Why are Clubs Accurate?

[Luckmann]

So, I realize that some of the threads I'm making lately basically amount to "Suggestion X and why Y should work Z" or something like that, but I've been playing quite a bit lately and instead of sitting on my thoughts forever, I thought I'd get it out there.

Clubs, they are under-used, does not have a real niche, and I've never seen anyone say "Haaaave you tried clubs?".

 

For whatever reason, they are considered Accurate. Discounting Fists, that means that 3 out of 6 Light weapons are Accurate, and gets +5 Accuracy. Alright, fair enough, it's a good bonus to have. I'm still taking Stilettos for the Penetration, and if I want Accuracy, I'll go with Rapiers, thanks.

However, there is only a single weapon type in the entire game that gets +Interrupt. The two-handed, slow-ass Morning Stars.

My suggestion? Make clubs +Interrupt instead of Accurate, thus bumping them up one bracket, from 0.35 to 0.5 or even 0.6.

 

Is this major? Maybe not, no, but it is a meaningful difference and let's clubs fill a specific niche.

 

 

Also, I think that Daggers should be the "Uses the better of Slash and Pierce"-weapon of Fast weapons.

 

[knownastherat]

Well, there is probably not enough mobs being weak to Crush, or rather highly resistant to Slash/Pierce, if nobody needs it.

[Kaigen42]

It's an interesting idea, though if you bumped them all the way up to 0.5s, they'd be better than morning stars, so it would probably be better to put them somewhere around 0.45s so that you don't end up obviating one weapon while trying to make another more useful.

[tnc]

Maybe it's because they are big and cover a larger area when u swing it. But personally i'd make them have a large interrupt bonus that way it would be a good weapon for dual wield barbarian cavemen I also wish there were two handed clubs like in temple of elemental evil. I remember when i crit with it in that game the animation was so awesome. Wish crits in this game had special animations too.

[KDubya]

It would give clubs a purpose and would make sense. When the  interrupting talent gets fixed interrupting builds will be more interesting and effective.

 

The dagger would also make sense as a pierce/slash weapon.

[Ouroboros226]

Hi

Its simple really.

When you choose to pick up a club - a CLUB!... of all weapons... ; to bludgeon someone to death with. Then you are really, really set on killing them Hence the extra accuracy. I mean you could have chosen a sword, a bow, a mace or any other weapon. But a lousy club? Then you are SERIOUS about killing said person or creature.  

[Luckmann]

Well, there is probably not enough mobs being weak to Crush, or rather highly resistant to Slash/Pierce, if nobody needs it.

The Damage Types themselves doesn't matter much, really. Whenever possible, I think weapons should have niches beyond the damage type itself, anyway.

 

Maybe it's because they are big and cover a larger area when u swing it. But personally i'd make them have a large interrupt bonus that way it would be a good weapon for dual wield barbarian cavemen I also wish there were two handed clubs like in temple of elemental evil. I remember when i crit with it in that game the animation was so awesome. Wish crits in this game had special animations too.

On the note of large clubs, I really want sledge-type hammers. Good ol' Diablo 2-style mauls that you swing overhead into your opponents, crushing their skulls. Two-Handed Crush weapons, Slow speed, +Crit.Dmg like Battle Axes or simply +Dmg á la Sabres.

 

Hi

 

Its simple really.

 

When you choose to pick up a club - a CLUB!... of all weapons... ; to bludgeon someone to death with. Then you are really, really set on killing them Hence the extra accuracy. I mean you could have chosen a sword, a bow, a mace or any other weapon. But a lousy club? Then you are SERIOUS about killing said person or creature.

Probably the best explanation so far. +25% Barbarian Rage duration?

[Ouroboros226]

 

Well, there is probably not enough mobs being weak to Crush, or rather highly resistant to Slash/Pierce, if nobody needs it.

The Damage Types themselves doesn't matter much, really. Whenever possible, I think weapons should have niches beyond the damage type itself, anyway.

 

Maybe it's because they are big and cover a larger area when u swing it. But personally i'd make them have a large interrupt bonus that way it would be a good weapon for dual wield barbarian cavemen I also wish there were two handed clubs like in temple of elemental evil. I remember when i crit with it in that game the animation was so awesome. Wish crits in this game had special animations too.

On the note of large clubs, I really want sledge-type hammers. Good ol' Diablo 2-style mauls that you swing overhead into your opponents, crushing their skulls. Two-Handed Crush weapons, Slow speed, +Crit.Dmg like Battle Axes or simply +Dmg á la Sabres.

 

Hi

 

Its simple really.

 

When you choose to pick up a club - a CLUB!... of all weapons... ; to bludgeon someone to death with. Then you are really, really set on killing them Hence the extra accuracy. I mean you could have chosen a sword, a bow, a mace or any other weapon. But a lousy club? Then you are SERIOUS about killing said person or creature.

Probably the best explanation so far. +25% Barbarian Rage duration?

 

And 50% if dual-wielding clubs ^^

 

If you are also a priest who worships Skaen dual-wielding 2xclubs - then you also get to summon a mob with pitchforks and torches whom all gain your frenzy buff.

[Crucis]

Honestly, I think that the way that PoE handles clubs, maces, and morning stars is all wrong.  They're basically the same type of weapon, a "club" of sorts.  How they differ doesn't really change how they're used in combat.  It only changes the amount and perhaps type of damage.  In theory, they could be one or two handed, mostly depending on the size and weight of the weapon in question.  And I get the impression that clubs tend to simpler and more primitive, whereas maces and morning stars are manufactured. 

 

From a game perspective, I see three things.

 

One, morning stars, essentially being spiked maces probably should be one of those dual damage weapons, i.e. crushing or piercing damage.

 

Two, I see no reason where there couldn't be one and two handed versions of all 3 sub types (clubs, maces, morning stars).

 

Three, all three should be covered by the same talent, because the skill to use one is the same, with perhaps one exception.  One might argue that there's a slightly different skill for using 1H versions vs. 2H versions. 

[knownastherat]

Weapon talents are designed in such way that there is one type of weapon/damage included in every talent. This suggests that switching weapon types depending on encounter is meant by design or at least made possible by design.

 

Is there need or is it essential to switch weapons (except melee/ranged)?

There are only 2 unique clubs iirc

 

If there were encounters which would be very difficult to near impossible to beat without crushing weapons we would not be talking here about clubs. I do not have the stats but from I gather here it seems to me that people pick for example 2H at level 1 and stick with it till level 12. War hammer? Who cares and who needs? Same with club. I have Sabre and Sabers are cool. Cool and apparently effective.

 

Buff club so 2W Barb could run around with it .. alright but that wont change anything.

Edited April 24, 2015 by knownastherat

[Crucis]

Weapon talents are designed in such way that there is one type of weapon/damage included in every talent. This suggests that switching weapon types depending on encounter is meant by design or at least made possible by design.

 

Is there need or is it essential to switch weapons (except melee/ranged)?

There are only 2 unique clubs iirc

 

If there were encounters which would be very difficult to near impossible to beat without crushing weapons we would not be talking here about clubs. I do not have the stats but from I gather here it seems to me that people pick for example 2H at level 1 and stick with it till level 12. War hammer? Who cares and who needs? Same with club. I have Sabre and Sabers are cool. Cool and apparently effective.

 

Buff club so 2W Barb could run around with it .. alright but that wont change anything.

 

Honestly, I don't like the WF talents.  I was going to talk about my dislike of them in my previous post but decided to skip it to stay more closely on topic.  But seeing as you've brought it up ...

 

I personally wish that the devs would dump these WF groups.  I honestly don't like them.  Some of them aren't entirely stupid, but in all honestly, the adventurers one is ridiculous.   Furthermore, they're very limited to good roleplaying of your character's weapon choices.

 

Want to play a rapier and pistol wielding swashbuckler?  2 different WF's. 

 

You're a ranger or perhaps a ranged rogue.  Either way, you're essentially a ranged weapon specialist.  And yet you'd have to take a bunch of different WF's to cover the weapons you're really skilled in, and get stuck with a bunch of weapons that you're not.

 

You're a wizard.  Why are wands and rods/scepters spread across two different WFs?  Why not have wands/rods/scepters and quarter staffs and daggers in a single wizard focused WF?

 

Frankly, these WF groups are too constricting IMO, and punish people who want to role play their characters outside of these little WF boxes.  But sad to say, it's probably too late to do anything about it at this point.

[Luckmann]

I really like the Weapon Focus groups, I just think that there should be more and more diverse ones. There definitely needs to be a Swashbuckler one.

[knownastherat]

I am not sure what to think of WF. Apologies for derail but even if designated club interrupt builds are better than no builds, it still seems niche. While I am not too concerned with "balance" in general I would also like to see more clubs.

[Veevoir]

I'd just want to point out, in favour of suggestion - most clubs that are in current use (starting from infamous blackjacks - perfect when chlorophorm is out of reach) exist solely for subduing.

So long interrupt (hopefully a bit longer than a standard weapon) would perfectly fit the theme. 

[Crucis]

I really like the Weapon Focus groups, I just think that there should be more and more diverse ones. There definitely needs to be a Swashbuckler one.

 

Luckmann, the problem with the WF groups as they are now is that there are 6 WF groups to cover all different weapon types with no overlap.  What you suggest could be an entirely acceptable solution.  Right now, the problem with the existing groups *IS* that they try to cover all weapon types.  But if the devs stepped back, and created some reasonable WF groups that accepted the likelihood of overlaps, this could work.

 

For example, a swashbuckler WF might include pistols, rapiers, sabers, daggers, stilettos, and maybe blunderbusses and clubs (if they were separate from maces and morningstars, which I wish they weren't, but moving on).  This would seem to cover a fairly sterotypical set of swashbuckler weapons.

 

A wizard's WF set might be wands, rods, scepters, quarterstaffs, and daggers.

 

The peasant WF set actually seems pretty decent as is, though I think that it could include simple clubs as well.  Peasant weapons should be simple weapons that you'd see simple peasants use.  Quarterstaffs, clubs, spears, hatchets, fists.  One might argue that a hunting bow isn't exactly simple, but it does seem to fit better than anything else in the game, unless one was going to include slings, which might make more sense from a "simple weapon" perspective.

 

 

An assassin's WF set might include things like daggers, stilettos, arbalests, and arquabusses. (Anything else?)

 

I think that one could argue that there could be a more generic "thief" WF set, though that might roughly equate to a ruffian set, which I wouldn't say is a perfect match for the existing version.

 

I'm thinking that a Knight's WF set should include Greatsword, Estoc, Sword, Crossbow, and possibly Mace and Morning star and/or Flail.

 

OTOH, a Soldier's WF set should probably be more like Pike, Poleaxe, Crossbow, Arbalest, Battleaxe, and perhaps warhammer.  I put both crossbow and arbalest but not bows or guns into this set because I think that it'd be likely that those would be the ranged weapons of most actual soldiers.  Guns would seem to be to expensive to be mass produced for soldiers at this tech level.  And traditionally, IIRC, crossbows and arbalests are easier to learn to use than bows, making them better for soldiers.

 

A Ranger's set might include Hunting Bows, Warbows, and possibly arquabusses (aka rifles).  Pistols and blunderbusses (aka shotguns) don't seem very ranger-y, though I admit that that's a matter of opinion and perspective.  I'd probably suggest about 3 other melee weapons to include here to fill it out.  Perhaps spears.  Maybe sabers and swords.

 

I don't have an "adventurer's" WF set because "adventurers" are far too diverse IMO for there to be any reasonable mix out of the existing weapons that would make any sense, at least to me.

 

A monk's weapon set might be interesting.  Obviously, fists.  But after this, a lot depends on one's view of what a "monk" is.  If one is thinking of a more eastern, martial artsy monk, then things like Qstaffs and daggers/stilettos make sense.  Bows can make sense too, though monks in this game aren't really into being ranged warriors.  One might also argue that Sabers (as a substitute for katanas) are viable for an "eastern" style of monk.  OTOH, if you're looking at more european style monks, then perhaps you're looking at more priests/cleric/soldier/knight weaponry, which perhaps could be covered by a priestly WF (or just use the above knight or soldier WF's).

 

 

 

Anyways, that's all I've got for now.  Interesting discussion.

[Luckmann]

 

I really like the Weapon Focus groups, I just think that there should be more and more diverse ones. There definitely needs to be a Swashbuckler one.

 

Luckmann, the problem with the WF groups as they are now is that there are 6 WF groups to cover all different weapon types with no overlap.  What you suggest could be an entirely acceptable solution.  Right now, the problem with the existing groups *IS* that they try to cover all weapon types.  But if the devs stepped back, and created some reasonable WF groups that accepted the likelihood of overlaps, this could work.

 

[...]

 

This mirrors my own sentiments more or less exactly (one point is on weapon focus). It seems that they created the Weapon Focus Groups entirely based on each group having to fit a mould, covering each weapon type, a ranged weapon or two, and both one-handed and two-handed. And it's way too restrictive if you want to do themed characters.

 

And let's face it, in a roleplaying game, we want to do themed characters. It's practically the point of the game.

 

Instead, I'd like to see groups that covers both "a wide spread" and "a narrow focus". There's room for both, and from a balance perspective, even a single group that "covers all the bases" is really enough. Now, I see nothing wrong with most of the pre-existing ones, but there could definitely stand to be some more interesting additions.

 

I used to think that Weapon Focus Groups shouldn't be allowed to stack, but I'm not so sure anymore. A Talent is a hefty investment and if you want to burn one for another +6 Accuracy on a weapon, I don't think it'd be very unbalanced. I realize it could be an issue though, but if I had to choose between my suggested changes and additions, or them begin able to make specific Talent-based bonuses mutually exclusive, I'd still take the former.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Luckmann

[gkathellar]

Why are rapiers? Skewering someone is actually a lot harder than than taking a swing at them.

 

Hell, why are daggers? One-handed spears? Those are easy weapons to use, not exactly hard weapons to defend against.

 

PoE's weapon system is not realistic. At all. I can write you a list, if you like. This is a standard feature of fantasy RPGs, and I've long since stopped caring to complain about it. You're welcome to do so, but try to keep perspective - clubs do not stand out in this regard.

 

(That said, I echo your sentiment about WF. I like the idea of Noble and Soldier, but I'd also like to have Swords and Polearms.)

Edited April 24, 2015 by gkathellar

[Luckmann]

Why are rapiers? Skewering someone is actually a lot harder than than taking a swing at them.

 

Hell, why are daggers? One-handed spears? Those are easy weapons to use, not exactly hard weapons to defend against.

 

PoE's weapon system is not realistic. At all. I can write you a list, if you like. This is a standard feature of fantasy RPGs, and I've long since stopped caring to complain about it. You're welcome to do so, but try to keep perspective - clubs do not stand out in this regard.

 

(That said, I echo your sentiment about WF. I like the idea of Noble and Soldier, but I'd also like to have Swords and Polearms.)

 

My argument isn't really as much what is realistic as what feels thematically... "right". I agree that from a realistic point of view, rapiers aren't inherently more accurate, but as you say, it's a lot harder to skewer someone than it is to simply swing at them, but that's where the thematic feels come into play - a rapier is a precision weapon, a light weapon you take aimed pokes with, thus it gets a +Accuracy bonus.

 

Daggers I share completely, I see no reason for them to get +Accuracy. Most daggers in the game look more like knives anyway, and the stilettos fulfil the whole pokey-pokey thing and circumvents DR because of it's short-range aim or whatever. Which is why I said that I want Daggers to have "best of Slash/Pierce" - a bonus Light weapons currently do not even have access too, and Daggers suffer from the same thing as Clubs - why would you use them?

 

Spears get +Accuracy for the same reason Rapiers do, I guess.

 

So it's much less about what is realistic, and more about feeling and mechanics. Mechanically, 3 out of 6 light weapons have +Accuracy, and no weapon gets a bonus to Interrupt (which I feel would fit Clubs) and no weapon gets "best of" (which I feel would fit Daggers). That's the perspective I'm keeping. The strict realism really never enters into it.

[Concordance]

While I agree that +Interrupt fits Clubs a lot better thematically, I think they may have chosen to go with +Accuracy for balance reasons.

 

My last playthrough had a high-Dex, high-Per melee Rogue dual wielding Stilettos, and he was this close to perma-locking most enemies with interrupts - any enemy engaged in single combat with the Rogue landed roughly 1 blow for every 10 he was dealt. And this was with Weak interrupt and without Interrupting Blows!

 

If Clubs had an Average interrupt value on a Fast weapon, I'd carry 2x clubs as my second set to disable single enemies (and engagement!) on demand. While empowering interrupt-centric builds would normally be a good thing, I think it this might take it a little too far.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Concordance

[Eos]

Because to the man who only has a hammer every problem looks like a nail. It's meta-accuracy

[Ormag]

A club looks better than a rapier, and there is a pretty good unique club in Hearthsong market.