Why do Ciphers start with full focus?

[MadDemiurg]

 

Funny again how people are suggesting HUGE nerfs for cipher and buffs to wizard even though the later has much more impact on difficult fights in my experience if played right. Really, cipher gets a lot of its "OP" fame only because most people don't know how to use caster properly and cipher with his spells looks better than auto attack classes (with proper optimization the difference is not as huge as you might imagine though, L6 spells aside).

 

It's like D&D warlock vs D&D wiz/cleric/druid. The former doesn't hold a candle to the later. It's better here, since pure casters are not as OP, but even now are more important overall, and if per encounter spells continue to progress like that in expansions cipher will be garbage tier compared to them by level 15.

 

I didn't suggest a buff to the wizard/cleric/druid. What I proposed was a CHOICE to reduce their ceiling for an increase to their floor. If you don't choose the talent, then what I proposed is a straight up nerf to their ceiling.

 

Baking the Cipher's starting focus into a talent isn't a "huge" nerf either. Theres an opportunity cost associated with it. You either choose to take the talent for a one time burst of focus at the start, or choose to take a damage talent that not only improves your DPS, but also increases your focus gain per second. Its still a nerf, but its not "huge".

 

Well, your suggestion was one of the more sensible ones, although that talent would become an auto pick then, which is bad. I'm speaking about suggestions like "remove starting focus AND reduce focus generation AND nerf the CC".

 

As I said, I don't think removing starting focus would improve gameplay of the class, it would make it much more dull if anything. If some spells are OP, nerf these spells (not to the point of uselessness though). Some cipher spells indeed are OP, but there are not that many OP spells if you go through the spell list. Some are outright bad, and need buffs on the contrary.

Edited April 14, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[1varangian]

I'm still stuck on why Ciphers need to hit people with a weapon to be able to use psychic powers. And if they are sucking their souls why does it work with ranged weapons?

 

Soul whip could be a separate close range ability that would inflict small amounts of damage while replenishing their focus. That I'd buy.

 

And level 1 characters with glowing weapons is a bit much. Hope the vfx was more subtle since it almost always on.

[AncientToaster]

Mind Blades and Mental Binding are so ridiculously strong it makes everything else look ****.  Most of my fights revolve around my other characters attacking or doing whatever, and Grieving Mother spamming those two abilities.  As well as Durance's +DR spell, that spell is super important as well, but only in more difficult fights.

 

I get what the Cipher is supposed to be, but right now it feels way too strong.

 

Mind Blades aren't really that strong. My Cipher w/ 18 Might needs to use it multiple times a fight to kill anything substantial. Little critters that die from Eder don't need spells anyway, so that doesn't count. Mental Binding is pretty crazy though, it's good from start to finish.

[RedSocialKnight]

Cipher is a hobby-horse class of the designers, hip, setting-specific and utterly over-indulged.

 

Well, that's fine. It's good to have a setting-specific magic system, with mechanics that emphasize how souls work in Eora.

 

However, being a Cipher works so similarly with being a Watcher that even characters within the setting get confused about it.

 

I think it would have made sense to just combine the two: eliminate Cipher as a separate class, but roll the focus mechanic in with the PC's special Watcher powers -- beefing those up considerably. Cipher/Watchers would be as rare in the setting as Watchers are now -- and this wouldn't require much of a change to the story, only the removal of Lady Webb's detectives.

 

This would clarify the lore, make the added story opportunities for a Cipher PC available to all players, and help with the balance problem. Too lat now of course, but it's what I would have done.

 

I currently roll with two Ciphers in the party, and I'm a tiny bit scared for my second playthrough, which will be PotD and avoid the class altogether.

Edited April 14, 2015 by RedSocialKnight

[AncientToaster]

 

Cipher is a hobby-horse class of the designers, hip, setting-specific and utterly over-indulged. It's like a dungeon master's favourite NPC, the one that never dies and pops up everywhere while the players roll their eyes.

 

 

This.

 

It's painfully clear that the developers were playing favorites with the classes. Cipher got all the love cause they invented it. Wizard and Paladin clearly received quite a bit of neglect, comparatively.

 

 

How's that Kool Aid?

[Philomorph]

I never thought this was a problem because I've been playing my Cipher as a melee class because I guess I thought they could only gain focus from melee weapons, so it was kind of self-limiting for me. What if that were actually the case... would it seem more balanced to you guys?

[RedSocialKnight]

I never thought this was a problem because I've been playing my Cipher as a melee class because I guess I thought they could only gain focus from melee weapons, so it was kind of self-limiting for me. What if that were actually the case... would it seem more balanced to you guys?

 

I play my PC cipher like that too, just because a gish with finesse weapons is my favorite character type.

 

I still roll face but I also die a lot, so I think this is a good idea. And it makes sense that you'd have to be close to drain people's brains.

[anameforobsidian]

The only things that I think need serious balancing on the cipher is their focus at really high levels (70 is a lot to start with), and the area of amplified wave.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I see no problem keeping the CIpher as is and helping out the other classes if they need it.

[illathid]

Ciphers shouldn't start with zero focus. But ciphers shouldn't start with full focus, either. 60% is probably about right.

Right now they get 50% of available focus at the start of an encounter. It actually reminds me of how mages work in WFRP tabletop.

[MReed]

My two cents:

 

Cyphers should get back half focus only after a rest -- otherwise, one of the two rules would apply:

* Their focus only regenerates when they do damage -- no automatic reset to 50%. In exchange, the cap on the amount of focus they could maintain after combat would be eliminated.

* Their focus would be capped at 50% when out of combat (same as it is today), but would not be /reset/ to that level if it was less.

 

The first is obviously more favorable to the cypher, but both have the desired effect of discouraging cypher spell use in routine combat encounters.

 

On the other hand, I'm not certain what the problem is if the cypher uses his abilities in encounters that the party would likely win /anyway/, but if this is a problem that needs to be addressed then one of the two above solutions would seem to be the way to go.

 

Forcing the cypher to start with zero focus, on the other hand, turn the class into an inferior copy of the chanter, and that' doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I'd say just tweak Ciphers' starting focus down a bit so that they always start with slightly less than they need to cast their top-level power, rather than slightly less than they need to cast it twice. Otherwise leave gain, costs, etc. the same. 

[STiAT]

They're just hell of fine, being great dds in the beginning of combat, you can pull them out later and re-engage them to gain focus after the fighter has the monsters again.

 

They're fine. As you have to deal with Monks "wounds" system, you have to deal with Ciphers "focus" System, pulling in, pulling out of close combat. It's part of the gameplay, and as I'd say part of maintaining strategies.

[MReed]

They're just hell of fine, being great dds in the beginning of combat, you can pull them out later and re-engage them to gain focus after the fighter has the monsters again.

 

They're fine. As you have to deal with Monks "wounds" system, you have to deal with Ciphers "focus" System, pulling in, pulling out of close combat. It's part of the gameplay, and as I'd say part of maintaining strategies.

 

Um, you don't have to pull them "into and out of close combat" -- they regain focus just fine from ranged weapons.  In fact, one of the suggestions in this thread is to change that, so they must used melee weapons to regain focus (although I think that's massive overkill -- I might go for reducing focus gain when a ranged weapon is used, though).

[Daemonjax]

My two cents:

 

Cyphers should get back half focus only after a rest -- otherwise, one of the two rules would apply:

* Their focus only regenerates when they do damage -- no automatic reset to 50%. In exchange, the cap on the amount of focus they could maintain after combat would be eliminated.

* Their focus would be capped at 50% when out of combat (same as it is today), but would not be /reset/ to that level if it was less.

 

The first is obviously more favorable to the cypher, but both have the desired effect of discouraging cypher spell use in routine combat encounters.

 

On the other hand, I'm not certain what the problem is if the cypher uses his abilities in encounters that the party would likely win /anyway/, but if this is a problem that needs to be addressed then one of the two above solutions would seem to be the way to go.

 

Forcing the cypher to start with zero focus, on the other hand, turn the class into an inferior copy of the chanter, and that' doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

 

Either of those changes would create an incentive to artificially extend combat in order to power-up your cipher for the next battle.

 

While that may sound interesting at first, it would become very annoying in practice.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Daemonjax

[CriticalFailure]

I'm not interested in entering a debate about overpoweredness and nerfs and that sort of stuff. That said:

 

I like ciphers because casting magic most of the time and shooting occasionally is more fun to me than the other way around + resting to regain spells. It makes me feel more like a "true caster", so to speak.

 

If you think that focus is too high as it is, maybe you can, you know... not use it fully? There's no need to ruin the class for those of us who like the way it plays now.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I'm not interested in entering a debate about overpoweredness and nerfs and that sort of stuff. That said:

 

I like ciphers because casting magic most of the time and shooting occasionally is more fun to me than the other way around + resting to regain spells. It makes me feel more like a "true caster", so to speak.

 

If you think that focus is too high as it is, maybe you can, you know... not use it fully? There's no need to ruin the class for those of us who like the way it plays now.

 

 

Oh, the Cipher is my favorite class. It's just that from level 9-12 or so it's so powerful it trivializes the content. Amplified Wave is ridiculonk, and chain casting Mental Binding isn't much different. 

 

To be fair a lot of classes have this issue, Gaze of the Adragan trivializes the endboss, etc. The *main* issue is that other casting classes need more per-encounter utility. But it wouldn't hurt to make ciphers have a *slightly* slower start, just so they couldn't always open every fight with their biggest whammy.

 

They sortof have the inverse problem from Chanters. Just like the fight is always over before Chanters get to use an Invocation, most fights are usually over before high-level Ciphers need to attack with a weapon. Just like Chanters should probably start combat with a couple phrases "in the tank," at least at higher level, Ciphers should probably start with slightly less focus "in the tank" (at least unless they take the "Greater Focus" talent, which conversely should do more than it does; it sucks now).

 

VVV But I do like them! I just want playing them to be a little more challenging at the top end. If I didn't like them at all I wouldn't play them and wouldn't have any opinion! VV

Edited April 15, 2015 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[AGX-17]

Eh... If you don't like 'em, don't use 'em.

 

Is there really anything more to this than that?

[brionkj]

 

 

 

 Ciphers should probably start with slightly less focus "in the tank" (at least unless they take the "Greater Focus" talent, which conversely should do more than it does; it sucks now).

 

 

Kinda agreed with this idea instead of dropping it to 0. Perhaps roughly enough to cast half the level of their maximum level powers eg. A cipher with who has max level 4 powers should be able to cast their level 2 powers with the starting focus in their "tank". That said I have not really explored the focus gain of a non-blunderbuss Ciphers to really make a proper estimate of what their focus gain rate is like...

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

 

 

 Ciphers should probably start with slightly less focus "in the tank" (at least unless they take the "Greater Focus" talent, which conversely should do more than it does; it sucks now).

 

 

Kinda agreed with this idea instead of dropping it to 0. Perhaps roughly enough to cast half the level of their maximum level powers eg. A cipher with who has max level 4 powers should be able to cast their level 2 powers with the starting focus in their "tank". That said I have not really explored the focus gain of a non-blunderbuss Ciphers to really make a proper estimate of what their focus gain rate is like...

 

 

 

Non-blunderbuss ciphers can gain focus pretty quickly too though it's more challenging especially for melee. Over time, the blunderbuss is probably slightly less efficient actually, it's just that it's bursty which is very convenient because it allows you to switch back to casting after one alpha strike. 

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

Cipher is a hobby-horse class of the designers, hip, setting-specific and utterly over-indulged. It's like a dungeon master's favourite NPC, the one that never dies and pops up everywhere while the players roll their eyes.

 

 

This.

 

It's painfully clear that the developers were playing favorites with the classes. Cipher got all the love cause they invented it. Wizard and Paladin clearly received quite a bit of neglect, comparatively.

 

 

How's that Kool Aid?

 

 

Of course it would be equally valid to toss that question, like a grenade, right back at you.

[pacman]

I'd say just tweak Ciphers' starting focus down a bit so that they always start with slightly less than they need to cast their top-level power, rather than slightly less than they need to cast it twice. Otherwise leave gain, costs, etc. the same. 

I agree with this.  Right now they get (at the start of combat) 10 focus + 5 per level.  It is clearly too much. Maybe 5 starting focus per odd-level would be a good amount.  Then they should also change the greater focus talent to apply to starting focus, making it potentially useful instead of useless.

 

Some other cipher changes desperately needed:

-Ectopsychic Echo should have its damage cut at least in half.  Duration should probably be reduced as well.  Average total damage should be well below soul ignition since it can hit many enemies and it targets reflex.

-Mental Binding should probably have average casting time.

[AgentTBC]

Mental Binding needs a BIG nerf.

 

You don't necessarily need to tweak cipher starting focus.  You just need to make it so that you don't generate focus with every Blunderbuss pellet.  Does anybody *not* use a blunderbuss on their cipher?

[pacman]

Mental Binding needs a BIG nerf.

 

You don't necessarily need to tweak cipher starting focus.  You just need to make it so that you don't generate focus with every Blunderbuss pellet.  Does anybody *not* use a blunderbuss on their cipher?

My first game I used an estoc and gained even more focus than with a blunderbuss.  Although I may have had a bug, because I was critting for up to 120 damage (biting whip, death godlike).

 

What if mental binding just made enemies stuck, unless they are already stuck, then it could paralyze?

[MadDemiurg]

 

I'd say just tweak Ciphers' starting focus down a bit so that they always start with slightly less than they need to cast their top-level power, rather than slightly less than they need to cast it twice. Otherwise leave gain, costs, etc. the same. 

I agree with this.  Right now they get (at the start of combat) 10 focus + 5 per level.  It is clearly too much. Maybe 5 starting focus per odd-level would be a good amount.  Then they should also change the greater focus talent to apply to starting focus, making it potentially useful instead of useless.

 

Some other cipher changes desperately needed:

-Ectopsychic Echo should have its damage cut at least in half.  Duration should probably be reduced as well.  Average total damage should be well below soul ignition since it can hit many enemies and it targets reflex.

-Mental Binding should probably have average casting time.

 

Ectopsychic Echo deals a lot of damage, but it is tricky to use. I see it as a high risk high reward spell. Halving its damage would mean it would be worse than antipathetic field and largely mitigated by DT. No good. It can use a nerf, but not this big. Soul Igntion actually needs a buff, it's crap atm.

 

Mental binding clearly needs a nerf, but I kinda like its niche as an emergency CC, ciphers don't have any other "oh ****" buttons. So I'd say just remove the stuck aoe on it so it doesn't freeze groups in their tracks. It would still be a good single target spell, but not as strong.

 

And I still don't see a need for starting focus change, balance the spells instead.

 

 

On a side note, I think it's ridiculous that fighters start combat with 2 or even 3 knockdowns. They should start it with 1 and gain access to the 2nd one after 15 seconds.

Edited April 15, 2015 by MadDemiurg