Are Paladins really that bad?

[Brimsurfer]

Seems better to have a paladin and a fighter than two of either tbh.

Yea but in a party that has no Fighter and no Paladin, if you had a choice between getting either one Paladin or one Fighter..............who would you go with?

 

I haven't played a Fighter before either and I don't know about Paladins also.... and that's why I am asking......but from the comments here and all across the forums, it seems everyone would go with a Fighter, instead of a Paladin and from what I have read it doesn't look like that it would be a 50/50 decision due to various class specific advantages and disadvantages.............

 

And that's an important factor with me since I am going to be the main character of the game and I want to be the one of the characters who makes difference in most aspects of the game, specially combat........and like I said before, I don't want to be second class member of my party. And its kind of disappointing that Paladins are this way, that people are saying that they are better than having a second of any class, specially when there are 11 classes available, to pick from, for your six person party.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Longknife]

They're fine.  It's just one person (Longknife) who hates the for arbitrary reasons based on a few number differences.

 

 

Am I the only one laughing my ass off at the fact that people know my name for providing criticism and are also convinced I have some vendetta against Paladins because I provided criticism regarding how poor their numbers currently are?

 

Like wtf people, seriously chill out. This is like the fourth person to flip out on me because omg I said Paladins aren't the best thing since sliced bread.

 

 

 

Anyways to answer OP, it's not that they're horriawful and undoable, it's just that yes, I would frankly rank them dead last in regards to class rankings. You will never encounter a lost fight and think "I could've won that if I just had a paladin!" This doesn't mean however that Paladins cannot do fine, it's just more of a "if your goal is to be as powerful as possible, don't make a Paladin" sort of thing.

 

 

 

 

Yea but in a party that has no Fighter and no Paladin, if you had a choice between getting either one Paladin or one Fighter..............who would you go with?

 

 

Fighter. And that's exactly the problem.

 

If given an ultimatum between Fighter and Paladin, you'll pick Fighter.

If given an ultimatum between Priest and Paladin, you'll pick Priest.

If given an ultimatum between Rogue and Paladin, you'll pick Rogue.

 

Paladin is a jack-of-all-trades, king of none, but unfortunately it's skills in all respective areas are so sub-par that it's hard to justify picking Paladin if your interest is in a party being as efficient as possible.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Longknife

[eubatham]

Yea but in a party that has no Fighter and no Paladin, if you had a choice between getting either one Paladin or one Fighter..............who would you go with?

 

I haven't played a Fighter before either and I don't know about Paladins also.... and that's why I am asking......but from the comments here and all across the forums, it seems everyone would go with a Fighter, instead of a Paladin and from what I have read it doesn't look like that it would be a 50/50 decision due to various class specific advantages and disadvantages.............

 

And that's an important factor with me since I am going to be the main character of the game and I want to be the one of the characters who makes difference in most aspects of the game, specially combat........and like I said before, I don't want to be second class member of my party. And its kind of disappointing that Paladins are this way, that people are saying that they are better than having a second of any class, specially when there are 11 classes available, to pick from, for your six person party.

 

 

If you have to pick between a Fighter or a Paladin in your party, the only real reason why you might want to pick a Paladin over the Fighter is if both of the following 2 conditions are met;

 

The Paladin is the Player Character. If he or she is not then he or she will not get a crucial buff that adds a LOT of defenses.

You don't have another class in your party that provides buffs, like a Druid, Priest or Chanter and really don't want them. The minor buffs a Paladin provides don't stack with other similar spells from other classes, and other classes have access to more different buffs (and debuffs) so they can adapt much better to each encounter, plus the buffs that other classes bring are often more potent (be it in power or additional effects).

 

You aren't missing on any crucial buffs or utility if you don't run with a Paladin. A fighter is a far superior tank, especially early on, and a class like a Priest or Chanter provide much more utility and buffs while being alright offtanks to help out the fighter. Just stick them in full plate and give them a sword+shield.

 

However, you can finish them game with a Paladin. But again, people are solo'ing this game so it's up to you how much hands you want to tie behind your back. It's not simply a min-max thing, no matter how hard some might scream from the top of their lungs without any form of argumentation.

Edited April 13, 2015 by eubatham

[Infares]

 

They're fine.  It's just one person (Longknife) who hates the for arbitrary reasons based on a few number differences.

 

 

Am I the only one laughing my ass off at the fact that people know my name for providing criticism and are also convinced I have some vendetta against Paladins because I provided criticism regarding how poor their numbers currently are?

 

Like wtf people, seriously chill out. This is like the fourth person to flip out on me because omg I said Paladins aren't the best thing since sliced bread.

 

 

 

Anyways to answer OP, it's not that they're horriawful and undoable, it's just that yes, I would frankly rank them dead last in regards to class rankings. You will never encounter a lost fight and think "I could've won that if I just had a paladin!" This doesn't mean however that Paladins cannot do fine, it's just more of a "if your goal is to be as powerful as possible, don't make a Paladin" sort of thing.

 

 

 

 

Yea but in a party that has no Fighter and no Paladin, if you had a choice between getting either one Paladin or one Fighter..............who would you go with?

 

 

Fighter. And that's exactly the problem.

 

If given an ultimatum between Fighter and Paladin, you'll pick Fighter.

If given an ultimatum between Priest and Paladin, you'll pick Priest.

If given an ultimatum between Rogue and Paladin, you'll pick Rogue.

 

Paladin is a jack-of-all-trades, king of none, but unfortunately it's skills in all respective areas are so sub-par that it's hard to justify picking Paladin if your interest is in a party being as efficient as possible.

But if you already have a fighter, priest, rogue, and chanter, a Paladin makes all of the above do what they do better. AFIK paladin auras stack with Priest buffs, do they not? They're also always on.

[eubatham]

But if you already have a fighter, priest, rogue, and chanter, a Paladin makes all of the above do what they do better. AFIK paladin auras stack with Priest buffs, do they not? They're also always on.

 

The aura's do not stack with priest buffs and heavy fights are spaced far between each other, you'll only miss out something like +6 accuracy on fights against minor minions that die without any effort. 

 

Later in the game when heavy fights start to follow each other up, not only do other buffing classes get even better spells that provide additional damage and defenses, but their first and second spell levels become per encounter (which cover the entire small spectrum of Paladin buffs and much, much more) instead of per rest. Leaving the Paladin, far, far behind them.

Edited April 13, 2015 by eubatham

[Infares]

 

But if you already have a fighter, priest, rogue, and chanter, a Paladin makes all of the above do what they do better. AFIK paladin auras stack with Priest buffs, do they not? They're also always on.

 

The aura's do not stack with priest buffs and heavy fights are spaced far between each other, you'll only miss out something like +6 accuracy on fights against minor minions that die without any effort. 

 

Later in the game when heavy fights start to follow each other up, not only do other buffing classes get even better spells that provide additional damage and defenses, but their first and second spell levels become per encounter (which cover the entire small spectrum of Paladin buffs and much, much more) instead of per rest. Leaving the Paladin, far, far behind them.

Damn. I'd say then that the on-kill skills are primarily what you'd use a paladin for, then, and the only real guaranteed way to proc those is if you're doing that cheese-ass retaliation build and make the Paladin a Moon Godlike. Granted, if you give them Strange Mercy they'd be basically immortal, lol.

[eubatham]

I also like to add that Priests can grab "Inspiring Radiance", which adds a +5 accuracy (for 15 sec) to buff to their 1/encounter ability (Holy Radiance). It also doesn't stack and you can easily use it for every small fight to give your allies that extra accuracy.

Edited April 13, 2015 by eubatham

[iKrivetko]

If "that bad" means "worse than all the other classes", then yes, paladins are that bad.

They are borderline useless when it comes to dps, they have no cc at all, exhortations are only mildly useful and you only start getting them quite late in the game. Paladins are only fairly good for tanking because of their high defenses, but even that is overshadowed by a fighter with their constant recovery, defender, critical defence, unbroken and other stuff that makes them nigh unkillable. So there you have it.

Edited April 13, 2015 by iKrivetko

[Ruminate]

Couple of things to think about:

 

Despite the non-existent description, the Herald property on the Outsworn Buckler is a +5 all defense buff aura. The radius appears to be the same as the other auras and modified by intellect. Its minor, but its something.

 

The Darcozzi Paladin's Inspiring Liberation accuracy buff does stack with all the other accuracy buffs. +16 accuracy to Gaze of Adragan is nothing to sneeze at.

[Incendax]

I also like to add that Priests can grab "Inspiring Radiance", which adds a +5 accuracy (for 15 sec) to buff to their 1/encounter ability (Holy Radiance). It also doesn't stack and you can easily use it for every small fight to give your allies that extra accuracy.

You can use it twice! Once right before the fight, which you immediately regain!

[Infares]

 

I also like to add that Priests can grab "Inspiring Radiance", which adds a +5 accuracy (for 15 sec) to buff to their 1/encounter ability (Holy Radiance). It also doesn't stack and you can easily use it for every small fight to give your allies that extra accuracy.

You can use it twice! Once right before the fight, which you immediately regain!

Pre-1.03, this was true. Not any more, however. You can no longer use Holy Radiance outside of combat.

[Gromnir]

I have a Paladin on the front line and she's doing just fine, dealing damage and taking hits - they are a bit different from the IE times though, they are more of a hybrid class, sacrificing usability for flexibility - so they are worse than a straight fighters or priest, because they are a mix between.

 

You can take them in 2 directions though if I recall correct leveling up - self buff or group buff. I think a self buff Paladin can be quite the heavy hitter.

uhm. we would say that one o' their main shortcomings is their lack o' versatility... though am admitting to lack o' comprehension regarding "usability."

 

 

the paladin is a bit more flexible than a chanter we s'pose... maybe.  by the end o' the game we would say chanters is more flexible as they will have a goodly number o' chants and invocations and a creative player can build a chanter that will be mighty effective in all situations. but paladins?  auras are modal, but for all intents and purposes, they are always active.  the paladin's abilities are, for the most part, situationally useful.  what we mean is, there will be battles in which you won't feel the need or even a desire to use a few o' your abilities.  however, if you happen to have party members knocked out or hobbled, perhaps you have a paladin ability that would make all the difference between success and failure for that encounter.  dunno.  we wouldn't suggest that the poe paladin is flexible.  in fact, they is a bit like a toy robot that you wind up and then set loose.  they just kinda keep grinding, seemingly unstoppable, til they run into a wall or some stairs.  

 

if you want to make a paladin that hits hard, you better plan out talents and abilities with some scrutiny as their role is as low-maintenance support character with impressive defensive characteristics.  you can indeed makes a paladin capable o' delivering the smackdown, but doing so tends to require the sacrifice o' their support abilities or resilience.  

 

there is more than a few intriguing builds possible for the paladin.  that being said, we kinda feel bad that the beta community were able to discourage the developers from maintaining the core philosophy o' the class.  

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?hl=paladin

 

the improvements sought by the community is not directed to accent the paladin as envisioned by obsidian.  instead, players want the poe paladin to be more like paladins from other games, the ie games in particular.  example: paladins weren't heavy hitters, so we got a d&d smite ability.  

 

*shrug*

 

paladin improvements would be better spent on making the class better in support.  make the paladin a better low-maintenance support character with impressive defensive characteristics.  there is already dps/striker classes and tank classes amongst the 11 poe offerings.  further attempts to make the paladin capable o' filling all roles defeats the whole point o' having eleven unique classes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 13, 2015 by Gromnir

[Laz0r]

Paladin's are complete **** unless they're your main character. I was able to create one effective build with a paladin, I'm sure there might be others, but this is just what I came up with.

 

Race: Moon God-like

Why? Because they don't have constant recovery (paladins) like fighters do, and the moonbros pretty much have one of the best endurance regen stats in the game.

 

Stats: 19/10/19/10/10/10

Why? This build relies on two things, abusing the moonbros passive as much as possible and getting your face beat in to do it. You need might because without might your passive sucks, and you need dexterity because you're going to be wearing full plate armor and your attack speed is going to suck ass if you don't have it. Essentially monsters are going to smash you in the face, your going to proc your passive and heal your main tank, all while doing somewhat respectable damage. You will use two one handers, both with drain on them, and take the 30% attack speed bonus for one handers. Getting int on a paladin is pointless because it doesn't effect your auras in a way that will benefit anyone. At max int, your aura goes from 2.5m to 3.5m, but since your going to be right on top of your tank, this doesn't matter anyways.

 

This build is by no means amazing, but I've been using it and it's working. It'll work on PotD, but you have to remember that this character is not your main tank, he's an off-tank. Honestly, you're still going to get outclassed by a fighter, but I think this can work fairly well.

[Infares]

I've found paladins to be more useful as midline buffers and healers due to Kind Wayfarer abilities. 

[Laz0r]

I've found paladins to be more useful as midline buffers and healers due to Kind Wayfarer abilities. 

Yep, you're right, if you can stomach playing as a Kind Wayfarer. Personally I find NPCs annoying and always have this strong urge to murder them all, so I chose bleak-walkers.

[Brimsurfer]

OK I get it, so Paladin basically turns out to be a mediocre warrior with mediocre AoE buffs, in this game.

 

I expected Paladin to be a AAA+ class from my experience in BG and IWD games.....but I guess i'll be better off as a priest or a druid, they seem to be stronger options here.

[Gromnir]

the paladin has excellent buffs, debuffs and cleanses, but the paladin is not nearly as versatile as a priest.   the paladin is a strong addition to the poe class lineup, but its role is misunderstood.... and it can be boring.  the poe paladin is s'posed to play more like a 4e warlord or 3.5 marshal than an ie game paladin. 

 

have said it before, but the biggest mistake obsidian made with a few o' the classes were nothing more than their naming conventions.  give very different poe classes the same names as ie classes were a mistake, and no matter how many times developers post stating that a poe paladin is not an ie paladin, some folks can't give up the ghost.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Epsilon Rose]

the paladin has excellent buffs, debuffs and cleanses, but the paladin is not nearly as versatile as a priest.   the paladin is a strong addition to the poe class lineup, but its role is misunderstood.... and it can be boring.  the poe paladin is s'posed to play more like a 4e warlord or 3.5 marshal than an ie game paladin. 

 

have said it before, but the biggest mistake obsidian made with a few o' the classes were nothing more than their naming conventions.  give very different poe classes the same names as ie classes were a mistake, and no matter how many times developers post stating that a poe paladin is not an ie paladin, some folks can't give up the ghost.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I'd argue that their biggest mistake was taking to much from D&D in general. The names are a bit problematic (though most of them are fairly archetypal even outside of D&D), but their are too many bad or half done mechanics as well. I'd point to per rest abilities and rests in general as the largest offenders.

[Laz0r]

the paladin has excellent buffs, debuffs and cleanses, but the paladin is not nearly as versatile as a priest.   the paladin is a strong addition to the poe class lineup, but its role is misunderstood.... and it can be boring.  the poe paladin is s'posed to play more like a 4e warlord or 3.5 marshal than an ie game paladin. 

 

have said it before, but the biggest mistake obsidian made with a few o' the classes were nothing more than their naming conventions.  give very different poe classes the same names as ie classes were a mistake, and no matter how many times developers post stating that a poe paladin is not an ie paladin, some folks can't give up the ghost.

 

HA! Good Fun!

You're right, but the Paladin can be replaced in any role and get stomped by any other class in the game.

 

HA! Good fun!

[Infares]

the paladin has excellent buffs, debuffs and cleanses, but the paladin is not nearly as versatile as a priest.   the paladin is a strong addition to the poe class lineup, but its role is misunderstood.... and it can be boring.  the poe paladin is s'posed to play more like a 4e warlord or 3.5 marshal than an ie game paladin. 

 

have said it before, but the biggest mistake obsidian made with a few o' the classes were nothing more than their naming conventions.  give very different poe classes the same names as ie classes were a mistake, and no matter how many times developers post stating that a poe paladin is not an ie paladin, some folks can't give up the ghost.

Sure enough. If they'd renamed it "The Champion" or something like that, it still has a Paladin-esque vibe without setting up massive preconceptions.

[MoxyWoo]

Longknife did a great job bringing up the issues with the Paladin class in a constructive manner as well as solutions for the class.  Very assertive and awesome.

 

I'd add on that Paladins can be "okay" for the Darcozzi ones due to the retaliation based build you can get off it with the fire shield talent.  It does it much earlier than the barbarian fire tank, has the high defenses from paladin to avoid crits, and finally targets reflex much like they can target fortitude, which makes it very good for the 15 seconds of each flames of devotions (or 30 secs total + int modifier) you get off it.  I still like moon god like for the race, but double dipping with fire god like is also an option.

 

So up to level 5 they are equal to barbarians in that role.  The problem is after that, they suffer from all the points brought up in the other thread, along with VERY limited use of their abilities.  

 

Other bugs or features?

-Lash/Flames of devotion is all just an additive damage modifier that isn't effected by DR sometimes.  So a bleakwalker paladin with +100%  (50% flames +25%x2 talents) can get some nasty hits via dual wielding (due to the full attack)... But only 2/encounter.  Soon as you add a proper lash item, it seems DR is checked as normal  (least from my testing of it).  Example:  I hit for 20 (25 - 5 DR) and my flame does 12.5.  But soon as I add a lash item, it becomes 10 dmg.

-The above means any talents like Scions of Flame doesn't work on Flames of Devotion.

-Flame shield from Darcozzi is a melee attack.  Drain items work with it.  Scaling seems bad on it per level.

-Holy Radiance (Priest) works for stacking of accuracy with Zealous Aim.

-Flame shield is unaffected by what weapon you have equipped unlike retaliation.  It does benefit from talents/modifiers though.

[Brimsurfer]

................... and no matter how many times developers post stating that a poe paladin is not an ie paladin, some folks can't give up the ghost.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I was unaware that Devs ever said such a thing, I guess i missed it.

 

But still that doesn't change the fact that most of the player base considers Paladin, an underdog. At least that's the impression that I am getting from the forums, I have never played Paladin in PoE to the extent where I can confidently say anything about the class but that is the reason why I started this topic......

[eubatham]

I'd argue that their biggest mistake was taking to much from D&D in general. The names are a bit problematic (though most of them are fairly archetypal even outside of D&D), but their are too many bad or half done mechanics as well. I'd point to per rest abilities and rests in general as the largest offenders.

 

 

I'm also thinking that the root of many issues that Paladin currently has, is due to that most of their abilities make more sense if they were at will, i.e. instant and without eating up an entire action. The game not being turnbased and/or that you can't stack multiple abilities in one action, kinda makes them hard to implement though.

Edited April 13, 2015 by eubatham

[B4nJ0]

Paladin were also the worst class in BG by far (with ranger and monk) from a min/maxing POW if not for that ULTRA cheesy inquisitor dispell (even if hard mods rebalanced it) and Carsomyr...

In the end I usually Avoid it with the good old kensai9/rogue to pick up Carsomyr, with the other 3 kensai9/mages doing the real things (sometimes throw in a bers9/cleric to do smthing else just to not feel THAT cheesy)

 

Rly, it was like a class with ZERO features aside from an "enter godlike buttom - Dispell" and "enter godlike weapon - Carsomyr".

 

AD&D... yeah...

[Gromnir]

 

the paladin has excellent buffs, debuffs and cleanses, but the paladin is not nearly as versatile as a priest.   the paladin is a strong addition to the poe class lineup, but its role is misunderstood.... and it can be boring.  the poe paladin is s'posed to play more like a 4e warlord or 3.5 marshal than an ie game paladin. 

 

have said it before, but the biggest mistake obsidian made with a few o' the classes were nothing more than their naming conventions.  give very different poe classes the same names as ie classes were a mistake, and no matter how many times developers post stating that a poe paladin is not an ie paladin, some folks can't give up the ghost.

 

HA! Good Fun!

You're right, but the Paladin can be replaced in any role and get stomped by any other class in the game.

 

HA! Good fun!

 

is maybe not a fair criticism o' the paladin, but it has enough truth to warrant a response.  

 

the paladin is not as good a tank as the fighter, though some folks very vehemently disagree.  on the other hand, the paladin kicks the fighter's arse at support functions such as buffing, debuffing and cleansing.  

 

the paladin will not be doing melee or ranged damage to eclipse the rogue, even if you build the paladin as pure dps.  even so, the striker paladin laughs at rogue party buffs, and is far better from an overall defensive pov.  even the limited function retaliation rogue don't have paladin defenses across the board.  

 

cc o' wizards and druids?  no, the paladin doesn't compare, but see above for rogue and fighter comparisons.  the paladin ain't s'posed to compete with the wizard and druid in a cc role.

 

the priest.  well, as a big fan o' priests, we will observe that they take a great deal o' micromanagement and they are squishy.  so, if we want a less squishy support character that we not need to hand hold or hoard spells til halfway through the game, the paladin makes for a fine alternative.

 

am not a fan of chanters til level 9 or so.  chanters can be almost as good in a tanky role as paladins, and their chants and invocations are quite powerful.  the thing is, unless you got two chanters in a party, the chants is fading in and out o' application, and battles is over far too frequent for us to make use o' chanter invocations.  we find chanters to be big ugly teases.  they should be great, and perhaps they are great, but so far we ain't been able to exploit their potential without having two chanters in a party, and we don't want that either.  typically, when first reaching defiance bay, we dump the chanter and recruit the paladin.  

 

the paladin is a unique class, and it can be effective in any number o' party configurations... and for players such as Gromnir who refuse to wait on prima donna chanters.

 

"But still that doesn't change the fact that most of the player base considers Paladin, an underdog."

 

most o' the player base doesn't want the poe paladin to be a poe paladin-- they want an ie paladin.  as we noted above, we suspect that the name is an insurmountable hurdle.  change name to champion as infares suggests and a vast majority o' paladin complaints would disappear.  however, your confusion about the paladin is not genuine your fault.  no, the actual paladin archetype does not require that it be a great crpg striker/dps and have excellent tanky qualities to boot.  but crpg conventions, being what they are, does result in certain reasonable expectations regarding classes, and obsidian has done a less than stellar job o' convincing the fan base that crpg preconceptions about paladins don't match the poe version.  in fact, the obsidians has incrementally but inexorably caved to the expectations o' the fans rather than making the poe paladin a better POE paladin.

 

HA! Good Fun!