The missing piece of the game balance equation. (Time value/limit)

[SlayerDorian]

The missing piece is that there is no time limit. 

 

Story/lore reasoning:

- Currently, the big bad guy has a plan in motion.  But, rather than executing the final step as soon as possible, he just waits around for you to show up. 

- Another reason that there could be a time limit would be the whole going mad aspect that is currently way under expressed through the game.

 

It would have been nice if when you contact Thaos' soul in the sanitarium, you get a sense of something big he's planning on X date.  Perhaps even sooner.  Or, the alternative, something could give a hint as to when you're going to slip into total madness.  This would really answer that question people have kept posing, "Why am I even doing these things aside from the journal telling me to?"

 

Game balance:

Right now, there is a lot of confusion going on about camping supply limit and people wanting to rest after every battle.  The confusion stems from the camping supply limit not really holding any weight because the only real drawback to running out is that you have to go through a few loading screens to visit an inn.  The drawback is really just a user experience issue, not actual challenge.  It is easy to see why this confuses some people.

 

Others enjoy the limited rest aspect, because it adds a new layer of strategy and skill to the game experience as long as it is not quickly abused by the previously mentioned workaround.

 

Positives of having this time limit:

- The higher level strategy of completing a dungeon or travelling in the wilderness, not just meeting the challenge of individual combat encounters would be real.  Right now, it is really only there if you choose to do it because you can always go back to town and rest in the inn as many times as you want with the only cost being a few loading screens.

- PotD battles could no longer be constantly trivialised by people resting after every battle (or nearly every battle) and spamming their most powerful spells and figurine summons.  Obviously, the game is going to be stupidly easy if this is how you approach it - which ultimately ruins the experience and cheapens the whole idea of having the difficulty setting in the first place. 

- When you complete the game on hard or PotD is actually stands for something because of the item listed above.  Right now, pretty much anyone can complete the game without much effort given that approach.

- Travel time actually means something.  Right now it can be 100% ignored with no concequence.  (especially if you have 4+ athletics on your characters, which is extremely easy to obtain)

- There would be more reason to use every little trick in your book.  Food, scrolls, potions, ect.

- Managing your resources and fighting smart becomes a necessity rather than optional.

- It gives clarity to the limited camping supplies system.  It will become immediately obivous why it is in the game if spending ages traveling back and forth to the inn and dungeon actually has a downside.

- There could be an actual sense of urgency.  This is 100% lacking right now.

 

Of course, not everyone is going to want the challenge.  It should be safe to say, though, that anyone playing on hard and PotD do want challenge.  So, the time limit should at least be there.  Perhaps even normal, though this I could see going either way or just having a longer time limit.  Leave easy mode open to wasting as much time traveling around as the player wants.

 

The time limit shouldn't be ultra hard core.  Just enough to make time a valuable thing.  There would need to be some analysis to figure out how long it should be as there should be some room for heading back to town to resupply now and then - it just shouldn't a viable option to frequently do it because that negates many difficulty balance aspects of the game.

Edited April 29, 2015 by SlayerDorian

[Guest]

To be fair, this is a fairly common problem (at least it is in the games I tend to play). The most egregious example I can think of is Mass Effect. The main quest is titled, "The Race Against Time". Why am I being rewarded digging around under rocks while Saren is actively working to bring about the end of civilization? The 2nd and 3rd games throttled this way back and that "story vs game" distinction wasn't quite so blatant. This is just one example.

 

Is it a problem here? Yeah, probably. Is it even close to be unique to this game or overboard in comparison to other, more popular games? Absolutely not.

[SlayerDorian]

To be fair, this is a fairly common problem (at least it is in the games I tend to play). The most egregious example I can think of is Mass Effect. The main quest is titled, "The Race Against Time". Why am I being rewarded digging around under rocks while Saren is actively working to bring about the end of civilization? The 2nd and 3rd games throttled this way back and that "story vs game" distinction wasn't quite so blatant. This is just one example.

 

Is it a problem here? Yeah, probably. Is it even close to be unique to this game or overboard in comparison to other, more popular games? Absolutely not.

You're correct that this problem exists in other games.  However, there is something that does make it stand out in this case.  That is the limited camping supplies.  This whole system is pretty much nullified due to travel time meaning almost nothing and unlimted rests available at the inn/stronghold.  The only real cost is some loading time, which is confusing and annoying some people.

 

The issue being present in other games also begs the question, "So?"  That doesn't mean that no effort should be made to fix it here - unless that wasn't your point.

[gkathellar]

It's not a problem. Just a reality of the genre. In a game like this, an overall time limit serves mainly to constrain play style and discourage meticulousness and exploration.

 

There are games where time limits work. Usually that's because the time limit isn't just tacked on, but is a fundamental part of the game. This isn't one of them.

 

Now, maybe with a lot of thought, you could adapt PoE into something Atelier or Persona-esque (with respect to time use, anyway), using set units of time that progress based on particular actions taken). That might work. But it'd require more than just slapping on a clock and calling it a day.

[Guest]

I think the rest system is fine. If anything, it as elegant a solution to the rest-spamming problem as I can think of.

 

Again, travel time is more relevant here than in any other game I remember playing. The closest example of a better solution that comes to mind is the fuel system in ME2/3 (sorry that I keep coming back to that franchise for examples).

 

Most games allow the player to fast travel with impunity. Skyrim charges for use of the carriage system, but that becomes a non-issue the moment the player clears a dungeon (and sells the loot).

 

Your main concern seems to be that the devs didn't make sufficient effort to save players from themselves. Unfortunately, I don't think any dev will be able to do this 100%. You want them to force you to roleplay rather than make the decision to do it for yourself.

 

Want resting to be more meaningful? Play on a harder difficulty and give your party members skill distributions that fit their builds rather than min/max them for metagaming.

 

That's my 2 cents anyway

[Althernai]

Yeah, very few people like time limits in games like this. It doesn't make it harder, it just means that people won't do as many side quests or explore as much which kind of defeats the purpose of putting all of this material in the game in the first place. The last notable RPG that tried to combine hard time limits on the main plot with exploration and side quests was Fallout and even there I think it was patched to something so long that it more or less didn't matter.

[kaiki]

The missing piece is that there is no time limit. 

 

Story/lore reasoning:

- Currently, the big bad guy has a plan in motion.  But, rather than executing the final step as soon as possible, he just waits around for you to show up. 

- Another reason that there could be a time limit would be the whole going mad aspect that is currently way under expressed through the game.

 

It would have been nice if when you contact Thaos' soul in the sanitarium, you get a sense of something big he's planning on X date.  Perhaps even sooner.  Or, the alternative, something could give a hint as to when you're going to slip into total madness.  This would really answer that question people have kept posing, "Why am I even doing these things aside from the journal telling me to?"

 

The last game, that I can remember off the top of my head, that had a time limit was Fallout. The problem with time limits is that they create an incentive to skip content. Especially since you can hit level 12 by the time you reach Twin Elms time limits could create a game where you'd feel pressured to skip all the side quests from that point on in the game (or the point once you hit max level). Also, the time limit would change class balance away from wizards and druids. Since their class resources are regenerated around resting there would be that incentive to drop those classes. Even if it isn't a strong incentive there would still be that pressure to finish the game quickly.

 

Since some members of the team were around for Fallout 1 which did have a time limit and Fallout 2 which did not, I'd be interested if there were conversations about the merits/drawbacks of such a system.

[perilisk]

Time limits are problematic in games where exploration and story are big parts of the experience. It would make more sense in something much more mission-oriented and strategic. If it was fantasy XCOM or fantasy Jagged Alliance or fantasy Oregon Trail, a time limit is an important part of gameplay.

Time management would also work better if you were paying party members a per diem or at least paying for food, since 8 hours of rest at camp is a lot cheaper than 2 days travel to an inn, plus the inn itself.

Failing that, the typical mechanism to discourage abuse is random encounters -- that either resting or traveling puts you at risk of encounters you can't deal with.

For something like PoE, I think the best approach would have been:
1) Random encounters on the world map and while resting. You're already using "You must gather your party before venturing forth", might as well add "You have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself" too.
2) Replace the small number of camping supplies with a larger number of rations that you need to carry (can stock up in any town or at the stronghold). Every four hours (whether traveling, camping, or actually adventuring) depletes rations by a certain amount per party member, which would be reduced based on the highest Survival score in the party. IOW, time is money.
3) No resting without rations. Also, have a hunger debuff that accumulates if you run out. Rations determine how long you can stay outside of civilization, essentially.
4) Better fatigue gain. After about 16 hours of continuous travel, pretty much anyone should be tired. Encumbrance should play a role too.
5) More fine-tuned control over travel in the world map (tick hour by hour of travel), so you can decide when and where to camp to balance cost, time, fatigue, danger, and also react to any Stronghold events that pop.
6) Mission-style quests (Raedric's keep) should prohibit resting out of scripted sequences.

[Guest]

@althernai - Obsidian's last attempt at a mechanic that circumvented rest-spamming was the Spirit-Eater meter in MotB. While it never posed a big problem for me, personally, I do recall the devs lamenting that many players were afraid to explore and that this wasn't a mistake they wanted to repeat. So if you're looking for a specific example of a game that people had beef with because they felt timed, look no further.

[SlayerDorian]

If the rewards are worth taking the time to do a side quest (and they should be) then there is no issue here.  Again, the time limit should be tuned so that it is quite possible to do all side quests and complete the main story as long as you aren't constantly traveling back to the inn.  The pressure, really, is to use good strategy and not unload every powerful spell/summon nearly every chance you get.  This, currently, is entirely possible (playing through the game without frequently travelling back to an inn mid-dungeon).  The problem is that completing the game on PotD is rather cheapened because it is very easy to side-step the difficulty - thus rendering the difficulty setting nearly pointless.  Additionally, confusing many players.

 

The only way the diffuclty setting has meaning, currently, is if you self-impose some sort of limitations - this only becomes true when there is a design flaw.  The "Well if you think X is too powerful, then don't use it." line of thinking is one of the worst ways to view game design.

 

I agree you can't 100% save the player from themselves, however you can at least plug the giant holes.  Regarding non-min/maxed parties, I have already done this.  It, however, does not address this issue.

 

As for exploring everything without worrying about time constraints, that would still be fully possible on easy/normal.  Even on harder settings, the time limit should be tuned so that you can still do all side quests and exploring if you are playing well and your strategy is sound.  Like I said, those who actually want a challenge should get it (hard and PotD).  A time limit would go a long way to help with that.  There are complaints all over these forums about the game being too easy even on PotD and I believe this is one of the major reasons why, it's just not entirely obvious.

Edited April 29, 2015 by SlayerDorian

[Guest]

I'm sure Obsidian will give your feedback all the time and attention it deserves

[SlayerDorian]

I'm sure Obsidian will give your feedback all the time and attention it deserves

Hah, indeed. 

 

But if nothing were ever called out, even less would happen post-launch.  So far it does seem that they care, at least to some degree, about feedback.

[Crucis]

The missing piece is that there is no time limit. 

 

Story/lore reasoning:

- Currently, the big bad guy has a plan in motion.  But, rather than executing the final step as soon as possible, he just waits around for you to show up. 

- Another reason that there could be a time limit would be the whole going mad aspect that is currently way under expressed through the game.

 

It would have been nice if when you contact Thaos' soul in the sanitarium, you get a sense of something big he's planning on X date.  Perhaps even sooner.  Or, the alternative, something could give a hint as to when you're going to slip into total madness.  This would really answer that question people have kept posing, "Why am I even doing these things aside from the journal telling me to?"

 

Game balance:

Right now, there is a lot of confusion going on about camping supply limit and people wanting to rest after every battle.  The confusion stems from the camping supply limit not really holding any weight because the only real drawback to running out is that you have to go through a few loading screens to visit an inn.  The drawback is really just a user experience issue, not actual challenge.  It is easy to see why this confuses some people.

 

Others enjoy the limited rest aspect, because it adds a new layer of strategy and skill to the game experience as long as it is not quickly abused by the previously mentioned workaround.

 

Positives of having this time limit:

- The higher level strategy of completing a dungeon or travelling in the wilderness, not just meeting the challenge of individual combat encounters would be real.  Right now, it is really only there if you choose to do it because you can always go back to town and rest in the inn as many times as you want with the only cost being a few loading screens.

- PotD battles could no longer be constantly trivialised by people resting after every battle (or nearly every battle) and spamming their most powerful spells and figurine summons.  Obviously, the game is going to be stupidly easy if this is how you approach it - which ultimately ruins the experience and cheapens the whole idea of having the difficulty setting in the first place. 

- When you complete the game on hard or PotD is actually stands for something because of the item listed above.  Right now, pretty much anyone can complete the game without much effort given that approach.

- Travel time actually means something.  Right now it can be 100% ignored with no concequence.  (especially if you have 4+ athletics on your characters, which is extremely easy to obtain)

- There would be more reason to use every little trick in your book.  Food, scrolls, potions, ect.

- Managing your resources and fighting smart becomes a necessity rather than optional.

- It gives clarity to the limited camping supplies system.  It will become immediately obivous why it is in the game if spending ages traveling back and forth to the inn and dungeon actually has a downside.

- There could be an actual sense of urgency.  This is 100% lacking right now.

 

Of course, not everyone is going to want the challenge.  It should be safe to say, though, that anyone playing on hard and PotD do want challenge.  So, the time limit should at least be there.  Perhaps even normal, though this I could see going either way or just having a longer time limit.  Leave easy mode open to wasting as much time traveling around as the player wants.

 

The time limit shouldn't be ultra hard core.  Just enough to make time a valuable thing.  There would need to be some analysis to figure out how long it should be as there should be some room for heading back to town to resupply now and then - it just shouldn't a viable option to frequently do it because that negates many difficulty balance aspects of the game.

 

 

Honestly, I don't really care nor want a time limit.  I don't want any "actual sense of urgency".  I want to play and enjoy the game.  I want to be able to explore and do as many of the side quests as I feel like doing.   To me, this is a total non-issue.

 

[Crucis]

Time limits are problematic in games where exploration and story are big parts of the experience. It would make more sense in something much more mission-oriented and strategic. If it was fantasy XCOM or fantasy Jagged Alliance or fantasy Oregon Trail, a time limit is an important part of gameplay.

 

Time management would also work better if you were paying party members a per diem or at least paying for food, since 8 hours of rest at camp is a lot cheaper than 2 days travel to an inn, plus the inn itself.

 

Failing that, the typical mechanism to discourage abuse is random encounters -- that either resting or traveling puts you at risk of encounters you can't deal with.

 

For something like PoE, I think the best approach would have been:

1) Random encounters on the world map and while resting. You're already using "You must gather your party before venturing forth", might as well add "You have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself" too.

2) Replace the small number of camping supplies with a larger number of rations that you need to carry (can stock up in any town or at the stronghold). Every four hours (whether traveling, camping, or actually adventuring) depletes rations by a certain amount per party member, which would be reduced based on the highest Survival score in the party. IOW, time is money.

3) No resting without rations. Also, have a hunger debuff that accumulates if you run out. Rations determine how long you can stay outside of civilization, essentially.

4) Better fatigue gain. After about 16 hours of continuous travel, pretty much anyone should be tired. Encumbrance should play a role too.

5) More fine-tuned control over travel in the world map (tick hour by hour of travel), so you can decide when and where to camp to balance cost, time, fatigue, danger, and also react to any Stronghold events that pop.

6) Mission-style quests (Raedric's keep) should prohibit resting out of scripted sequences.

 

I don't want any sort of time limits.

 

As for Random encounters, I liked the old random encounters while traveling and while resting in less than perfectly safe locations.  And wouldn't mind seeing them back in the game.  They made the idea of adventuring seem more "realistic".  Traveling around the Dyrwood seems to have no dangers whatsoever.  And resting in the wilderness seems uncommonly safe.  It really should be a lot riskier, IMO. 

 

As for this whole thing about rations vs camping supplies, I want to play a CRPG, with some dialogs, exploration, and combat.  I'm not so sure that I'm interested in playing the party's quartermaster as well.

 

As for #6, you need to be more clear, as what you're trying to say seems as clear as mud to me right now.

[perilisk]

As for this whole thing about rations vs camping supplies, I want to play a CRPG, with some dialogs, exploration, and combat.  I'm not so sure that I'm interested in playing the party's quartermaster as well.

 

 

As for #6, you need to be more clear, as what you're trying to say seems as clear as mud to me right now.

 

 

As for the rations, I was just thinking that it's imposing a cost on spending time that has some plausible justification. Not enough to be punishing or require much management (pretty much just a metaphorical gas tank) but it at least adds some additional reason to be thoughtful about resting.

 

As for #6, a fortress or other orderly kith-run area isn't a dungeon filled with random critters or the undead. Once you start tangling with guards, you're pretty much committed to see it through, or it strains the bounds of plausibility (though retreat could be possible, at the cost of failing the quest, losing the advantage of stealth, etc.). Having the occasional area where you can't rest is good, for a change of pace if nothing else, so long as it's clear up front and it's balanced accordingly.

[Tanred]

Imposing time limits to increase RPGs difficulty makes no sense. If anything it only frustrates the player and often times prevents from enjoying the game at all.

 

PoE has difficulty issues, but they stem from game mechanics, AI and encounter design. Time limit would not fix that.    

[Crucis]

 

As for this whole thing about rations vs camping supplies, I want to play a CRPG, with some dialogs, exploration, and combat.  I'm not so sure that I'm interested in playing the party's quartermaster as well.

 

 

As for #6, you need to be more clear, as what you're trying to say seems as clear as mud to me right now.

 

 

As for the rations, I was just thinking that it's imposing a cost on spending time that has some plausible justification. Not enough to be punishing or require much management (pretty much just a metaphorical gas tank) but it at least adds some additional reason to be thoughtful about resting.

 

As for #6, a fortress or other orderly kith-run area isn't a dungeon filled with random critters or the undead. Once you start tangling with guards, you're pretty much committed to see it through, or it strains the bounds of plausibility (though retreat could be possible, at the cost of failing the quest, losing the advantage of stealth, etc.). Having the occasional area where you can't rest is good, for a change of pace if nothing else, so long as it's clear up front and it's balanced accordingly.

 

 

Regarding rations, I just don't see the point to it.  It seems to me that the camping supplies system is sufficient, particularly if there are some areas where you can't rest (or shouldn't be able to do so) and some areas where resting is possible but the chances of being discovered are high or variable. 

 

I have no problem with the idea that you shouldn't be able to rest in Raedric's castle.  None at all. I'd assume that the castle guard would be doing regular rounds, and would eventually come across you resting.  The only logical counter argument I can see to this is that some players might find it tedious to have to withdraw from the castle to rest.  But frankly, that wouldn't be enough of an argument for me to prevent resting in the castle.

 

As for "Once you start tangling with guards, you're pretty much committed to see it through, or it strains the bounds of plausibility" comment, so what?   If you require players to work on a clock or prevent them from leaving the castle once you enter and have engaged the castle guard, I think that all you'll end up doing is tick off a large portion of the players, as well as greatly increasing the difficulty of completing the castle "mission".  If you can't rest and can't withdraw to a safe location to rest, it becomes a suicide mission for all but the best players with the most OP parties.  I know that in the few times I've done Raedric's castle, I've always had to withdraw a few times before being able to complete the job.

 

Furthermore, games like this reward clearing each level, killing all the bad guys (and looting them and the area in general), before eventually dealing with the big bad.  However, with what you're suggesting, it would run counter to this meta.  It would seem to force players to have to find the quickest way to complete the mission and deal with as FEW of the castle guards as possible on your way to the leader.  Also, the way that the Raedric's castle "mission" is set up, you're supposed to search and find that semi-friendly priest, free someone in the dungeon, and probably deal with the animancer in the dungeon.  And this requires that you do a lot of exploration and dealing with the inevitable encounters with the castle's various defenders, which just makes it even more difficult to be able to complete the castle mission without resting.

 

No, IMO, what you suggest for the castle runs counter to the way that these games are played and designed.  And I'm fairly happy with the way things are now.  I don't really care if leaving the castle and coming back later strains credulity for some.  I'm more interested in the game being fun, and not being unreasonable hard and/or tedious just to indulge some people's sense of credulity.

[SlayerDorian]

I like the idea some areas being a one-shot design.  Obivously, this would just be on hard difficulty settings (because you don't select hard or PotD without wanting more challenge, so here it is).  They even built in a couple free resting spots in the place.  It would be nice to see some various in the quest legs/dungeons.  Some have to be one-shot, with clear warning and maybe even an autosave created just before entering.  Some quests could time constrained so you can't just travel around to inns for months because you're playing out of your league.

 

The biggest things people seem to be complete disregarding when arguing against some of these extra challenges is that they would just be on harder difficulty settings.  This is for people who want the challenge, and there are plenty of people saying that the game is too easy on PotD.  Increasing monster count per encounter and upping their stats is really just a basic change (and rather uncreative), why not have some more in depth difficulty added in these harder modes?  That's the next evolution, really.

[Blovski]

Frankly, time limits tend to run against the way people play the game. I mean, the (real) Fallout games had a time limit and it didn't really serve either of them (especially 2, but I suspect that's more because Fallout 2 was fundamentally a bit stupid in the plot department) well. I do think it'd be an interesting challenge/achievement mode but I suspect the 10 rests one would accomplish much the same thing?

 

In many ways, having an illusion of urgency is better than a hard limit - this is what BG 2's dream sequences did really stupendously well. Hell, even the first BG's dreams added a lot of impetus to you wanting to complete the plot and knowing it was happening.

PoE's biggest story problem is that the whole Watcher/Awakening/Slowlygoinginsane business is reinforced really inconsistently throughout the game and never in a way that affects or interrupts the player.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Blovski

[SlayerDorian]

Frankly, time limits tend to run against the way people play the game.

Only for those who rest extremely frequently to keep all battles in easy mode regardless of difficulty setting.  If the time limit is only on hard or PotD then there's no problem.  People who want to rest all the time can play on easy or normal.

[kaiki]

PoE's biggest story problem is that the whole Watcher/Awakening/Slowlygoinginsane business is reinforced really inconsistently throughout the game and never in a way that affects or interrupts the player.

 

Agreed. During my first playthrough I was under the impression that being a Watcher just let me see ghosts. So all the times I *think* you are supposed to be seeing visions of your past life, I thought those were more spirits. It very much feels that the devs wanted three things

 

1. The PC is super special in some way.

2. The PC has a deep personal connection with the main antagonist.

3. Whatever is the connecting thread between 1 & 2 also provides a driving motivation for the character to go adventure/stop the antagonist.

 

While "Watcherhood" accomplishes those three goals the whole "being a Watcher" feel like an afterthought that is just a device to service those three listed goals.

[Tigranes]

The simple problem with any time limit is that players are really, really resistant to it. 

 

The spirit meter I thought was superbly suited to the setting, but you just had tons of people ready to kill their mother to get rid of it. 

[Blovski]

 

Frankly, time limits tend to run against the way people play the game.

Only for those who rest extremely frequently to keep all battles in easy mode regardless of difficulty setting.  If the time limit is only on hard or PotD then there's no problem.  People who want to rest all the time can play on easy or normal.

 

I don't really agree here. If you want to do a completionist PotD run while taking on Od Nua at an early enough level that the items you get are useful, you don't want to suddenly find out you have three rests left to beat Twin Elms or be spending the whole game worrying about an arbitrary time limit even if you're not going to run into it.

 

Basically, if you were going to play it like this it'd encourage a more severe version of the Ironman gameplay where you want to soak up a load of easy XP as early as possible and then take on otherwise interesting and challenging encounters or areas once they're easily accomplished in one rest.

 

Again, I don't see what gameplay this encourages that the optional ten rest achievement wouldn't?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Blovski

[Hassat Hunter]

Hard? Wait, I can't do that... only Easy? Since I don't want time limits...

 

You know where you can put your game? Where the sun don't shine.

 

Yeah, definitely not a 'sollution', only making more and more problems where there were none :/

[Kanasuke]

If I enter a dungeon, I should not be allowed out until I clear up to certain milestones. Once in, I have limited number of rests. This way I am forced to conserve.

 

I have an option to teleport out, but I lose all XP and items and mobs respawn. (Not every area has to be like this.)

 

Even in neverwinter nights, there were sections of the story mode where the player CANNOT rest. Pillars is a step backwards.