Why is Game Audio 32khz?

[Shardnax]

The title is the problem. I double checked to make sure the patch wasn't the issue and it isn't. Is there any chance this could be remedied with a patch or making higher quality files available for download optionally? It would be nice if the bitrate could be bumped up as well, particularly on the VO audio. I'd rather have full range tracks and eat more space than not .

 

Edit: I have the GOG version, if that's of any relevance.

 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Shardnax

[AndreaColombo]

32Khz is already higher than 22Khz so I don't get what exactly you're asking for?

 

380kbps is also decent for a lossy format; the best mp3 are 320kbps and mp3 has a worse compression algorithm than ogg to boot.

[LeonKowalski]

It's a strange decision for sure ... but hey, their audience is old  BG players right? None of us can hear anything over 15 kHz any way

[Elerond]

32Khz is already higher than 22Khz so I don't get what exactly you're asking for?

 

380kbps is also decent for a lossy format; the best mp3 are 320kbps and mp3 has a worse compression algorithm than ogg to boot.

 

You need double sample rate to record audio frequency that you want, so with 32kHz sample rate you can max record 16kHz sounds, and you need 44kHz sample rate to record 22kHz sounds.

 

Although most people aren't able to really tell difference between 16kHz and 22kHz sounds, especially with audio devices that they have plugged in their computers and when we speak about lozzy audio codecs like vorbis.

[Shardnax]

32Khz is already higher than 22Khz so I don't get what exactly you're asking for?

 

380kbps is also decent for a lossy format; the best mp3 are 320kbps and mp3 has a worse compression algorithm than ogg to boot.

I edited my post to try and avoid further confusion. I'm asking if they'll make the full range audio available instead of the current audio which is cut off at 16khz. As for the bitrate, I don't really have a problem with it but it's confusing as to why the commentary audio is 448kbps (with a cutoff at 14khz) and VOs are only 120kbps.

 

It's a strange decision for sure ... but hey, their audience is old  BG players right? None of us can hear anything over 15 kHz any way

*leans in*

You're gonna have to speak up, sonny! It really is a weird choice, I thought we were past the days of gimped audio.

[Elerond]

 I don't really have a problem with it but it's confusing as to why the commentary audio is 448kbps (with a cutoff at 14khz) and VOs are only 120kbps.

 

Vorbis don't at default use locked bitrate, but variable bitrate and bitrate that you can see in file is average bitrate of the file, final bitrate depends on selected quality option and what kind information file contains. You can see if you look VO files that their bitrate varies quite lot there are some that are under 90kbps and some that are over 120kbps. With developer commentary they decided to go with uncompressed PCM with them, although with lower sample-rate, probably because there is not that much of it.

[Shardnax]

I missed the music and VO being variable mode, thanks for mentioning it. The lower bitrate on the VO makes sense now.

 

Edit: Now that I think about it, does vorbis even have a CBR mode? I'm dumb @__@.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Shardnax

[Justin Bell]

We had to lower the bit rate of sounds and VO to 32 and below for memory optimization and disk space reasons.  Some sounds don't actually need high sample rates and that depends on the frequency content of the source.  Something with no frequencies above 4kHz can have an 8kHz SR and still sound nearly identical to a 192kHz version of that same sound.

[agris]

We had to lower the bit rate of sounds and VO to 32 and below for memory optimization and disk space reasons.  Some sounds don't actually need high sample rates and that depends on the frequency content of the source.  Something with no frequencies above 4kHz can have an 8kHz SR and still sound nearly identical to a 192kHz version of that same sound.

Hey Justin, why not just use 44 kHz stereo VBR for the files with a large dynamic range (i.e. your music), and put that 16 kHz haircut in conjunction with VBR on the VO and other SFX?

Edited May 8, 2015 by agris

[Justin Bell]

It was a disk space saving consideration mostly.  The music is streamed and has a minimal memory cost, but we also wanted to keep the game's download size down.  32kHz helped for that reason.

[AndreaColombo]

Justin, is there a chance you would consider a high-quality audio package to be made available separately for those who don't care about disk space?

[Justin Bell]

As much as I'd love to I don't think we'd be able to do that for anything but the music unfortunately. Even then it might be difficult for us to ensure that doing so won't cause unintended consequences.  : /

[agris]

It was a disk space saving consideration mostly.  The music is streamed and has a minimal memory cost, but we also wanted to keep the game's download size down.  32kHz helped for that reason.

Ok, but I think you could get very similar disk/memory footprints with higher quality audio files using the scheme I suggested. To AndreaColombo's point, an optional higher quality audio download (especially for the music) would be a nice option. Similar to the HD textures download Bethesday provided for Skyrim. If you separated your music from you VO/SFX, you could do batch conversions on each set. The music set would be 44.1 kHz with VBR and a high quality rating, the VO/SFX at 32 kHz with a medium quality VBR.

[vv221]

Now that I think about it, does vorbis even have a CBR mode?

Yes. At least you can emulate one by fixing the lower and higher limit of VBR to the same value.

Not that anyone would want to do it of course…

[Xaratas]

If space was the main concern the question is more why ogg/vorbis and not Opus? Opus has better qualities all around.

http://opus-codec.org/comparison/

https://wiki.xiph.org/OpusFAQ

Edited May 8, 2015 by Xaratas

[vv221]

If space was the main concern the question is more why ogg/vorbis and not Opus? Opus has better qualities all around.

http://opus-codec.org/comparison/

https://wiki.xiph.org/OpusFAQ

While Opus is truly the winner option for very low bitrates, I’m not sure it beats vorbis for medium to high bitrates.

And using a single codec for music and voices was probably a better idea development-wise than using a codec for music (vorbis) and another one for voices (opus).

[Elerond]

If space was the main concern the question is more why ogg/vorbis and not Opus? Opus has better qualities all around.

http://opus-codec.org/comparison/

https://wiki.xiph.org/OpusFAQ

 

Unity has support for vorbis, but it doesn't have one for opus. So if they would want to use opus they would need to port codec themselves in the unity.

[Xaratas]

 

If space was the main concern the question is more why ogg/vorbis and not Opus? Opus has better qualities all around.

http://opus-codec.org/comparison/

https://wiki.xiph.org/OpusFAQ

 

Unity has support for vorbis, but it doesn't have one for opus. So if they would want to use opus they would need to port codec themselves in the unity.

Was also one of my thoughts. Calling libOpus should not the hardest excercise, but if you have vorbis at hand …

[Elerond]

 

 

If space was the main concern the question is more why ogg/vorbis and not Opus? Opus has better qualities all around.

http://opus-codec.org/comparison/

https://wiki.xiph.org/OpusFAQ

 

Unity has support for vorbis, but it doesn't have one for opus. So if they would want to use opus they would need to port codec themselves in the unity.

Was also one of my thoughts. Calling libOpus should not the hardest excercise, but if you have vorbis at hand …

 

 

It becomes harder when you don't have access to source behind engine's APIs, but instead you need to write separate module that you use for handling audio and make it work with engine's other APIs.