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Ok there's a lot of talk about Paladins being subpar etc etc (while I am having a blast with mine) so I thought I'd make a topic on what we can do to improve the Paladins.

So far keeping with the designs and abilities the paladin already offers I got 3 suggestions.

 

1. On kill abilities. Instead of having it proc when the paladin gets the finishing blow, why not change it to happen if the paladin crits?

2. Flames of devotion and it's like. Instead of activating it and have a chance to miss, why not just stay active and go off when the paladin does actually hit instead of turning off if they miss?

3. Have the passive buffs (paladin only) and their aruas go up or down depending on how many rep they have with their order?

 

What do u guys think?

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Ok there's a lot of talk about Paladins being subpar etc etc (while I am having a blast with mine) so I thought I'd make a topic on what we can do to improve the Paladins.

So far keeping with the designs and abilities the paladin already offers I got 3 suggestions.

 

1. On kill abilities. Instead of having it proc when the paladin gets the finishing blow, why not change it to happen if the paladin crits?

2. Flames of devotion and it's like. Instead of activating it and have a chance to miss, why not just stay active and go off when the paladin does actually hit instead of turning off if they miss?

3. Have the passive buffs (paladin only) and their aruas go up or down depending on how many rep they have with their order?

 

What do u guys think?

 

1.  I agree.  Triggering On Kill abilities is so random.  Well, everything is random to a degree, but you have no control over who gets the killing blow on an enemy if you're trying to focus multiple characters' attacks on a single target.  At least if it triggers on crits, this problem goes away.  Frankly, on-kill abilities seem to be more useful if you're playing solo (assuming that the ability in question isn't meant to help allies) since you'd be the only one to get kills.

 

2.  Yeah, it'd be nice if Flame of Devotion attacks were expended after the next hit, rather the next attack, since a miss on that attack means that the ability was wasted.  Alternatively, they'd also be nice if instead of being for a single attack, if the ability was time based and affected every attack for the next, say, 10 or 20 seconds.  This way, misses would be less painful, if you got a chance for multiple attacks for a single use of the ability.

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ad. 2) because that's how special attacks work in this game. If you think paladins need special treatment in this regard, try to think why.

 

I've been thinking about Paladin and it occured to me that many other classes get something interesting and more active even on level 1. In addition to an activated ability choice:

priest: Brilliance

druid: Spiritshift

wizard: Arcane Assault

monk: ---

ranger:  animal companion

fighter: endurance regeneration

barbarian: carnage

cipher: ---

rogue: ---

chanter: ---

 

Monk: see Rogue.

 

Cipher: see Rogue.

 

Technically, paladin does get something on level1, but it's passive and basically assures that nothing happens. Fighter's ability is similar, but it sounds interesting by comparison, and it's nice to see the endurance bar fill up.

 

Rogue gets no additional ability, but almost all their abilities are activated and do something.

 

Chanter is frequently accused of being passive, but he gets an aura-like ability every two levels and a powerful active abilty every two levels. Also, he has many abilities to choose from: 14 Phrases (!!!), 19 Invocations (!!!!). Only two abilities count as talents (ancient memory and beloved spirits - both regenereate endurance of allies). All others are a bonus. Also, on level1 Chanter gainst THREE abilities: two phrases and one invocation.

 

 

That may be a reason why some consider Paladin boring. Many of his abilities are passive, and those that aren't generally prevent stuff from happening. They just let everyone keep using auto attacks.

Faith&Conviction: reduces chance that Paladin will be affected by a special effect.

Flames of Devotion: an attack with some extra damage

Lay on Hands: an ally can keep fighting

Auras: they are fine, but you'll be hard pressed to afford more than one.

Inspiring Triumph: when Paladin kills an opponent, his allies get a reduced chance to be influenced by special effects

Liberating Exhortation: removes some special effects from an ally

Deprive the Unworthy: removes special effects from an enemy

Sworn Enemy: the Paladin is encouraged to do nothing but auto attack for something like 10-20 seconds

Reviving Exhortation: Lay on Hands mk. II. An ally can keep fighting and using auto attack.

Reinforcing Exhortation: an ally can keep doing whatever he's doing. Lay on Hands mk. III

Coordinated Attacks: Paladin and an ally are encouraged to make auto attacks.

Hastening Exhortation: An ally is encouraged to perform auto attacks.

 

Moral of the story: if you don't want anything special to happen in combat, Paladin is for you.

Edited by b0rsuk
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Now a lot of paladins abilities and talents will affect the team EXCEPT paladins themselves, whichs is not very sensible to me. For example, the kill triggerable talents like Strange Mercy,  FOD related talents like Shield Flames and most exhortations, make these also affect pal will give them a boost.

Edited by dunehunter
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My suggestions for improving the Paladin;

 

Give Flames of Devotion a 1/encounter use at level 1. Make the ability automatically give more per encounter charges for every 2 levels you level up. So, you'd get another charge at level 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17/19, totaling to 6/encounter uses at level 12.

 

Give Lay on Hands a 1/encounter use at level 1. Make the ability automatically give more per encounter charges for every 4 levels you level up. So, you'd get another charge at level 5/9/13/17, totaling to 3 charges at level 12. 

 

Reasoning for these changes: Both FoD and LoH can be heavily specialized in through class traits and talents to bring a lot of utility to the Paladin class. While these abilities are powerful early on in the game, their initial per encounter uses make these talents (and the Paladin class itself) very lackluster starting around level 7. Other classes get more abilities to fall back on and their utility vastly expands, this while the Paladin is still stuck with the same 2/encounter uses for FoD and 1/encounter uses for LoH (be it slightly more powerful versions) from level 1.

 

Allow a Paladin to have all of his Zealous Aura's active at the same time. Aura's already don't stack with many buffs of other classes out there. Not to mention that it requires a Paladin to invest out of 5 possible class trait choices, 3 of them into picking up all the Aura's. The aura's also only bring minor buffs, especially compared to the powerful spells some other classes bring at higher levels. Would it therefor really be overpowered for a Paladin to build around them? Keep in mind that the earliest and "auradin" would be active, would be at level 7, with having no other chosen class traits apart from level 1. This, despite dumping a lot of traits and talents into these abilities.

 

Sworn Enemy is alright at 3/rest, but would feel a lot better and more fitting if it was 1/encounter.

 

Liberating Exhortation is in it's current form a bad joke. It's a single target version of a level 2 Priest spell, in a game where most debuffs are applied as AoE (or at least, debuffs that it can affect). Considering that Paladins don't have any reason, apart from this and maybe one other spell, to build specifically as a pure spellcaster, you'll be using your slow actions in order to triage AoE effects with 2/encounter single target cleanses. It's just stupid. Either rework it from the ground up, or at least make it an AoE effect (meaning however that it becomes a duplicate of the Priest spell). 

 

Reviving Exhortation is heavily hamstrung due to it killing most classes after its 15 second window. Even high HP classes like Fighters and Barbarians require a healthy investment into Con to survive it. Make it take away 50% of the max endurance of the allied target it was cast on, along with reducing it to 3/rest or something similar. I guarantee that even with 3/rest charges and only 50% max endurance, it'll be numerous times more useful than it's current version. If deemed too powerful at level 7, swap it out with Reinforcing Exhortation (so you get a choice between a debuff (Deprive the Unworthy) or buff (Reinforcing Exhortation) at level 7) that you get at level 9. At level 9, it certainly isn't too powerful compared to what other classes get.

 

Faith and Conviction needs to be given to none player character Paladins. They are seriously hurt by not having access to such a core ability. Yes, it means you need to keep in mind that you have a Paladin in your group when it comes to roleplaying, but I consider that a good thing.

 

"But this would make Paladins powerful! You can't do that!", well that's the point. To make Paladins feel powerful, since other classes feel really powerful and potent at level 12. When other classes gain in levels, you basically go from "oh" to "wow" to "holy crap". However, with the Paladin it's currently "meh" from level 1 to 12.

Edited by eubatham
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That may be a reason why some consider Paladin boring. Many of his abilities are passive,

 

This may be a little OT, but I'm not bothered that every single character needs an extreme level of micro management to avid boredom.  With a full party of 6, there's more than enough going on that I don't mind if I have one or two characters who I can generally allow to operate without constant micromanagement.  IMO, this lets me pay more attention to the other characters, such as the spellcasters, so that I can decide how best to use their spells.

 

Another example of a hands-off, limited micro-management class is the Ranger.  Just give'em their ranged weapon, and let'em get on with the sniping.  Of course, when you're up against an enemy that's charming party members, you have to take a more active hand because the darned AI isn't smart enough to NOT target charmed members of your party.  But oh well.

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Faith and Conviction needs to be given to none player character Paladins. They are seriously hurt by not having access to such a core ability. Yes, it means you need to keep in mind that you have a Paladin in your group when it comes to roleplaying, but I consider that a good thing.

 

 

is the only observation we agree with.  we suggest an optional talent for npc paladins that allows the paladin to gain faith and conviction bonuses as a matter o' loyalty to the pc.  call it unswerving loyalty or somesuch.  hell, call it "way of the samurai" for all we care, but am agreeing that the gulf between pc and npc paladins is too great.  give faith and conviction boost based on level rather than dispositions for npc paladins.  the desire to add a non pc paladin to a party is hampered due to the current functional faith and conviction penalty for non pc paladins. a single talent is an expensive price to pay given how few is available, but we would likely take such a thing if it were available.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Now a lot of paladins abilities and talents will affect the team EXCEPT paladins themselves, whichs is not very sensible to me. For example, the kill triggerable talents like Strange Mercy,  FOD related talents like Shield Flames and most exhortations, make these also affect pal will give them a boost.

 

This wouldn't be a problem if the boosts to other party members were strong enough. There are plenty of classes which buff themselves, there are classes which buff themselves and others, there is no class that buffs mostly others.

 

---------

 

A bit more Lay on Hands could be nice. I don't think there's a danger this ability will be spammed, because it's single target and limited by Recovery. But then it would completely outclass the Flames. Many class abilities are balanced within a class by making one of them having more uses per encounter. Rogue has one Blinding Strike or two Crippling Strikes, which merely hobble, and target a more common resistance (Fortitude). I mean a buff to Lay on Hands requires a buff to Flames of Devotion.

 

Sworn Enemy is kinda nice. 3/rest, 1/encounter, I'm not opposed to either. It's actually a powerful buff, increasing not just damage (Marked Prey) but also Accuracy. Keep in mind 1/encounter would be actually a downgrade in some ways. You can use Sworn Enemy 3 times in a single encounter ! If there's a fight with 3 bosses, you can tag all 3 with Sworn Enemy. Similarly, Ranger has a powerful debuff Binding Roots, which can be used 5 times in a single encounter. "Stuck" is -20 Reflex, -20 Deflection, -5 Accuracy, vulnerable to Sneak Attack. Roots last 30 seconds.

 

Liberating Exhortation - I'm more bothered that there are so many effect it doesn't work on. Resistance against Charm, Confusion etc is a specialty of Goldpact Paladins so they would need to get something else. Anyway, my point is that make it AoE and all you accomplish is replicating a Priest spell. However, make it clear Charmed, Confused, Dominated and you get a WOW ability. Something people would bring up as a reason to have a Paladin in party!

 

Reviving Exhortation should work as you say if it followed its own description! It's supposed to drain half of restored Endurance, not half of 300.

Edited by b0rsuk
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I only really have two ideas:

 

Liberating Exhortation - Maybe make it grant immunity over the duration to the hostile effects that were suppressed on activation?  Right now the same effect can be immediately reapplied even while the previous one is suppressed which really doesn't make a lot of sense, and this would also vary it a bit from the priest counterpart.

 

Sworn Enemy - There could be two variations, an offensive, which would be the current iteration, and a defensive variation.  The defensive variation would be presented as the same debuff on the enemy but instead would give it -15 Accuracy, as well as the 0.8 Damage multiplier, so basically the opposite of the offensive one.  Would that be too strong though?

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as an aside, there is more than a few npc paladin builds that we would not wanna spend a talent to get full faith and conviction bonuses.  lack o' universal desirability is a positive as we don't want poe talents that is no-brainers.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Give both Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands at level 1.

Merge Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands under a 1/encounter umbrella. (Using Flames of Devotion will eat into the usage of Lay on Hands and vice versa.)

Call the umbrella "Zealous Flames". (This isn't needed, but think about renaming Lay on Hands to something else befitting the name of the umbrella, like Flames of Perserverance. "Lay on Hands" is more of a religious phrase that seems out of place for PoE's martial zealots)

Increase Flames of Devotion to +100% Burn Damage as a baseline. (Because of the nerf from 2 per encounter to 1 per encounter)

Remove Greater Lay on Hands talent.

Remove Intense Flames talent.

Add a new talent that increases Zealous Flames by an additional +1/encounter.

This is minor buff, a major buff, or a horizontal change depending on how you look at it, but the most important thing is that it increases the amount of thought put into utilizing a Paladin as early as level 1.

You would have to think about bursting an enemy down at the start of a fight (that may not hit at all), or saving it for an emergency heal (that will hit).

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Give both Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands at level 1.

Merge Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands under a 1/encounter umbrella. (Using Flames of Devotion will eat into the usage of Lay on Hands and vice versa.)

Call the umbrella "Zealous Flames". (This isn't needed, but think about renaming Lay on Hands to something else befitting the name of the umbrella, like Flames of Perserverance. "Lay on Hands" is more of a religious phrase that seems out of place for PoE's martial zealots)

Increase Flames of Devotion to +100% Burn Damage as a baseline. (Because of the nerf from 2 per encounter to 1 per encounter)

Remove Greater Lay on Hands talent.

Remove Intense Flames talent.

Add a new talent that increases Zealous Flames by an additional +1/encounter.

 

This is minor buff, a major buff, or a horizontal change depending on how you look at it, but the most important thing is that it increases the amount of thought put into utilizing a Paladin as early as level 1.

You would have to think about bursting an enemy down at the start of a fight (that may not hit at all), or saving it for an emergency heal (that will hit).

Given their dearth of active abilities, I'm not sure combining two of their primary actives and then reducing them to once per encounter (or twice with a talent) is a good idea. When the flames/hands are out, the paladin loses a lot of its flavor and even a large boost to attack will lose it's relevance, at later levels, when compared to abilities that can be used more frequently and/or against more targets.

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Give both Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands at level 1.

Merge Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands under a 1/encounter umbrella. (Using Flames of Devotion will eat into the usage of Lay on Hands and vice versa.)

Call the umbrella "Zealous Flames". (This isn't needed, but think about renaming Lay on Hands to something else befitting the name of the umbrella, like Flames of Perserverance. "Lay on Hands" is more of a religious phrase that seems out of place for PoE's martial zealots)

Increase Flames of Devotion to +100% Burn Damage as a baseline. (Because of the nerf from 2 per encounter to 1 per encounter)

Remove Greater Lay on Hands talent.

Remove Intense Flames talent.

Add a new talent that increases Zealous Flames by an additional +1/encounter.

 

This is minor buff, a major buff, or a horizontal change depending on how you look at it, but the most important thing is that it increases the amount of thought put into utilizing a Paladin as early as level 1.

You would have to think about bursting an enemy down at the start of a fight (that may not hit at all), or saving it for an emergency heal (that will hit).

Given their dearth of active abilities, I'm not sure combining two of their primary actives and then reducing them to once per encounter (or twice with a talent) is a good idea. When the flames/hands are out, the paladin loses a lot of its flavor and even a large boost to attack will lose it's relevance, at later levels, when compared to abilities that can be used more frequently and/or against more targets.

 

from a practical pov, he isn't reducing the number of active abilities, at least not early in the game.  currently, at first level, you must needs choose flames Or lay on hands.  furthermore, to current make flames actual useful, you is effective required to take the intense flames talent.  the option presented by ruminate actual allows a typical player to choose more o' those rare abilities as flames and lay on heals has been combined and would be more effective before we reach level 4+ and spent additional talents on them. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Give both Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands at level 1.

Merge Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands under a 1/encounter umbrella. (Using Flames of Devotion will eat into the usage of Lay on Hands and vice versa.)

Call the umbrella "Zealous Flames". (This isn't needed, but think about renaming Lay on Hands to something else befitting the name of the umbrella, like Flames of Perserverance. "Lay on Hands" is more of a religious phrase that seems out of place for PoE's martial zealots)

Increase Flames of Devotion to +100% Burn Damage as a baseline. (Because of the nerf from 2 per encounter to 1 per encounter)

Remove Greater Lay on Hands talent.

Remove Intense Flames talent.

Add a new talent that increases Zealous Flames by an additional +1/encounter.

 

This is minor buff, a major buff, or a horizontal change depending on how you look at it, but the most important thing is that it increases the amount of thought put into utilizing a Paladin as early as level 1.

You would have to think about bursting an enemy down at the start of a fight (that may not hit at all), or saving it for an emergency heal (that will hit).

Given their dearth of active abilities, I'm not sure combining two of their primary actives and then reducing them to once per encounter (or twice with a talent) is a good idea. When the flames/hands are out, the paladin loses a lot of its flavor and even a large boost to attack will lose it's relevance, at later levels, when compared to abilities that can be used more frequently and/or against more targets.

 

 

Paladins are in the same position as most other classes with level 1 per encounter abilities. When a fighter's knockdown or accuracy buff runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor. When a rogue's blinding strike or crippling strike runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor. When a priest's holy radiance runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor(for any battle that doesn't require spells anyways). When a ranger's marked prey or wounded shot runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor. Anytime a class cannot utilize their active abilities for whatever reason, it loses its flavor.

 

I'm not in favor of giving more attentive maintenance to a class that was built to be low maintenance. My suggestion was to make the class require a little more thought, especially at the start of the game. Using one ability at the expense of another requires thought. Using the exact same ability two times(or more) per encounter, regardless of the situation, requires going through the motions.

 

I am in favor of giving people the choice to increase the attentive maintenance of a low maintenance class. Hence, why I suggested a new talent that does exactly that. But choosing to take it means doing so at the expense of a low maintenance talent. This requires additional thought on the part of the player.

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