Bharam

 

But I fail to see why we can't be aware of things that basically offend the entire global  Muslim community, and this is no excuse for acts of violence,  and also unequivocally condemn  the likes of Boko Haram? 

 

I don't see the connection between the two?

[BruceVC]

 

I'm pretty sure you guys are getting trolled by Bruce.  

 

 

Yes but it don't mean that topic is not worth to talk nevertheless

 

 

Remember the definition of Trolling on these forums for some people is when someone makes a point you don't like, agree with or just don't understand 

 

I am not Trolling, I stand by my points on this topic. I may be wrong thats not the same thing as trolling 

[Chilloutman]

 

To put this inflammatory cartooning in context:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-32579910

 

I find kidnapping young girls and systematically raping them to be offensive.

 

I'm not sure we've got the two sides of this debate balanced, tbh.

 

No we don't have the two sides balanced  

 

I don't think there is a single person on these forums who doesn't think that Boko Haram is a reprehensible and anachronistic organisation that deserves to be annihilated , I started the original thread condemning them and there actions

 

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66161-boko-haram-and-the-kidnpping-of-the-school-girls/?hl=%2Bboko+%2Bharam

 

But I fail to see why we can't be aware of things that basically offend the entire global  Muslim community, and this is no excuse for acts of violence,  and also unequivocally condemn  the likes of Boko Haram? 

 

I don't see the connection between the two?

 

 

Well the connection is that we are not cutting heads of muslims in our western society because of some Boko Haram muslim representatives

[Chilloutman]

And when we are in it. How do you feel about those riots against imigrants in JAR?

[BruceVC]

 

" What is the message the art exhibition is trying to get across " in your opinion ?

 

I can't be sure in this particular case, because I haven't seen any actual art from this exhibition, but usually in these cases people just try make things that they think people will find offensive and some better ones try to put them in form of political satire or social commentary, but as general these kind exhibitions try to cause outrage in some subsection of people who exhibition organizers don't like. Because by doing so they get press time for their opinions and world view that they wouldn't get otherwise.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/05/02/sold-out-may-3rd-muhammad-art-exhibit-and-contest-in-garland-texas-photos/

 

 

Here are some of  the art exhibitions, take a look and tell me what message they are trying to express in your opinion?

[Monte Carlo]

I think most of those are infantile and offensive.

 

I sympathise with those who are offended. But their feelings are trumped by American First Amendment rights.

 

Them's the breaks.

[Chilloutman]

 

 

" What is the message the art exhibition is trying to get across " in your opinion ?

 

I can't be sure in this particular case, because I haven't seen any actual art from this exhibition, but usually in these cases people just try make things that they think people will find offensive and some better ones try to put them in form of political satire or social commentary, but as general these kind exhibitions try to cause outrage in some subsection of people who exhibition organizers don't like. Because by doing so they get press time for their opinions and world view that they wouldn't get otherwise.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/05/02/sold-out-may-3rd-muhammad-art-exhibit-and-contest-in-garland-texas-photos/

 

 

Here are some of  the art exhibitions, take a look and tell me what message they are trying to express in your opinion?

 

 

All seems ok to me, not sure what should be so offensive to kill someone for them, seen worse with Jesus

[BruceVC]

 

 

To put this inflammatory cartooning in context:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-32579910

 

I find kidnapping young girls and systematically raping them to be offensive.

 

I'm not sure we've got the two sides of this debate balanced, tbh.

 

No we don't have the two sides balanced  

 

I don't think there is a single person on these forums who doesn't think that Boko Haram is a reprehensible and anachronistic organisation that deserves to be annihilated , I started the original thread condemning them and there actions

 

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66161-boko-haram-and-the-kidnpping-of-the-school-girls/?hl=%2Bboko+%2Bharam

 

But I fail to see why we can't be aware of things that basically offend the entire global  Muslim community, and this is no excuse for acts of violence,  and also unequivocally condemn  the likes of Boko Haram? 

 

I don't see the connection between the two?

 

 

Well the connection is that we are not cutting heads of muslims in our western society because of some Boko Haram muslim representatives

 

 

Why would we as Westerners want to chop-off the heads of random Muslims? We operate as  a civil, intelligent and rational society in most cases....we are nothing like the people in ISIS, Al-Shabaab and other extremist groups. 

 

So once again I fail to see the point of highlighting the actions of Boko Haram and then suggesting " well we aren't acting like that as Westerners" 

 

Of course we aren't, we hold ourselves to a higher standard

[Elerond]

 

 

I'm pretty sure you guys are getting trolled by Bruce.  

 

 

Yes but it don't mean that topic is not worth to talk nevertheless

 

 

Remember the definition of Trolling on these forums for some people is when someone makes a point you don't like, agree with or just don't understand 

 

I am not Trolling, I stand by my points on this topic. I may be wrong thats not the same thing as trolling 

 

 

I took it more that you try get people give their reactions, opinions, objections, etc. for the topic without actually giving your view point for the topic. In other words fishing reactions, which is something that is at least past considered as trolling. Trolling isn't inherently bad, even though it meaning and how people react towards it is changed quite lot in past two decades, as now internet troll seems to mean criminal, people that are offensive towards other members of forum/social media/etc..  

 

Internet vocabulary expands and evolves so fast that it is nearly impossible to keep up with it. 

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

To put this inflammatory cartooning in context:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-32579910

 

I find kidnapping young girls and systematically raping them to be offensive.

 

I'm not sure we've got the two sides of this debate balanced, tbh.

 

No we don't have the two sides balanced  

 

I don't think there is a single person on these forums who doesn't think that Boko Haram is a reprehensible and anachronistic organisation that deserves to be annihilated , I started the original thread condemning them and there actions

 

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66161-boko-haram-and-the-kidnpping-of-the-school-girls/?hl=%2Bboko+%2Bharam

 

But I fail to see why we can't be aware of things that basically offend the entire global  Muslim community, and this is no excuse for acts of violence,  and also unequivocally condemn  the likes of Boko Haram? 

 

I don't see the connection between the two?

 

 

Well the connection is that we are not cutting heads of muslims in our western society because of some Boko Haram muslim representatives

 

 

Why would we as Westerners want to chop-off the heads of random Muslims? We operate as  a civil, intelligent and rational society in most cases....we are nothing like the people in ISIS, Al-Shabaab and other extremist groups. 

 

So once again I fail to see the point of highlighting the actions of Boko Haram and then suggesting " well we aren't acting like that as Westerners" 

 

Of course we aren't, we hold ourselves to a higher standard

 

 

Because random muslims doing the same to others? Stoning is not somthing happening only to Boko Haram, same as most other law practises in muslim countries. I dont like that media picture that only 'radical muslims' doing bad (from our perspective) things. Here where I live official head of Musil comunity stated that he agree with stoning adn that even in Bible we have 'who is without guild. first throw the stone' which was hilariouse because its prety much opposing to stoning

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure you guys are getting trolled by Bruce.  

 

 

Yes but it don't mean that topic is not worth to talk nevertheless

 

 

Remember the definition of Trolling on these forums for some people is when someone makes a point you don't like, agree with or just don't understand 

 

I am not Trolling, I stand by my points on this topic. I may be wrong thats not the same thing as trolling 

 

 

I took it more that you try get people give their reactions, opinions, objections, etc. for the topic without actually giving your view point for the topic. In other words fishing reactions, which is something that is at least past considered as trolling. Trolling isn't inherently bad, even though it meaning and how people react towards it is changed quite lot in past two decades, as now internet troll seems to mean criminal, people that are offensive towards other members of forum/social media/etc..  

 

Internet vocabulary expands and evolves so fast that it is nearly impossible to keep up with it. 

 

 

Okay maybe, I never thought of Trolling like that before. I see Trolling as a negative thing where people make a point just to get a emotional reaction and have no intention of really debating the issue

 

And in this case I have stated my own opinion but I am still interested in what others have to say 

Edited May 4, 2015 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure you guys are getting trolled by Bruce.  

 

 

Yes but it don't mean that topic is not worth to talk nevertheless

 

 

Remember the definition of Trolling on these forums for some people is when someone makes a point you don't like, agree with or just don't understand 

 

I am not Trolling, I stand by my points on this topic. I may be wrong thats not the same thing as trolling 

 

 

I took it more that you try get people give their reactions, opinions, objections, etc. for the topic without actually giving your view point for the topic. In other words fishing reactions, which is something that is at least past considered as trolling. Trolling isn't inherently bad, even though it meaning and how people react towards it is changed quite lot in past two decades, as now internet troll seems to mean criminal, people that are offensive towards other members of forum/social media/etc..  

 

Internet vocabulary expands and evolves so fast that it is nearly impossible to keep up with it. 

 

 

Okay maybe, I never thought of Trolling like that before. I see Trolling as a negative thing where people make a point just to get a emotional reaction and have no intention of really debating the issue

 

And in this case I have stated my own opinion but I am still interested in what others have to say 

 

 

Getting people mad by making outrageous claims is probably what is caused trolling become synonym to all bad behavior in the internet. But when I started use internet forums in middle of 90s trolling was usually used in reference of people starting topics asking opinions of something without actually giving clear indication what they think it themself and after initial reactions they offer partial version of their opinion to get people continue and so on and so forth. So something like what interviewer would do in focus group interview, but because people haven't consented such they start to feel that they are played or in other words trolled.

[kgambit]

Bruce, don't you see an inherent contradiction of your stance on this issue and your previous statements regarding censorship and the use / threat of violence?

 

For example, this quote from another thread ....

 

...the point being the threat of violence has impacted someone saying what they want to say...we should be condemning this

 

 

Why is this instance different?  I am genuinely curious as to why you think this situation is unique.

Edited May 4, 2015 by kgambit

[Ineth]

So here is my question, we know these types of events are legal in the USA despite being offensive to most Muslims...so why have them?

 

It is not up to "us" (a.k.a. society) to decide which art is necessary or worthwhile.

 

Artists can make whatever art they want for their own reasons; it's called freedom of expression.

[Hurlshort]

****, I'm glad this mother****ing board supports free speech, since that's so ****ing important to all Americans.

 

You don't seem to really understand how free speech works.  Obsidian is free to run their message board however they like.  The government is not going to stop in and tell them what they can and cannot say.  If swearing is really important to you, you are free to make your own forum. 

 

I recommend something from the Swedish Chef.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Hurlshot

[Ineth]

The thing is that you cannot make exceptions for one religion and its symbols and beliefs

 

This should sound obvious to every sane person, but beware that a growing movement on the political left demands just that: Making special exceptions for Islam.

 

Just look at the recent idiotic manifesto of 145 "PEN America" authors protesting against Charlie Hebdo being given a "Courage in Free Speech" award.

Aside from truly disgusting attempts to downplay/erase the murder using verbal sleigh-of-hand, you know what the core argument of their statement was?

That Charlie Hebdo's work was bad because it criticized all religions equally harshly.

 

I'm not making this up. That's really what their criticism boiled down to. In their opinion, proper "progressive" cartoonists worthy of an award would have cut Islam a lot more slack than the other religions. Because reasons¹.

 

So yeah, it may be obvious to you and me that a liberal democratic society should have the same rules for all religions, but unfortunately it's a position that is very much in need of being defended against political and social campaigns by moronic progressives.

 

-----

¹⁾ involving silly progressive "oppression olympics"

[BruceVC]

Bruce, don't you see an inherent contradiction of your stance on this issue and your previous statements regarding censorship and the use / threat of violence?

 

For example, this quote from another thread ....

 

...the point being the threat of violence has impacted someone saying what they want to say...we should be condemning this

 

 

Why is this instance different?  I am genuinely curious as to why you think this situation is unique.

 

I'll gladly answer, it should be clear by now that the GG thread is not about serious debate..people just want to defend or attack SJ  causes without logic or reason

 

So please don't quote anything I say on that thread because everything people say on that thread needs context

 

That comment I made that you quoted was more to see if people would condemn the fact that Anita couldn't make some speech due to a threat of violence...yet when the GG conference was disrupted by  bomb hoax(  a threat of violence ) people were outraged. I see this is as inconsistent. But lets not discuss anything GG related outside of that thread, it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth

 

So back to this debate and something more relevant. I never said or suggested that I sympathize with the act of violence perpetuated by Islamic extremists, I said I can understand why Muslims believe that images of the Prophet are offensive..its considered blasphemy to them. So why provoke them with this type of exhibition?

 

I hope you have time to reply because I appreciate your perspective on matters  

[BruceVC]

 

So here is my question, we know these types of events are legal in the USA despite being offensive to most Muslims...so why have them?

 

It is not up to "us" (a.k.a. society) to decide which art is necessary or worthwhile.

 

Artists can make whatever art they want for their own reasons; it's called freedom of expression.

 

Absolutely they can..and no one is questioning what freedom of expression means

 

But this also doesn't help when we ask questions like " how can we integrate the Muslim community into Western society in a way that works for everyone " if we refuse to at least accept that Muslims consider images of the Prophet fundamentally prohibited ?

 

We don't allow many traditions or aspects of Muslim culture in Western countries if we consider them illegal or contrary to basic human rights, things like forced marriages, honor killings  or genital mutilation. We also respect and protect  the sexual orientation of people. So its not like in the West we are giving up our culture or way of life because of the Islamization of our countries...we aren't and we aren't going to and thats not going to change

 

But come on... we can reasonable and not support images of the Prophet in some art exhibition which IMO was just done to insight the Muslim community ?

Edited May 4, 2015 by BruceVC