Petition to buff spiritshift to scale properly throughout the whole game (and discussion how to do it)

[mwinding]

I played a druid for my pc and thought shapeshift was useful in high levels on hard. However, I did upgrade all the shapeshift relevant talents to up damage etc.

 

I didn't vote btw, the poll question is ridiculous. The OP definitely has an agenda with such a biased poll.

[MadDemiurg]

Suggestions of me having an "agenda" are a bit ridiculous, especially in context of a gaming forum poll. I would add an option: "No, I'm fine with spiritshift as it is", but I'm no longer able to edit the poll. I didn't even think about it when creating the poll as I thought its common consensus that it's broken atm and the only question is wheter to make it decent or keep it as a gimmick.

 

I've made a druid with spiritshift talents too initially, but quickly rerolled realising how bad this decision was. You can use it on high levels of course, but it's nowhere near as good as anything made with a little bit of thought. In fact, a druid dualwielding enchanted exceptional weapons would do more damage than shifted at high levels, talents or not. I could do a spreadsheet to illustrate this, but its pretty obvious from the stats.

 

I would be ok with the shift disabling casting if it did its job (making Druid better in melee).

Edited May 19, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[peddroelm]

From the quick glance I've took towards the druid shapeshift - my conclusion was their weapon base damage was enourmous, but unfortunately there were no melee damage skills to build on it and the accuracy was absolutely crap (biggest issue by far - unarmed weapon focus + paladin aura and you run out of options) ...  Second issue was the short duration of the actual transformation - why invest in this not so powerfull thing that will only last a very short time out of each combat ? What happens when it expires ? You cannot change gear during combat ..

Didn't check on attack speed - I'm assuming nothing earthshaking there either since nobody is bringing it up ..

 

Seems rushed ..

Edited May 19, 2015 by peddroelm

[MadDemiurg]

Yep, that's pretty much my summary in the first post - initial damage way too high, but no scaling (although current damage numbers would be good for lvl 12 tbh), and also no accuracy scaling(monk fists get this at least), no enchantments (you can add lash by wasting a talent on wildstrike), no bonuses form the majority of items (thus inferior survivability/utility) and duration too short to consider any investments (shifting talents are on the same level of crappiness as barb's greater frenzy).

Edited May 19, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[JONNIN]

I would be satisified with it lasting for the entire combat without any changes.   I would even take a talent to add +2 shifts / combat as an alternative but druids don't get a lot of talents to spare... that would be rough.   I would take having it extend say 2, maybe 3 second per level.  

 

Other buffs I would not turn down, but one of those would be my choice to improve the class.  15 seconds just is nothing at all...

[Arkh`Cthuul]

How about a radical idea...

 

Everytime a druid levels up, he would have to make a choise whether to improve his connection to the elements & nature (learning new spells) or improve his connection to his animal side (improve spiritshif form and melee abilities).

 

So you could focus on becoming a traditional druid caster or some kind of spirit shifter fighter type or something in between?

 

That would be the best Solution lore/RP-wise, yes.

I doubt it`ll come to that, but I would very much prefer this path.

 

On general: I agree with the OP: Spiritforms need (a little to mediocre) nerf early on and scaling increases during levelups, eventually with some more (good) Shapechanger feats.

 

If it was up to me I`d make the form at will, scratch casting while changed (or at least limit it, but scratching is easier) with some feats to differentiate them.

 

 

For example: Civilized Spiritform: All non-armor-non-weapon-item-bonuses work while shifted.

vs.

Primal Spirit-Form: No Item Bonuses at all, including no use of food/Potions, work while shifted, but Might, Accuracy and Damage receive a Bonus (say +10-20%ish?) and you regenerate 1% of Endurance per 3 Seconds.

 

As well as feats improving the (hopefully a bit more different) unique Form Bonuses.

 

As is the Spiritform seems like an afterthought, like "Oh, we forgot to add Shapshifting, lets make some forms, and be done with it".

Which is a shame, really.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Arkh`Cthuul

[MadDemiurg]

Actually the amount of work put into different models, abilities and vfx for the forms is probably bigger than that what was put into some other classes as a whole. So it's really a shame it doesn't get any real screen time.

[manageri]

It's hopeless. There's nothing they can do to make mauling stuff more attractive than keeping casting those sweet druid spells at high levels, especially thanks to level 9 and per encounter mojo. Not without buffing spiritshift so much it makes all other melee classes obsolete that is. The class simply needs a redesign so the shifting is a vital part of how it plays, like how causing weapon damage is vital to ciphers. I'm fully on board with some of the suggested level scaling etc, but let's be honest, that will not make you send the druid in to maul the big bad bosses when you can be casting instead (and the viability of things is not measured in how quickly they shred a bunch of xaurips, it's the tough fights that count).

[MadDemiurg]

I'd be satisfied if it was a decent spell economy tool, allowing you to do some damage without burning your slots. Its value would of course diminish after level 9, but it would be much better than it is now. Essentially something comparable to parasitic staff in terms of power by level 9 (which is per encounter for level 9 wizards), with some talents to improve it if you want it on top.

Edited May 20, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Gorth]

Thread pruned a bit. Lets try a few more skill points in "Diplomacy"...

[Chucky]

I started as a Druid, too, because I thought shapeshifting could be a fun tool. Didn't play beyond level 4 so far, due to time and some bugs that I wanted to wait out. But I can already see it falling down, because the miss chance is pretty high indeed. My Druid can't tackle most of the stronger enemys without heavy spellcasting.. Life is draining really quick, too, so most of the time she stays back with my wizard

 

So, I voted yes, at least a minor buff to the lategame or some more talents for the shapeshift would be nice Druid is really strong on the spellcasting front, though, so I might stick with it anyways.

[the streaker]

I've been dicking around with the druid, because I like them, and the shapeshifting isn't too bad if you look at it as secondary to the spells. Throw an insect plague, activate the storm spells, then go inside for some melee while everything else does its work. The accuracy is no worse than your druid sitting behind shooting a bow, and the damage is much better. Not for those battles where you're going to empty your spell repertoire like a maniac.

Edited May 22, 2015 by the streaker

[manageri]

I've been dicking around with the druid, because I like them, and the shapeshifting isn't too bad if you look at it as secondary to the spells. Throw an insect plague, activate the storm spells, then go inside for some melee while everything else does its work. The accuracy is no worse than your druid sitting behind shooting a bow, and the damage is much better. Not for those battles where you're going to empty your spell repertoire like a maniac.

 

Which is exactly what's wrong with it. If it (whatever it is) does not help you in the most difficult fights, it's worthless. Why the hell would you spec your characters based on what works for the easy encounters? Newsflash: you're gonna win those fights anyway. The only balance discussions worth having are ones that discuss your chances of winning against the difficult ****. Is spiritshifting remotely viable in difficult fights? No, spells are 5 timer better at least. Therefore spiritshifting sucks. End of analysis. Spiritshifting will never be viable with the current version of druids who are full spellcasters and do not need to shift in order to access their most powerful ****. It's a gimmick and that's it.

[MadDemiurg]

I've been dicking around with the druid, because I like them, and the shapeshifting isn't too bad if you look at it as secondary to the spells. Throw an insect plague, activate the storm spells, then go inside for some melee while everything else does its work. The accuracy is no worse than your druid sitting behind shooting a bow, and the damage is much better. Not for those battles where you're going to empty your spell repertoire like a maniac.

The accuracy is actually 12 lower compared to a superb bow. Damage is great though (but the duration is very short and you miss often).

[the streaker]

 

I've been dicking around with the druid, because I like them, and the shapeshifting isn't too bad if you look at it as secondary to the spells. Throw an insect plague, activate the storm spells, then go inside for some melee while everything else does its work. The accuracy is no worse than your druid sitting behind shooting a bow, and the damage is much better. Not for those battles where you're going to empty your spell repertoire like a maniac.

The accuracy is actually 12 lower compared to a superb bow. Damage is great though (but the duration is very short and you miss often).

 

 

Yeah I'm not sure why I said that, it's actually closer to 22 lower, since a good shooter/mage probably is an elf with marksman talent. So it def needs an accuracy buff.

[HoopleDoople]

I've been playing with a Druid PC and I quite enjoy it, though it certainly hasn't matched my expectations. Rather than a tactically flexible class that can use Spiritshift to go from caster to melee brawler, the Druid plays pretty much like an offensively focused Wizard from BG2. Sitting back behind your party and nuking everything is plenty neat and effective, but I still feel an opportunity was missed with the Druid.

 

If I were to design the Druid from scratch I'd build it around three ability groups: shapeshifting, summoning, and weather/nature control. I would also make channeling a central concept. The strongest abilities would require channeling and thus only one could be in use at a time.

 

Shapeshifting

 

The Druid would have access to multiple forms that they could switch between at will. Switching forms would have a delay for transformation before the Druid could act again. The Druid could stay Shapeshifted indefinitely while in combat, but all Shapeshifts would count as being channeled. Due to the focus needed to maintain the form a Druid would only be able to cast minor spells in this form. Additional forms could be learned by leveling, quests, or even equipped items; the specific method is less important than the Druid gaining access to more options as the game progresses.

 

To differentiate Shapeshifts each would provide different stat bonuses/penalties, different damage/attack speed, and different DT/defenses. Each Shapeshift form would have a per encounter special ability as well; note that using the ability in one form would deplete the ability for all forms. Another feature would be that while Shapeshifted endurance damage would result in a lower amount of health damage. When Shapeshifted weapon and armor slot items would be ignored but all other gear would apply.

 

Summoning

 

Druid summoning would not be of the conjuration variety, but rather calling animals in to aid the Druid. Summoning would still function like a spell, however, having a cast duration and being limited per rest. Lesser summons would function more like an ability than a summon - they'd perform whatever action they were called to do and then leave. Thus enemies would not be able to engage or be engaged by lesser summons. Greater summons would be your standard summons that stick around for the fight and can be controlled, exiting the fight only once dismissed or slain. Greater summons would count as channeled and thus only one (or one group, in the case of insects for example) could be summoned at a time and could not be combined with other channeling abilities.

 

Weather/Nature Control

 

This group of abilities would be the most similar to what the Druid currently excels at. Manipulation of winds, water, lightning, plants, etc. Basically anything not animal related could be grouped here. These would all be cast as spells. Weaker abilities would hit and then immediately dissipate, other than whatever small debuff they might apply. Stronger abilities would be persistent for a duration but would require channeling. Overall these abilities would be weaker than the current Druid ones as the Druid would have many more options and be focused on flexibility rather than simply AoE nukes.

 

Obviously the Druid isn't going to be redesigned from scratch, but some of these ideas can be applied to improve Spiritshifting. I would definitely like to see Spiritshift abilities as per encounter rather than per rest. Greater differentiation between the forms would be nice as would passing along less endurance damage to health. Allowing bonuses from certain item slots to still apply while Spiritshifted is also called for. Finally, I would love to see additional forms be available through talents.

[MadDemiurg]

1.06 Seems to solve a lot of the Paladin issues. I hope they'll focus on Druid or Ranger in the next patch.

[Exoduss]

I hope they stop releasing patches with 10 changes every week , and release something like 1.05 every 2 months 

[sims796]

Signed. Totally signed.