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Just Right? (Difficulty that is)


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I've seen threads stating combat is too hard. Others stating that it's too easy. So... anyone feel that it's just about right? I do at this point. Combat is generally more challenging to me than it was in most of the IE games, and that is very much a welcome change. The different difficulty levels seems to add an appreciable difference to the overall difficulty, without just making enemies hit harder. So the difficulty slider is far more elegant than we had with IE. I realize that the engagement mechanics are controversial, but I happen to like them. I'm still finding plenty of opportunities to vary my tactics and from one battle to the next. Maybe I don't strictly need to do this, but I am, and am finding combat enjoyable still (I'm still somewhere in Act III).

 

Now, there certainly is still plenty opportunity to tune combat, improve AI, and so forth. I'm not saying otherwise, but overall I feel that the difficulty level of the game has hit a pretty good target.

 

It probably bears noting that this is being stated by a 17 year IE veteran. I picked up the original Baldurs Gate off the shelf at Best Buy shortly after it was released. Well, technically my college roommate at the time did, but he found the game to be too complex and he gifted it to me later that same day. But, I was there when he grabbed it off the shelf, and I think that counts for something. I was utterly oblivious to the impact the contents of that box would have on me.

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In the first Act, playing on Hard, I would agree with you. I did everything I could do before Caed Nua (including Raedric), and then did about 5 levels of Caed Nua, and then did everything in and around Dyrford. Difficulty was great.

 

Now that I've gone into Act II... it's started to get easier. And I expect it to continue to do so. Especially considering that Dyrford is really intended to be done during the later parts of Act II (as opposed to before Act II) and that I found its difficulty to be perfect when played it (instead of when I was supposed to play it).... yeah. I've had some wonderful fights, mostly in Caed Nua and around Dyrford when I did it early. But in general, I would say that the game's difficulty could be a bit higher on Hard. I'd classify my experience in Act I as Hard-ish, and then Act II so far as Normal-ish.

 

I like engagement too. And I do like the idea behind the difficulty levels (more/different enemies instead of just pumping up stats). But I would like to see the latter half of the game get a bit of a buff and to see leveling be a little slower. If Obsidian doesn't change anything significant about the balance in 1.05 (here's hoping they will), I'll probably do my second playthrough with 50% more XP required for each level. Should make the game a bit more rewarding and challenging.

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I think it's just about right. In some sense, the problem is not the game so much as us. Most people posting on these forums have either played the Infinity Engine games or some other games which reward optimization (despite the fact that they're radically different from PoE, the better MMOs do satisfy this property). The moment the system starts giving people like us options, we'll find some technique or combination of techniques which makes things easy. Worse, the very fact that we're on these forums means that we learn these optimal abilities much faster than we would figure them out on our own.

 

To make it really hard for the people who claim it is easy, Obsidian would have to not merely add more monsters and change their abilities (as they did with Hard and PotD), but actually change the rules of the game in a way that eliminates most of the "good" techniques and maybe reduces the XP gain. If they did this in general, the people who aren't on these forums (and that's the overwhelming majority) would be utterly screwed. I guess they can add yet another Ultra PotD difficulty mode, but honestly, even if they do that, you'll have the same people coming back to complain about how the newly optimal abilities (worse the current ones, but still decent) make the game too easy.

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Right at the beginning, just fresh out of the first dungeon, on Hard, that felt alright. Then it slowly drops off until the Stronghold, then bam, downhill from there. It's not just a drop in relative difficulty, but the combat quickly becomes repetitive, rote, predictable and just.. uninteresting.

 

I think it's just about right. In some sense, the problem is not the game so much as us. Most people posting on these forums have either played the Infinity Engine games or some other games which reward optimization (despite the fact that they're radically different from PoE, the better MMOs do satisfy this property). The moment the system starts giving people like us options, we'll find some technique or combination of techniques which makes things easy. Worse, the very fact that we're on these forums means that we learn these optimal abilities much faster than we would figure them out on our own.

 

To make it really hard for the people who claim it is easy, Obsidian would have to not merely add more monsters and change their abilities (as they did with Hard and PotD), but actually change the rules of the game in a way that eliminates most of the "good" techniques and maybe reduces the XP gain. If they did this in general, the people who aren't on these forums (and that's the overwhelming majority) would be utterly screwed. I guess they can add yet another Ultra PotD difficulty mode, but honestly, even if they do that, you'll have the same people coming back to complain about how the newly optimal abilities (worse the current ones, but still decent) make the game too easy.

Why would they be screwed? People haven't been screwed by the IE games. People weren't screwed by.. well.. pretty much any game. I don't understand why people think that the forum is some kind of super-elitist microcosm of genius-level tacticians. Anyone that's played the game past the first Act can already get 90% of the encounters down to a science.

 

One of the most widely criticized aspects of gameplay is that you don't even need to pay attention to anything, and just sorta stumble through the game. I think it's rather insulting to think that people would be screwed if they had to think for a moment. And even so, there are still different difficulties. Let those that well and truly suck play on Easy.

 

You seem to think it's about difficulty and numbers inflation, but it's not. There are concrete issues with the gameplay and a wealth of suggested solutions on the forum. It's not just about it being easy. It's about why it's easy, and it's ultimately not about making it harder, but about forcing you to think or adapt - which of course will make it harder, too, but again, if you want it easy, that option will still be there.

Edited by Luckmann
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If you are saying this is harder than BG I guess you never used Tactics or SCS mod. Those mods let the enemy casters rise to use their abilities as intended and make BG way harder than pillars.

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If you are saying this is harder than BG I guess you never used Tactics or SCS mod. Those mods let the enemy casters rise to use their abilities as intended and make BG way harder than pillars.

That not important. With mods I could make PoE the hardest game ever. 

 

Not that PoE is even close to the same league as vanilla BG in terms of difficulty. PoE on Path of the damned is easier than BG on normal. But, whatever. The real issue with PoE isn't that it's too easy, but why it's so easy; as Luckmann has already pointed out.

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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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I wonder if there's a certain way the dev's intended the game to be played. For instance I reached level 13 of Od Nua and I probably haven't finished half of the Act 2 main quest, and soon realised I was trapped in the mega dungeon. I didn't find the mega-dungeon too challenging even though I was under-levelled (except for one fight on level 11). Now that I've gone back to the main quest prior to getting trapped, I'm breezing through Defiance Bay, auto-attacking and steam rolling everything. I did something similar with Raedric's Hold. I went to Caed Nua first, did the first seven levels of Od Nua and then went to Raedric's Hold afterwards and found it relatively easy.

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If you are saying this is harder than BG I guess you never used Tactics or SCS mod. Those mods let the enemy casters rise to use their abilities as intended and make BG way harder than pillars.

Of course I've played with those mods, as well as Improved Anvil which makes those mods seem like training wheels mode. But those are fan made mods, and certainly aren't included in the baseline when I compare PoE to the IE games.

"Now to find a home for my other staff."
My Project Eternity Interview with Adam Brennecke

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Are we the right people to judge the difficulty of this game though ?

Just by being active in the forum makes you a niche of a niche market. Or to puff up ourselves, we could say we represent the best of the best of all Pillars of Eternity players.

 

Many in this forum are IE veterans, some even did so with mods that made the game more difficult.

Some have tried the game in Beta.

Some have deep knowledge of the game mechanics having backed it in Kickstarter and reading the update.

Some have read character builds, combat tips and tricks in the forum even before installing the game.

We represent years of accumulated game knowledge.

 

If Obsidian were to cater to this super-niche player segment then they'd be just killing themselves. Many reviews have stated that even in Normal difficulty the game is rather difficult for the reviewers. Imagine if the difficulty is raised (way) higher as some in this forum would like it to be: It'd be lucky to break 100k in sales.

 

Mod the game yourself. Wait for a mod. Restrict yourself from using the more powerful combat techniques. Whatever suits you except whining about it.

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Easy is definitely way too easy for me. Normal is a nice combo of not-very-taxing/not stressful but those certain tough fights still need my attention if I don't want to wipe. I suspect Hard would be about where I'd want it (for repeats) ... if I wanted combat to be harder/more taxing, that is. I don't find combat interesting enough to want combat to last longer, however, which to me is all the harder difficulties achieve. So for me, Normal is about right.

“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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If you are saying this is harder than BG I guess you never used Tactics or SCS mod. Those mods let the enemy casters rise to use their abilities as intended and make BG way harder than pillars.

That not important. With mods I could make PoE the hardest game ever. 

 

Not that PoE is even close to the same league as vanilla BG in terms of difficulty. PoE on Path of the damned is easier than BG on normal. But, whatever. The real issue with PoE isn't that it's too easy, but why it's so easy; as Luckmann has already pointed out.

 

You would have to completely chsnge the game mechanics and enemy classes to accomplish that. ;)

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If you are saying this is harder than BG I guess you never used Tactics or SCS mod. Those mods let the enemy casters rise to use their abilities as intended and make BG way harder than pillars.

That not important. With mods I could make PoE the hardest game ever. 

 

Not that PoE is even close to the same league as vanilla BG in terms of difficulty. PoE on Path of the damned is easier than BG on normal. But, whatever. The real issue with PoE isn't that it's too easy, but why it's so easy; as Luckmann has already pointed out.

 

You would have to completely chsnge the game mechanics and enemy classes to accomplish that. ;)

 

No I wouldn't. I'd just buff the crap out of the enemy's stats and spam them everywhere. 

"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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Are we the right people to judge the difficulty of this game though ?

Just by being active in the forum makes you a niche of a niche market. Or to puff up ourselves, we could say we represent the best of the best of all Pillars of Eternity players.

 

Many in this forum are IE veterans, some even did so with mods that made the game more difficult.

Some have tried the game in Beta.

Some have deep knowledge of the game mechanics having backed it in Kickstarter and reading the update.

Some have read character builds, combat tips and tricks in the forum even before installing the game.

We represent years of accumulated game knowledge.

 

If Obsidian were to cater to this super-niche player segment then they'd be just killing themselves. Many reviews have stated that even in Normal difficulty the game is rather difficult for the reviewers. Imagine if the difficulty is raised (way) higher as some in this forum would like it to be: It'd be lucky to break 100k in sales.

 

Mod the game yourself. Wait for a mod. Restrict yourself from using the more powerful combat techniques. Whatever suits you except whining about it.

And this would make perfect sense. If they hadn't included a mode called path of the Damned. Which could never have been targeted at anyone other than veterans of this kind of game. Even the description of hard mode suggests this. But path is far too easy, so no, it's not just right at least for that mode imo.

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If you are saying this is harder than BG I guess you never used Tactics or SCS mod. Those mods let the enemy casters rise to use their abilities as intended and make BG way harder than pillars.

That not important. With mods I could make PoE the hardest game ever. 

 

Not that PoE is even close to the same league as vanilla BG in terms of difficulty. PoE on Path of the damned is easier than BG on normal. But, whatever. The real issue with PoE isn't that it's too easy, but why it's so easy; as Luckmann has already pointed out.

 

You would have to completely chsnge the game mechanics and enemy classes to accomplish that. wink.png

 

 

While that may be true to a degree, there are a lot of improvements possible without a complete systems overhaul, and certainly wouldn't need enemy classes to change for sure (but feel free to kill their infinite ability- and spell-use). The biggest hurdle to overcome would be Sawyeran hangups, like immunities, meaningful counters, arbitrary combat restrictions, counterspelling, etc.

 

Are we the right people to judge the difficulty of this game though ?

Just by being active in the forum makes you a niche of a niche market. Or to puff up ourselves, we could say we represent the best of the best of all Pillars of Eternity players.

 

Many in this forum are IE veterans, some even did so with mods that made the game more difficult.

Some have tried the game in Beta.

Some have deep knowledge of the game mechanics having backed it in Kickstarter and reading the update.

Some have read character builds, combat tips and tricks in the forum even before installing the game.

We represent years of accumulated game knowledge.

 

If Obsidian were to cater to this super-niche player segment then they'd be just killing themselves. Many reviews have stated that even in Normal difficulty the game is rather difficult for the reviewers. Imagine if the difficulty is raised (way) higher as some in this forum would like it to be: It'd be lucky to break 100k in sales.

 

Mod the game yourself. Wait for a mod. Restrict yourself from using the more powerful combat techniques. Whatever suits you except whining about it.

We're exactly the right people to judge difficulty. There are different difficulties for a reason, and even casual nooblets have criticized the difficulty and systemic issues in the game. You say that we represent years of accumulated game knowledge, but the thing is, still today, with the IE games, I learn things. I haven't gotten that pinned down to a science, I haven't unlocked a formula that I can apply on 90% of everything and just keep going, and I certainly can't boot up the game and not pay attention to anything, just kinda fall into encounters and bumble my way forward like a drunk in a china shop.

 

Like Namutree said, the biggest issue isn't really that the game isn't hard, which is why inflated numbers like Path of the Damned won't help, or just "increasing the difficulty" won't help. The issue is why the game is easy, which is discussed extensively most recently here, here, here, here and here, along with several others threads dealing specifically with related issues, such as armour dichotomy, the attribute system, and experience bloat.

 

"Mods will fix it" is the most naive cry of the ignorant, not just in general, but for this game in particular, because you have to fight it tooth and nail to mod it, if you can even figure out how to. Take a simple thing as changing Attributes. Should be easy, right, I mean, it's just some simple bonuses by Attribute, right? Wrong. I know. I tried. I couldn't even be sure what I should be editing.

 

Saying that people should restrict themselves and to actively shoot themselves in the foot is ridiculous. We're not talking about cheesing encounters or abusing the AI. We're not talking about unintended exploits. We're talking about root gameplay issues that results in rote and predictable combat that in no way forces you to ever re-evaluate what you are doing, react to what is going on, or change your tactical approach; and if you consider strategy, well, no, there's really no strategies to think of.

Edited by Luckmann

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But why should Obsidian follow your (our) every whims ?*

We already bought the game. Most of us will buy the expansion and sequels anyways, no matter what we say in this forum.

Those who starve for IE-like CRPGs gonna buy Pillars of Eternity anyways.

 

As mentioned we represent a tiny minority who are very vocal.

Business-wise they should somehow make the game more appealing to the wider masses.

Increasing the difficulty is counterproductive to that.

Catering to the tiny minority is counterproductive to that.

 

I simply do not see the logic behind increasing the difficulty when the numbers of player is already so low.

 

*

Moreover I just noticed you have freakin' 2500 posts in the forum.

How is it you dont realize that you (even more than most in the forum) are completely, absolutely in the minority and do not experience the game the same way as most of us who did not go into the game knowing it inside and out ?

After 2.5k post, it sounds like it is time to move on.

Edited by Iankas
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well even I didnt know anything of the game beforehand,i noticed some problems with combat during my first playtrough. take pathing for example. if you look at how a group of mele enemies behave when they clash whith you. often a few of them wil go left-right-left right, sometimes for a few seconds, sometimes in circle for half of the fight, sometimes even tilting while standing in place. when you notice that, and pay attention to it, it becomes obvious that the enemies pathfinding has gone bonkers and it doesnt know where to go and how to get there.

 

this happens to player characters aswell, but you are able to manualy correct that

there is a list of such tehnical issues that make the fights easier than they were obviously planned to be

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PIllars of eternty (Hard) 1st playtrough: 155h, 38 m (main Ranger with bear(bow), Eder, Durance(off tank), Hirvais(off tank), Kana(ranged), Aloth/GM)
PIllars of eternty (PtoD) 2nd playtrough: 88h 30 m (main Bleak Walker Paladin, Eder, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue (ranged) Cypher(wand)
(not counting reloads and experimenting)
status i love the game, hate the bugs, and wish for better AI and Pathfinding

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78749-needed-qualyty-of-life-improvements-information-and-transparency/

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But why should Obsidian follow your (our) every whims ?*

We already bought the game. Most of us will buy the expansion and sequels anyways, no matter what we say in this forum.

Those who starve for IE-like CRPGs gonna buy Pillars of Eternity anyways.

 

As mentioned we represent a tiny minority who are very vocal.

Business-wise they should somehow make the game more appealing to the wider masses.

Increasing the difficulty is counterproductive to that.

Catering to the tiny minority is counterproductive to that.

 

I simply do not see the logic behind increasing the difficulty when the numbers of player is already so low.

 

*

Moreover I just noticed you have freakin' 2500 posts in the forum.

How is it you dont realize that you (even more than most in the forum) are completely, absolutely in the minority and do not experience the game the same way as most of us who did not go into the game knowing it inside and out ?

After 2.5k post, it sounds like it is time to move on.

 

They shouldn't cater to our whims. Not by a long shot. But they should listen to the discussions, because a lot of them are quite throughout. And it's still, well, yes, most of us have already bought the game, but if you don't listen to good arguments, you soon find yourself about as loved as Electronic Arts or Bioware.

 

There's already been a lot of people mentioning how, while they think that PoE is overall good, they wouldn't back another Kickstarter. Others have expressed doubts, but have chosen to give Obsidian the benefit of the doubt after recognizing the potential of PoE, and wants to see in what direction it heads, which to me boils down in two directions, exemplified to me by Baldur's Gate vs. Dragon Age 2. :lol:

 

And relating my number of posts to anything is.. odd, but more than that, you talk about minority/majority. Not only do I not at all feel like the people on the forum is in the minority when it comes to these discussions, but it ultimately has no bearing on anything, it is just argumentum ad populum, the dumbest argumentative error.

 

Finally, I don't know the game inside and out. Namutree does not know the game inside and out. PrimeJunta does not know the game inside and out. Sensuki... probably does.

 

I honestly have no real idea how a lot of things in PoE is actually supposed to work, partly due to unclear rules and a systemic obtuseness, but ultimately because there's really no need to pay attention to anything. This is part of the problem. Stumbling through the game should be possible on Easy, not on Hard.

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But why should Obsidian follow your (our) every whims ?*

We already bought the game. Most of us will buy the expansion and sequels anyways, no matter what we say in this forum.

Those who starve for IE-like CRPGs gonna buy Pillars of Eternity anyways.

 

As mentioned we represent a tiny minority who are very vocal.

Business-wise they should somehow make the game more appealing to the wider masses.

Increasing the difficulty is counterproductive to that.

Catering to the tiny minority is counterproductive to that.

 

I simply do not see the logic behind increasing the difficulty when the numbers of player is already so low.

 

*

Moreover I just noticed you have freakin' 2500 posts in the forum.

How is it you dont realize that you (even more than most in the forum) are completely, absolutely in the minority and do not experience the game the same way as most of us who did not go into the game knowing it inside and out ?

After 2.5k post, it sounds like it is time to move on.

 

Difficulty is to many people a much bigger deal than you are making out, hence the several huge threads on the forum with many different posters. Making a super hard difficulty was one of their stated goals, it's one of the reasons I backed the game; the fact many people love these games to include really challenging combat was acknowledged during the Kickstarter. Difficulty is an inherent part of making a classic single player game, and is overlooked all too often.

 

Case in point which goes against your theory, Larian are currently developing a nightmare mode for Divinity Original Sin, as part of a patch, including entirely reworked encounters. They have acknowledged that having made a really interesting combat system, there's little point in having difficulty fall off even on hard halfway through the game, hence they listen to the fanbase and work on something for them.

 

I literally cannot fathom why people have something against upping the difficulty/AI/encounter design for possibly Hard and certainly Path of the Damned level. The AI is awful and many encounters are very samey; if you find it enjoyable on normal that's really great, but many people find that the vast majority of the game is piss easy on Path of the Damned and one tactic works for the vast majority of encounters. For me that prevents the game being an absolute classic - which I think it nearly is by the way. I do not think it's reasonable to expect me to use a naked Eder with DPS talents to have an enjoyable experience (and that still wouldn't solve the samey encounter/terrible AI issues).

 

Nobody is saying cater to this "niche" INSTEAD of making the game appeal to masses, it is AS WELL AS. Many many old Baldur's Gate etc. players bought this game and are a significant part of the fanbase. Funnily enough there are also newer players who enjoy challenging games too, see the success of Dark Souls and the modern RTS/MOBA gamer. A decent number of these people, from these forums and elsewhere, are a bit disappointed with the current level of challenge in the game (you can't make a hard mode by just randomly inflating stats and shoving a few more creatures in, that's lazy). Nobody is whining, just constructively pointing out ways to improve the difficulty at higher levels for this game and POE2. 

 

I agree ultimately a MOD will be the best option, but the baseline difficulty is the one thing that stands out to me in this game as not being top quality, the rest I absolutely love. It is perfectly possible to increase difficulty on Path/maybe Hard without alienating people who just want to chill and do Easy/Normal.

 

I get that they had and have other priorities for release and the short term, completely get that. The patches are for improvements and polish however, so people hope they will address one of the big weaknesses and hence give feedback.

Edited by ComplyOrDie
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They shouldn't cater to our whims. Not by a long shot. But they should listen to the discussions, because a lot of them are quite throughout. And it's still, well, yes, most of us have already bought the game, but if you don't listen to good arguments, you soon find yourself about as loved as Electronic Arts or Bioware.

 

There's already been a lot of people mentioning how, while they think that PoE is overall good, they wouldn't back another Kickstarter. Others have expressed doubts, but have chosen to give Obsidian the benefit of the doubt after recognizing the potential of PoE, and wants to see in what direction it heads, which to me boils down in two directions, exemplified to me by Baldur's Gate vs. Dragon Age 2.  :lol:

 

And relating my number of posts to anything is.. odd, but more than that, you talk about minority/majority. Not only do I not at all feel like the people on the forum is in the minority when it comes to these discussions, but it ultimately has no bearing on anything, it is just argumentum ad populum, the dumbest argumentative error.

Finally, I don't know the game inside and out. Namutree does not know the game inside and out. PrimeJunta does not know the game inside and out. Sensuki... probably does.

I honestly have no real idea how a lot of things in PoE is actually supposed to work, partly due to unclear rules and a systemic obtuseness, but ultimately because there's really no need to pay attention to anything. This is part of the problem. Stumbling through the game should be possible on Easy, not on Hard.

 

 

Your post numbers represent, at least partly, the amount of time you put into learning about the game. I definitely think that it illustrates quite clearly the huge divide in perception between the no-lifer forum-goers and your average game reviewers, hardcore gamers in their own right, who pointed out in their their reviews that PoE is quite difficult.

Making it even more difficult means it is not accessible to all but the most hardcore of gamers.

 

Saying that it is argumentum ad populum is just idiotic. Do you even understand what it is ?

We are talking about opinions and perceptions. There is no one truth that overrides all other.

In this forum we perceive the game to be not that hard, which I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH.  Just that given that forumgoers already bought the game and most will buy future Obsidian games, they would be wise to focus their efforts elsewhere for the time being.

 

As for EA and Bioware ...

EA is making 150 million of net profit every quarter. Pretty sure most gaming studios would be A-okay being in their position.

 

Difficulty is to many people a much bigger deal than you are making out, hence the several huge threads on the forum with many different posters. Making a super hard difficulty was one of their stated goals, it's one of the reasons I backed the game; the fact many people love these games to include really challenging combat was acknowledged during the Kickstarter. Difficulty is an inherent part of making a classic single player game, and is overlooked all too often.

 

Case in point which goes against your theory, Larian are currently developing a nightmare mode for Divinity Original Sin, as part of a patch, including entirely reworked encounters. They have acknowledged that having made a really interesting combat system, there's little point in having difficulty fall off even on hard halfway through the game, hence they listen to the fanbase and work on something for them.

 

I agree ultimately a MOD will be the best option, but the baseline difficulty is the one thing that stands out to me in this game as not being top quality, the rest I absolutely love. It is perfectly possible to increase difficulty on Path/maybe Hard without alienating people who just want to chill and do Easy/Normal.

 

I get that they had and have other priorities for release and the short term, completely get that. The patches are for improvements and polish however, so people hope they will address one of the big weaknesses and hence give feedback.

 

Divinity OS is a whole different fruit than PoE. Even when it just came out reviewers already pointed out that the difficulty curve goes down the longer the game goes. Here's one quote from RPGFan "Worse yet, mid to late game combat is astonishingly easy on the normal difficulty setting and the frequency of combat increases, as if the developers ran out of other ideas.".  If even game reviewers think this game is too easy, obviously its most fanatic fans will be doubly as vocal in their protest for a "fix".

 

Let me reiterate though.

I definitely think an increase in difficulty would be just fine for me and the most hardcore PoE fans.

More option is not a bad thing.

However given the that there are still areas in the game in need of polish and fixes, difficulty increase seems like it should be way down the priority list.

Edited by Iankas
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They shouldn't cater to our whims. Not by a long shot. But they should listen to the discussions, because a lot of them are quite throughout. And it's still, well, yes, most of us have already bought the game, but if you don't listen to good arguments, you soon find yourself about as loved as Electronic Arts or Bioware.

 

There's already been a lot of people mentioning how, while they think that PoE is overall good, they wouldn't back another Kickstarter. Others have expressed doubts, but have chosen to give Obsidian the benefit of the doubt after recognizing the potential of PoE, and wants to see in what direction it heads, which to me boils down in two directions, exemplified to me by Baldur's Gate vs. Dragon Age 2.  laughing.gif

 

And relating my number of posts to anything is.. odd, but more than that, you talk about minority/majority. Not only do I not at all feel like the people on the forum is in the minority when it comes to these discussions, but it ultimately has no bearing on anything, it is just argumentum ad populum, the dumbest argumentative error.

 

Finally, I don't know the game inside and out. Namutree does not know the game inside and out. PrimeJunta does not know the game inside and out. Sensuki... probably does.

 

I honestly have no real idea how a lot of things in PoE is actually supposed to work, partly due to unclear rules and a systemic obtuseness, but ultimately because there's really no need to pay attention to anything. This is part of the problem. Stumbling through the game should be possible on Easy, not on Hard.

 

Your post numbers represent, at least partly, the amount of time you put into learning about the game. I definitely think that it illustrates quite clearly the huge divide in perception between the no-lifer forum-goers and your average game reviewers, hardcore gamers in their own right, who pointed out in their their reviews that PoE is quite difficult.

Making it even more difficult means it is not accessible to all but the most hardcore of gamers.

 

Saying that it is argumentum ad populum is just idiotic. Do you even understand what it is ?

We are talking about opinions and perceptions. There is no one truth that overrides all other.

In this forum we perceive the game to be not that hard, which I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH.  Just that given that forumgoers already bought the game and most will buy future Obsidian games, they would be wise to focus their efforts elsewhere for the time being.

 

As for EA and Bioware ...

EA is making 150 million of net profit every quarter. Pretty sure most gaming studios would be A-okay being in their position.

 

No. The post count represents how many posts you have on the boards. See, the vast majority of posts are posts like this, spent educating people on subjects in general, rather than actually actively accumulating knowledge of the game or it's mechanics.

 

The only difference between us and anyone else is one of analysis, that we can collectively figure out why or how things interact by examining what's going on. It doesn't change how we play the game or how the game plays. Do you see many threads discussing interesting tactics? Do you see many threads on the exploitation of mechanics? Of course you don't. Practically the only conversations going on in that vein is discussions on PotD Solo.

 

Making it "even more difficult" is not what it is about, and that's what we've been trying to get through your thick skull. And even if it was to become more difficult, it would in no way become "less accessible to all but the most hardcore of gamers". This is what difficulties are for. What we tend to discuss are real, systemic issues that results in overly simplistic gameplay, and I have repeatedly criticized the emphasis on difficulty itself, because if difficulty was the point, numbers bloat and stats inflation would be the solution. It is entirely possible to create virtual no-win scenarios by simply bumping up the opposition.

 

And since you don't seem to understand the term: Argumentum ad Populum. The amount of people, big or small, is irrelevant to the actual argument. "Vocal minority" or "silent majority", or variations thereof, whether true or false, are irrelevant buzzwords used to discredit or disparage the opposition and inflate the own position.

 

As for EAWare.. well.

 

McDonalds quarterly reports are in the region of $6 Billions in the U.S. alone.

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You sound like you looked up argumentum ad populum on Wikipedia and just wrote it here to sound vaguely intellectual.

We are talking about how the difficulty / complexity in PoE is perceived. Something that is inherently subjective.

Objective claim -> same truth value for everyone ("earth is spherical")

Subjective claim -> different truth value for different people ("Anna is pretty")

Maybe learn the basics before you "educate" others ?

 

Most posts in General Discussion obviously wont pertain to tactics as there is a sub-forum just for those discussion in the "Strategies" subforum. A sub-forum which is full of tactics that would break the game; hence me contending those who are ridiculously active in the forum are not the best judge for the game's difficulty.
 
There's certainly a lot of argument to be made that the game can seem simple by around the mid-game at least.
But again, until someone comes up with an extensive documention on how it could be improved AND create a mod / patch for PoE. I just dont see how whining about it incessantly would solve anything.
 
In any case I'm done with this thread. Unlike some, I dont have all the time in the world.
 
**

Here's ad hominem for you since you love fallacies so much :instead of trying to "educate" people on the internet, perhaps you should look for work instead since you oh so proudly display for all the world to see that you're "destitute and nearing homeless" therefore didn't even buy the game...

Edited by Iankas
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You sound like you looked up argumentum ad populum on Wikipedia and just wrote it here to sound vaguely intellectual.

We are talking about how the difficulty / complexity in PoE is perceived. Something that is inherently subjective.

Objective claim -> same truth value for everyone ("earth is spherical")

Subjective claim -> different truth value for different people is ("Anna is pretty")

Maybe learn the basics before you "educate" others ?

 

Most posts in General Discussion obviously wont pertain to tactics as there is a sub-forum just for those discussion in the "Strategies" subforum. A sub-forum which is full of tactics that would break the game; hence me contending those who are ridiculously active in the forum are not the best judge for the game's difficulty.
 
There's certainly a lot of argument to be made that the game can seem simple by around the mid-game at least.
But again, until someone comes up with an extensive documention on how it could be improved AND create a mod / patch for PoE. I just dont see how whining about it incessantly would solve anything.
 
In any case I'm done with this thread. Unlike some, I dont have all the time in the world.
 
**

Here's ad hominem for you since you love fallacies so much :instead of trying to "educate" people on the internet, perhaps you should look for work instead since you oh so proudly display for all the world to see that you're "destitute and nearing homeless" therefore didn't even buy the game...

 

If you read the Hard mode is too easy easy thread you would see extensive discussion on how it can be made better.

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http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72554-hard-mode-is-too-easy/

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77341-hard-mode-is-too-easy-part-2/

 

32 pages with mostly excellent feedback about why the difficulty becomes too easy in the game. difficulty isn't so much the issue, it's the reverse difficulty curve that needs to be killed with fire.

Edited by Justinian
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You sound like you looked up argumentum ad populum on Wikipedia and just wrote it here to sound vaguely intellectual.

We are talking about how the difficulty / complexity in PoE is perceived. Something that is inherently subjective.

Objective claim -> same truth value for everyone ("earth is spherical")

Subjective claim -> different truth value for different people is ("Anna is pretty")

Maybe learn the basics before you "educate" others ?

 

That's just it, it's not inherently subjective. There are quantifiable issues with actual solutions. But even so, if it was inherently subjective, it does in no way mean that there are no logical arguments to be had on the matter, or that argumentum ad populum is suddenly permissible, or somehow valid. Saying "X amount of people say Y, therefore Y is correct" is arguably even worse on a subjective, unquantifiable matter. But even so, only arguably.

 

Most posts in General Discussion obviously wont pertain to tactics as there is a sub-forum just for those discussion in the "Strategies" subforum. A sub-forum which is full of tactics that would break the game; hence me contending those who are ridiculously active in the forum are not the best judge for the game's difficulty.

 

I guess that comes down to what you consider "break the game". There's a good argument that the game is broken, but I see very little discussions on the topic in the vein that you describe. The fact is rather that it is painfully easy to trivialize gameplay without having to break the game, exploit game mechanics, or otherwise resorting to degenerate gameplay at all.

 

There's certainly a lot of argument to be made that the game can seem simple by around the mid-game at least.

But again, until someone comes up with an extensive documention on how it could be improved AND create a mod / patch for PoE. I just dont see how whining about it incessantly would solve anything.

 

It's not whining. Most of the discussions are very constructive, discounting the fact that there's a sense of constant repetition as clueless people such as yourself come into the discussions without even reading the threads in which they want to participate. If anything is whining, it is you, whining about people that are discussing systemic issues and what to do with them.

 

The "extensive documentation" is already there. The "mods will fix it" cry of the ignorant has no basis in reality. We're examining the subject for the purpose of learning more and discussing it in the hopes that Obsidian takes notice for the future, because there are many concrete ways aspects of the game could be improved on a professional level. Especially considering that many of the pieces are already there.

 

In any case I'm done with this thread. Unlike some, I dont have all the time in the world.

 

**

Here's ad hominem for you since you love fallacies so much :instead of trying to "educate" people on the internet, perhaps you should look for work instead since you oh so proudly display for all the world to see that you're "destitute and nearing homeless" therefore didn't even buy the game...

Ah, yes, of course. Let me just strap on my job helmet, and squeeze down into a job cannon and fire off into job land, where jobs grow on jobbies! There couldn't possibly be something else at play, so let me just get right on that, your grace.

 

 

Edit:

If you read the Hard mode is too easy easy thread you would see extensive discussion on how it can be made better.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72554-hard-mode-is-too-easy/

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77341-hard-mode-is-too-easy-part-2/

 

32 pages with mostly excellent feedback about why the difficulty becomes too easy in the game. difficulty isn't so much the issue, it's the reverse difficulty curve that needs to be killed with fire.

I think it's futile arguing with the intellectually disinclined. I already linked the most recent extensive topics that I could think of:

 

[...]

 

Like Namutree said, the biggest issue isn't really that the game isn't hard, which is why inflated numbers like Path of the Damned won't help, or just "increasing the difficulty" won't help. The issue is why the game is easy, which is discussed extensively most recently here, here, here, here and here, along with several others threads dealing specifically with related issues, such as armour dichotomy, the attribute system, and experience bloat.

 

[...]

My futile hope is that a few devs actually sits down and goes through some of the bigger threads in their entirety, not just these few.

Edited by Luckmann
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